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Old
01-15-2013, 02:22 PM
  #51
Killion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBlondeDemon10 View Post
This may be a subject for another thread, but does Daigle succeed if he is drafted in 1983 instead of 1993?.
No, Id say Daigles' a "bust" in any era as by his own admission his head & heart just wasnt into it past Junior. If anything, had he been around during the "Me Generation" of the 70's & early 80's, he might have actually quit altogether and never made it to the Draft.... here are a few more.

1964
Claude Gauthier (Detroit)
1970 Ray Martyniuk (Goalie, Montreal)
1974 Cam Connor (Montreal, taken ahead of Pierre Larouche & Bryan Trottier etc)

and my (sorry, not 1-5 but still) favourite...

1973
Morris Titanic (Buffalo, 12th overall, only played 19G's, knee injury)

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Old
01-15-2013, 03:16 PM
  #52
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1963-66 Drafts

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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
No, Id say Daigles' a "bust" in any era as by his own admission his head & heart just wasnt into it past Junior. If anything, had he been around during the "Me Generation" of the 70's & early 80's, he might have actually quit altogether and never made it to the Draft.... here are a few more.

1964
Claude Gauthier (Detroit)
1970 Ray Martyniuk (Goalie, Montreal)
1974 Cam Connor (Montreal, taken ahead of Pierre Larouche & Bryan Trottier etc)

and my (sorry, not 1-5 but still) favourite...

1973
Morris Titanic (Buffalo, 12th overall, only played 19G's, knee injury)
1963-66 Drafts especially for Montreal area players were very puzzling.

Basically leftovers after the Canadiens had culled the area or holdouts that the Canadiens drafted on a few occasions:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/draf...4_amateur.html

Draft order tended to reflect a willingness/ability to play Junior in Ontario as opposed to talent.

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01-15-2013, 03:50 PM
  #53
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This guy seems to be a pretty big forgotten bust

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Henrich

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01-15-2013, 05:14 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
1963-66 Drafts especially for Montreal area players were very puzzling.
Im thinking there was still some chicanery going on as they transitioned from the old Sponsorship & Form system to the Draft format. According to some anecdotal & first hand experiences, many players were in fact still being dealt with under the Form system as late as 1970, having never actually been drafted nor suited up with the NHL club holding their rights when they'd signed amateur contracts be it in Montreal, Toronto, Winnipeg or elsewhere. Unspoken agreements if you will amongst some of the 06'rs.

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01-15-2013, 06:03 PM
  #55
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Drafts and Forms

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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Im thinking there was still some chicanery going on as they transitioned from the old Sponsorship & Form system to the Draft format. According to some anecdotal & first hand experiences, many players were in fact still being dealt with under the Form system as late as 1970, having never actually been drafted nor suited up with the NHL club holding their rights when they'd signed amateur contracts be it in Montreal, Toronto, Winnipeg or elsewhere. Unspoken agreements if you will amongst some of the 06'rs.
Draft and form rights in those days were in perpetuity plus you could go the US college route after playing major junior then play for Father David Bauer,etc yet the O6 team still held your rights.

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01-15-2013, 11:08 PM
  #56
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Pavel Brendl, 4th pick, followed by Jamie Lundmark, 9th pick. A double whammy. Throw on top of that, giving up Cloutier and Sundstrom, plus a 1st and 3rd in order to get the 4th pick. Double bust plus insult to injury. Cost Neil Smith his job.

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01-15-2013, 11:21 PM
  #57
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I'd have to say for the Leafs, probably the 1989 draft of Scott Thornton, Rob Pearson and Steve Bancroft with three picks in the top 21, if only to contrast those sluggish, no skilled picks with what another Original Six club like the Detroit Red Wings were able to accomplish that day, picking up Sergei Fedorov, Nicklas Lidstrom, Vladimir Konstantinov, (and Dallas Drake and Mike Sillinger who played over 1000 games) forming the foundation for two decades of success. Just devastating ineptitude in the worst way given the kind of plodding no talent trio of Belleville Bulls plugs we got that miserable day.

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01-16-2013, 01:30 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
Examples of category 1 include Daniel Dore, Jason Bonsignore, Alexander Volchkov, and Pavel Brendl, while examples of category 2 include Alexandre Daigle and Brian Lawton. A guy like Patrik Stefan, who was picked 1st overall but in a bad draft and managed 7 mediocre NHL seasons, doesn't really scream "biggest bust" to me.
Stefan played 161 fewer games than Daigle and scored 139 fewer points. Just FYI. Stefan is EASILY a bigger bust than Daigle; Daigle was better than 0.50 PPG, while Stefan was well under. And that doesn't even account for teammates. Stefan scored exactly 40 points once for his career high, Daigle cleared the mark four times, and was on pace to do it two other times (once because of injury, once lockout).

