HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Central Division > Colorado Avalanche
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Rayan O'Rayli , From Russia with love

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-22-2013, 12:45 PM
  #351
finds71
Registered User
 
finds71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Canada
Country: France
Posts: 639
vCash: 500
Hopefully this whole situation will reveal if Duchene and Statsny could be a real #1-#2 punch....

finds71 is offline  
Old
01-22-2013, 12:46 PM
  #352
Bender
TheHockeyProspector
 
Bender's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,948
vCash: 7658
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
We have a murky relationship imo. Think back to Lappy, Bruno, Hendricks, Andy, Quincey, etc. While Andy and Quincey were for good reason, the way we treated guys like Lappy and Bruno was pathetic. Hendricks was just being stubborn for the sake of being stubborn, the guy was everything short of the McClement of 4th line centers for us and we wouldn't offer him a 1-way deal.
I'm not sure how not offering those players contracts and allowing them to become UFAs and sign with other teams is treating them in a pathetic fashion?? The club has a right to make a decision and go in another direction, just like every single club in the league. This happens EVERY YEAR to like 30-40 guys.

Why is it 'a business' when PLAYERS want the most $$$$ on their contracts but when teams don't send players an offer and let them become free agents, it's no longer a business and they're suddendly being mistreated?

Yeah, maybe the Avs didn't call up Mueller to tell him, 'hey bubby, good luck in the future, we're not going to offer you a contract' but to hear Mueller being PUZZLED by this after 32GP and 16PTS and $4M+ over 2 years is beyond ludicrous. They shouldn't have to spell it out for him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
Every team has tonnes of players that leave. That's the nature of the business. Avs fans have an obsession for interpreting it in an ominous way.

Sometimes the player is a poor fit for one reason or another. Sometimes it doesn't make sense to pay him what it would take. Sometimes the player wants to leave. Sometimes the organization makes a mistake letting a player go.
Yes, this exactly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockLobster View Post
People forget Duchene's first year. Hejduk had had an established chemistry/rapport w/ Stastny as his Center.

Coming into that year Hejduk was still regarded as a Top Line winger.

Duchene was handed Hejduk on his line.
That's inaccurate. I remember distinctly Duchene starting with Tucker and apparently Svatos. I knew that Stastny started the year with Wolski and Hejduk. As the year progressed, Stastny gained chemistry with Galiardi and STEWART which dropped Hejduk onto a line with Duchene.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...9&postcount=27

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockLobster View Post
People often forget that Forsberg once vowed never to play in an Avalanche uniform again, though to be fair that was because of their handling of Adam Deadmarsh and them trading him (if I recall didn't Deader re-sign w/ us before being traded?)

However, the case being, that there his historical precedence to show how the Avalanche treat certain players.
I follow this organization pretty closely and I don't remember Forsberg ever mentioning this at all. Where did you get this from?

Bender is online now  
Old
01-22-2013, 01:03 PM
  #353
Foppa2118
Registered User
 
Foppa2118's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: 22 Acacia Avenue
Country: United States
Posts: 18,712
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bender View Post



I follow this organization pretty closely and I don't remember Forsberg ever mentioning this at all. Where did you get this from?
Yea, I'm pretty sure Forsberg never said anything like that. That's not his style anyway.

Foppa2118 is offline  
Old
01-22-2013, 01:06 PM
  #354
Bordeleau Of Blood
Archangel
 
Bordeleau Of Blood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Country: United States
Posts: 2,159
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bender View Post
I follow this organization pretty closely and I don't remember Forsberg ever mentioning this at all. Where did you get this from?
It was in Dater's book, "Blood Feud."

Bordeleau Of Blood is offline  
Old
01-22-2013, 01:11 PM
  #355
Foppa2118
Registered User
 
Foppa2118's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: 22 Acacia Avenue
Country: United States
Posts: 18,712
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omar Comin View Post
It was in Dater's book, "Blood Feud."
Out of curiosity, does anyone know the exact quote? I never read it. I knew there were rumors he was really upset with the timing because of Deader's kids still being in the hospital born premature, but all he said publicly was things like this.

Quote:
"We came in the league at the same time, we've been roommates, we've been really good friends for a long time ... .I'm so sad that he's leaving," Forsberg said of Deadmarsh. "But it's part of the business so I just have to go on."
http://www.deadmarsh1828.net/Forsberg.html

Foppa2118 is offline  
Old
01-22-2013, 01:16 PM
  #356
Foppa2118
Registered User
 
Foppa2118's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: 22 Acacia Avenue
Country: United States
Posts: 18,712
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
Out of curiosity, does anyone know the exact quote? I never read it. I knew there were rumors he was really upset with the timing because of Deader's kids still being in the hospital born premature, but all he said publicly was things like this.



http://www.deadmarsh1828.net/Forsberg.html
Actually I just found this old blog from Dater. Not sure if it's worded the same as the book, but it's slightly different than vowing never to play again. More like a strong emotional initial reaction of not wanting to re-sign when his contract was up, but who knows in what context that was said, and to whom.

Quote:
If you read my book “Blood Feud”, you’ll come across a passage where, when Deadmarsh was traded to the Kings in 2001, Forsberg was so upset at first he vowed never to sign another contract with the Avs again. Cooler heads prevailed, of course, and he did play longer for the Avs,
http://blogs.denverpost.com/avs/2008...sh-family/291/

Foppa2118 is offline  
Old
01-22-2013, 01:25 PM
  #357
RockLobster
Moderator
Beatles Guru
 
RockLobster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Kansas
Country: Germany
Posts: 11,881
vCash: 905
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bender View Post
I follow this organization pretty closely and I don't remember Forsberg ever mentioning this at all. Where did you get this from?
As Omar said, it was documented in Blood Feud, and as I recall in my journalism class in college, if you're writing a book that is defined as "Non-Fiction" then you can't write things that aren't true.

RockLobster is online now  
Old
01-22-2013, 01:27 PM
  #358
RockLobster
Moderator
Beatles Guru
 
RockLobster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Kansas
Country: Germany
Posts: 11,881
vCash: 905
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
Actually I just found this old blog from Dater. Not sure if it's worded the same as the book, but it's slightly different than vowing never to play again. More like a strong emotional initial reaction of not wanting to re-sign when his contract was up, but who knows in what context that was said, and to whom.



http://blogs.denverpost.com/avs/2008...sh-family/291/
I'm not sure how "vowing to never sign another contract w/ the Avalanche" is overwhelmingly different from "vowing to never play for the team again", other than having to finish out his contract at the time.

The gist is, it has happened with even their Star players like Forsberg.

RockLobster is online now  
Old
01-22-2013, 01:28 PM
  #359
Hennessy
Blank Space
 
Hennessy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Östersund, Sweden
Country: United States
Posts: 6,785
vCash: 1100
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockLobster View Post
People forget Duchene's first year. Hejduk had had an established chemistry/rapport w/ Stastny as his Center.

Coming into that year Hejduk was still regarded as a Top Line winger.

Duchene was handed Hejduk on his line.
So grooming your brand-new acquisition who is expected/hoped to become the face and focus of your franchise is now coddling? Having him play with a proven, veteran winger somehow translates into a negative or an insult?

Come on. By that logic, O'Reilly was coddled by getting Landeskog. Or, heck...Hejduk.

Hennessy is offline  
Old
01-22-2013, 01:32 PM
  #360
RockLobster
Moderator
Beatles Guru
 
RockLobster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Kansas
Country: Germany
Posts: 11,881
vCash: 905
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hennessy View Post
So grooming your brand-new acquisition who is expected/hoped to become the face and focus of your franchise is now coddling? Having him play with a proven, veteran winger somehow translates into a negative or an insult?

Come on. By that logic, O'Reilly was coddled by getting Landeskog. Or, heck...Hejduk.
I was only playing Devi's Advocate when I believed the statement that Foppa made was that the Avalanche haven't coddled any players, later he stated that he meant in Contract Negotiations, when I believed he meant in terms of the playing.