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Originally Posted by tony d View Post
Alexandre Volchov was mentioned earlier and I agree. While the 1996 draft may have been one of the worst in the draft's history some pretty good talent came out of it. Washington is a defenseman away, IMO, from being a Cup contender well Zdeno Chara who was picked many picks later could have helped the Caps out there.
Chara was absolutely terrible as an Islander, and it was due to his inept skating. He was a complete pylon. It wasn't until he was traded to Ottawa and improved his skating that he became an effective defenseman. There's no guarantee that happens in Washington.

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01-18-2013, 11:23 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
I'd have to say for the Leafs, probably the 1989 draft of Scott Thornton, Rob Pearson and Steve Bancroft with three picks in the top 21, if only to contrast those sluggish, no skilled picks with what another Original Six club like the Detroit Red Wings were able to accomplish that day, picking up Sergei Fedorov, Nicklas Lidstrom, Vladimir Konstantinov, (and Dallas Drake and Mike Sillinger who played over 1000 games) forming the foundation for two decades of success. Just devastating ineptitude in the worst way given the kind of plodding no talent trio of Belleville Bulls plugs we got that miserable day.
Not that you're bitter or anything .

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01-18-2013, 11:25 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Bruwinz37 View Post
Doug Wickenheiser is a name I am surprised I havent read yet. Serviceable NHLer, but for a #1 pick who had 170 points in his draft year he has to be considered a bust.
Came here to post this. This thread needs more Doug Wickenheiser. Especially when you consider that Dave Babych, Denis Savard, Larry Murphy, and Paul Coffey were all drafted right after him.

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01-18-2013, 04:16 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by EvilEmpire94 View Post
Hugh Jessiman haunts me in my dreams
Jessiman was still better than the guy the Leafs drafted in the first round in 03 .... Nobody.

They traded their pick in the deepest draft ever for an over the hill Owen Nolan.

With stellar moves like that it's no wonder that they haven't made the playoffs since the last lockout.

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01-18-2013, 10:03 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Stefan played 161 fewer games than Daigle and scored 139 fewer points. Just FYI. Stefan is EASILY a bigger bust than Daigle; Daigle was better than 0.50 PPG, while Stefan was well under. And that doesn't even account for teammates. Stefan scored exactly 40 points once for his career high, Daigle cleared the mark four times, and was on pace to do it two other times (once because of injury, once lockout).
Daigle was a better scorer, if only because he had tons of opportunity on awful teams.

But I don't think his 86 points in 157 games in his late 20s after coming back from a two year retirement change his status as a draft bust at all. At that point he was a long way from providing any value to his drafting team. Cut off his numbers after 2000 when he first retired and they're very close to Stefan's career numbers. And Stefan played more games and scored more points in Atlanta than Daigle in Ottawa.

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01-19-2013, 12:09 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Billy6 View Post
Jessiman was still better than the guy the Leafs drafted in the first round in 03 .... Nobody.

They traded their pick in the deepest draft ever for an over the hill Owen Nolan.

With stellar moves like that it's no wonder that they haven't made the playoffs since the last lockout.
Yeah but in hindsight we got more use out of an over the hill Owen Nolan than the Rangers did with Jessiman, and Mark Stuart isn't exactly fantastic... it was bad but could have been worse had the Rags picked Corey Perry or something.

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01-19-2013, 12:54 AM
  #64
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Greg Joly comes to mind. I think he played the fewest games of any #1 pick.

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01-19-2013, 08:10 AM
  #65
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1990 first round draft picks as they were called: Owen Nolan (Quebec), Petr Nedved (Canucks), Keith Primeau (Red Wings), Mike Ricci (Flyers), Jaromir Jagr (Penguins), Scott Scissons (Islanders), Darryl Sydor (Kings) and Derian Hatcher (North Stars).

Scissons played two regular season and one play-off game without any points. The rest of listed played each at least 900 games in the NHL.

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01-22-2013, 07:42 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by flyin_finn View Post
1990 first round draft picks as they were called: Owen Nolan (Quebec), Petr Nedved (Canucks), Keith Primeau (Red Wings), Mike Ricci (Flyers), Jaromir Jagr (Penguins), Scott Scissons (Islanders), Darryl Sydor (Kings) and Derian Hatcher (North Stars).

Scissons played two regular season and one play-off game without any points. The rest of listed played each at least 900 games in the NHL.
Scissons career was also cut short due to injury. He had shoulder and back problems in juniors and later had hip problems that were caught when he went for a physical in Dallas

Quote:
Injuries kept plaguing Scissons in the minor leagues. In just a couple of minor league seasons both shoulders and his back were shot. He was spending more time in hospitals than on the ice.