I had even apologized for this.

But I believe that Duchene was coddled a bit as a rookie, and I don't mean to say that it is a bad thing, just that I believe he was.

I don't think that Landeskog was coddled coming in, he was placed on what was perceived to be the 3rd line, but that line performed way above expectations and became the 1st line.

RockLobster is online now  
Old
01-22-2013, 01:49 PM
  #361
Zih
Dater's Gonna Hate
 
Zih's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Colorado
Country: United States
Posts: 2,301
vCash: 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by finds71 View Post
Hopefully this whole situation will reveal if Duchene and Statsny could be a real #1-#2 punch....
I'm betting that we won't like the answer to this. Stastny's been on the decline for several years now and Duchene has no chemistry with anyone on the team.

Zih is offline  
Old
01-22-2013, 02:04 PM
  #362
Huis Clos*
Creamy Hamstrings
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Ballarado
Country: United States
Posts: 6,020
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zih View Post
I'm betting that we won't like the answer to this. Stastny's been on the decline for several years now and Duchene has no chemistry with anyone on the team.
Several years is an over exaggeration.

Huis Clos* is offline  
Old
01-22-2013, 02:25 PM
  #363
Foppa2118
Registered User
 
Foppa2118's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: 22 Acacia Avenue
Country: United States
Posts: 18,712
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockLobster View Post
I'm not sure how "vowing to never sign another contract w/ the Avalanche" is overwhelmingly different from "vowing to never play for the team again", other than having to finish out his contract at the time.

The gist is, it has happened with even their Star players like Forsberg.
No it's not overwhelmingly different but I think it's slightly different like I said.

We're kind of getting into semantics, and I think your basic point was proven either way, but to me personally "vowed never to play again" sounds like never play even one game again, like what Roy said to Montreal. Where as "vowed never to sign a contract again" is something in the future that could obviously change with time, like it did.

Again, just a slight semantic difference IMO, but your point stands.

Foppa2118 is offline  
Old
01-22-2013, 02:26 PM
  #364
RockLobster
Moderator
Beatles Guru
 
RockLobster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Kansas
Country: Germany
Posts: 11,881
vCash: 905
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
No it's not overwhelmingly different but I think it's slightly different like I said.

We're kind of getting into semantics, and I think your basic point was proven either way, but to me personally "vowed never to play again" sounds like never play even one game again, like what Roy said to Montreal. Where as "vowed never to sign a contract again" is something in the future that could obviously change with time, like it did.

Again, just a slight semantic difference IMO, but your point stands.
And on your end, I would agree, a poor choice of words on my end, however I am at work and didn't have the book with me to check it out again.

FYI, for those who haven't read it, I know AD isn't popular on these boards, but Blood Feud IS a great read, I highly recommend it.

RockLobster is online now  
Old
01-22-2013, 02:34 PM
  #365
Foppa2118
Registered User
 
Foppa2118's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: 22 Acacia Avenue
Country: United States
Posts: 18,712
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockLobster View Post
And on your end, I would agree, a poor choice of words on my end, however I am at work and didn't have the book with me to check it out again.

FYI, for those who haven't read it, I know AD isn't popular on these boards, but Blood Feud IS a great read, I highly recommend it.
I've always wanted to read it, just never have the time to dedicate to reading much.

Foppa2118 is offline  
Old
01-22-2013, 02:44 PM
  #366
Bender
TheHockeyProspector
 
Bender's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,948
vCash: 7658
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockLobster View Post
I'm not sure how "vowing to never sign another contract w/ the Avalanche" is overwhelmingly different from "vowing to never play for the team again", other than having to finish out his contract at the time.

The gist is, it has happened with even their Star players like Forsberg.
So because the Avs traded Adam Deadmarsh to get ROB BLAKE and another Stanley Cup, they somehow did something wrong? When you say 'it happened with even their star players', WHAT exactly happened? It's HOCKEY. Players get traded all the time.

Again, it can't just be 'a business' when it suits the players' needs and NOT when it suits the owners' needs. It's part of being a HOCKEY PLAYER and has nothing to do with the organization or how they treat their players. Let's say for fun, they DON'T make that swap because of the timing of Deadmarsh's twins and the Kings trade Blake to DETROIT instead. Would that of been better? Gimme a break.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zih View Post
I'm betting that we won't like the answer to this. Stastny's been on the decline for several years now and Duchene has no chemistry with anyone on the team.
Yeah clearly.

2009-10 - Mueller & Hejduk - 55 point season (Terrible Chemistry)
2010-11 - Fleischmann & Hejduk - 67 point season (Horrible Chemistry)
2011-12 - Injured Mueller+Hejduk with the C & career lows+ on LW with Stastny + Injured - injury plagued season
2012-13 - 6 days of practice + 1 regular season game (ZERO CHEMISTRY - take him out behind the barn and shoot him)


Bender is online now  
Old
01-22-2013, 03:09 PM
  #367
Avs For Life
#92 #9 #29
 
Avs For Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Denver, CO
Country: United States
Posts: 3,556
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bender View Post
So because the Avs traded Adam Deadmarsh to get ROB BLAKE and another Stanley Cup, they somehow did something wrong? When you say 'it happened with even their star players', WHAT exactly happened? It's HOCKEY. Players get traded all the time.

Again, it can't just be 'a business' when it suits the players' needs and NOT when it suits the owners' needs. It's part of being a HOCKEY PLAYER and has nothing to do with the organization or how they treat their players. Let's say for fun, they DON'T make that swap because of the timing of Deadmarsh's twins and the Kings trade Blake to DETROIT instead. Would that of been better? Gimme a break.



Yeah clearly.

2009-10 - Mueller & Hejduk - 55 point season (Terrible Chemistry)
2010-11 - Fleischmann & Hejduk - 67 point season (Horrible Chemistry)
2011-12 - Injured Mueller+Hejduk with the C & career lows+ on LW with Stastny + Injured - injury plagued season
2012-13 - 6 days of practice + 1 regular season game (ZERO CHEMISTRY - take him out behind the barn and shoot him)

I usually just lurk these forums reading peoples opinions about the Avs...

I had to log on...this was GREAT post! I salute you sir

Avs For Life is offline  
Old
01-22-2013, 03:14 PM
  #368
henchman24
#ImagineAvs
 
henchman24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 10,745
vCash: 500
If Deadmarsh and Forsberg were really hurt by that move neither would have come back to the organization. The Avs track record is pretty simple, if they have room and THEY feel you have earned it they will give you a fair contract and treat you with respect. If they don't feel you are useful or are not in their plan anymore they will toss you aside and move on.

henchman24 is offline  
Old
01-22-2013, 03:22 PM
  #369
Bubba Thudd
Moderator
#AvsNewAge
 
Bubba Thudd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Avaland
Posts: 12,563
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by henchman24 View Post
If Deadmarsh and Forsberg were really hurt by that move neither would have come back to the organization. The Avs track record is pretty simple, if they have room and THEY feel you have earned it they will give you a fair contract and treat you with respect. If they don't feel you are useful or are not in their plan anymore they will toss you aside and move on.
In this case, I think a good part of the problem is how ROR went about it...signing in the KHL for 2 years, etc.

Bubba Thudd is offline  
Old
01-22-2013, 03:24 PM
  #370
henchman24
#ImagineAvs
 
henchman24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 10,745
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Thudd View Post
In this case, I think a good part of the problem is how ROR went about it...signing in the KHL for 2 years, etc.
Totally agree. If ROR doesn't sign for 2 years, but signs a 1 year deal with a NHL out right when the lockout ended, he would be here today.

henchman24 is offline  
Old
01-22-2013, 03:43 PM
  #371
avalanchuck
Registered User
 
avalanchuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Denver, CO
Country: United States
Posts: 499
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Thudd View Post
In this case, I think a good part of the problem is how ROR went about it...signing in the KHL for 2 years, etc.
Now my question is did ROR (or his agent) assume that the entire season was going to be lost to the lockout (like last time) and that 2 year KHL contract give him "leverage" (perceived or not) with the Avs management for when the NHL resumed games next fall?

avalanchuck is offline  
Old
01-22-2013, 03:49 PM
  #372
henchman24
#ImagineAvs
 
henchman24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 10,745
vCash: 500
Maybe we are all missing something and the new Cup of Hope was all Brian O'Reilly's idea, and Reilly O and Cal just really want to be supportive of their father.

henchman24 is offline  
Old
01-22-2013, 03:54 PM
  #373
Avs For Life
#92 #9 #29
 
Avs For Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Denver, CO
Country: United States
Posts: 3,556
vCash: 500
Just curious, it sounds like we offered 5 yrs 17 mil and one point...

what about 5 yrs 18 mil. It gives him slightly more than Duchene...but then again he was coming off a better season and puts him at 3.6 mil a year.

Not a HUGE amount more than Duchene got but maybe enough to bring him home? Or is he really all about 4+ mill a year?

Avs For Life is offline  
Old
01-22-2013, 04:00 PM
  #374
RockLobster
Moderator
Beatles Guru
 
RockLobster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Kansas
Country: Germany
Posts: 11,881
vCash: 905
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bender View Post
So because the Avs traded Adam Deadmarsh to get ROB BLAKE and another Stanley Cup, they somehow did something wrong? When you say 'it happened with even their star players', WHAT exactly happened? It's HOCKEY. Players get traded all the time.

Again, it can't just be 'a business' when it suits the players' needs and NOT when it suits the owners' needs. It's part of being a HOCKEY PLAYER and has nothing to do with the organization or how they treat their players. Let's say for fun, they DON'T make that swap because of the timing of Deadmarsh's twins and the Kings trade Blake to DETROIT instead. Would that of been better? Gimme a break.
The thing is though, we're not sure of the entire circumstances surrounding WHY Forsberg was upset. I've tried to do a Google search for Adam Deadmarsh's contract history, because I am believing that he had just recently re-signed with the team, only to be traded afterwards.

Point is, we don't know the extent. What we know, is that whatever the circumstances surrounding Deader being traded (and yes, Blake was essential to the Cup Run) it pissed Forsberg off enough to the point that he did say that he didn't want to re-sign with the team again.

Now ABSOLUTELY, I agree with you. Trades are apart of the business. And I don't think that players should take Trades personally, or should take contract negotiations personally...to a point.

I think players can take it personally if the situation turns toxic and just turns into a case of a team LOOKING for things that they can say a player lacks, like what can happen in an Arbitration setting.

What I've been trying to maintain, is what I've said all along. That I think we need to cut Ryan some slack. Whether or not you would agree with the items I've put on the table as reasoning for my believing that he needs to be cut some slack, that's fine if you don't. I would still respect you as a poster Bender, but I don't want my opinion devauled just because we happen to be on opposite sides of this particular issue.

RockLobster is online now  
Old
01-22-2013, 05:07 PM
  #375
Foppa2118
Registered User
 
Foppa2118's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: 22 Acacia Avenue
Country: United States
Posts: 18,712
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avs For Life View Post
Just curious, it sounds like we offered 5 yrs 17 mil and one point...

what about 5 yrs 18 mil. It gives him slightly more than Duchene...but then again he was coming off a better season and puts him at 3.6 mil a year.

Not a HUGE amount more than Duchene got but maybe enough to bring him home? Or is he really all about 4+ mill a year?
All they have to do is offer him more than two years, and it eliminates the need to match Duchene's number. Dutchy has the chance to earn fairly big if he plays well on his next deal, and that could make up for the difference.

It just depends on how close they are in terms of the number for a 3+ year deal, and I get the feeling they're not close. Mark Guy denied $5M was the number for the two year deal, but didn't mention anything about the long term number.

So that's potentially $1.5M apart.

Foppa2118 is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:00 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.