The Islanders let Scissons go in 1995 but he was not prepared to give up his NHL dream. He was ready to sign with the Dallas Stars organization when there medical team gave him the terrible news.

"The doctor told me the next time I get hit improperly you may not walk again," says Scissons. "I decided there was more to life at 22."
That being said, he wasn't exactly known for being a good skater either.

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01-22-2013, 09:13 AM
  #67
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I can't think of a bigger disappointment than Daigle. Stefan and Lawton had worse careers though. I suppose the discussion comes down how we define bust here.

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01-22-2013, 09:35 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Daigle was a better scorer, if only because he had tons of opportunity on awful teams.
As opposed to those contenders down in Atlanta where Stefan was stuck behind a bunch of talent.

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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
I can't think of a bigger disappointment than Daigle. Stefan and Lawton had worse careers though. I suppose the discussion comes down how we define bust here.
Daigle had a successful career by an objective definition. He's called a bust because people were expecting him to be the next Gretzky, mostly due to a combination of a) Lindros' draft hype and early success, and b) the numbers he put up in the Q (which is very offense-friendly).

Daigle's career PPG would have put him at 43 points and 136th overall last season. That's a top-six forward. If you use his "adjusted" points, based on the way they're done at hockey-reference.com, he comes out with 49 points. That's 129th.

Hard to argue that he was a bust with that information in hand. Disappointment, sure. Bust, no.

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01-22-2013, 12:30 PM
  #69
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The thing that put Daigle over Stefan as a bust was his pre-draft hype.

All potential 1st over-allers get some pumping up, but Daigle was being mentioned in the same breath as Gretzky and Lemieux (and Lindros) as THE next dominant NHL superstar. The ballyhoo was nowhere near as loud with Stefan.


Last edited by Ogie Goldthorpe: 01-22-2013 at 12:35 PM.
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01-22-2013, 01:16 PM
  #70
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In terms of just playing career, MS's post on Daniel Dore is pretty convincing.

But I'm going with Wickenheiser based on how his failure to excel (though he did become a good third liner with the Blues) really changed the course of the Canadiens and the league.

I think most of us know that Wickenheiser over Savard is one of the key moments in the downfall of the Canadiens. It gets mentioned every bit as often as Grundman over Bowman, Chelios for Savard (more on that later), the firing of Demers and Savard, Le Trade, Rejean Houle and all the other pivotal moments in the last 30+ years of Canadiens hockey.

Drafting an Prairie guy who stank over a Quebecois who had a Hall of Fame career arguably created the furor every time the Canadiens or Nordiques had a draft pick and didn't pick a Quebecois. Nationalism also had something to do with that, but is Doug Wickenheiser responsible for the selection of Daniel Dore, Jose Charbonneau and so on? Maybe he is! I don't know for certain if he created the pick-a-Quebecois pressure that always haunted the Habs and Nords, but there's absolutely no question the Wick pick drove it into the stratosphere.

Perhaps the resulting fallout helped install ultra-PR conscious Ron Corey as GM, who systematically ran off Canadiens captains in the 90s. Corey's a huge hand behind the scenes in trashing the Habs legacy, since he basically crossed paths with every player and coach who wasn't a saint like Jean Beliveau. You prove the Wick pick bought Corey to the presidency and you've got a murder case on your hands.

It definitely contributed to the worst trade the Habs ever made, dealing Chelios for Savard. Chelios was going anyway - he'd pissed off too many people in Montreal and the team (Corey) didn't stand up for him - but would they have made a better deal if not for the lure of bringing home Savoir-Faire? Probably.

Those are just a couple of knockon effects from the Wickenheiser pick that I can think of off the top of my head.

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01-22-2013, 02:55 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogie Goldthorpe View Post
The thing that put Daigle over Stefan as a bust was his pre-draft hype.

All potential 1st over-allers get some pumping up, but Daigle was being mentioned in the same breath as Gretzky and Lemieux (and Lindros) as THE next dominant NHL superstar. The ballyhoo was nowhere near as loud with Stefan.
Yes, but look at these facts:

Patrik Stefan:
455GP, 64-124-188, 0.14-0.27-0.41, 12-22-34 per-82
70-134-204 adjusted, 13-24-37 per-82

Alexandre Daigle:
616GP, 129-198-327, 0.21-0.32-0.53, 17-26-43 per-82
148-218-367 adjusted, 20-29-49 per-82 adjusted

Daigle was clearly the far better player. Daigle also didn't have a Kovalchuk, Heatley, or Hossa to play with. The closest he had was that the first line his last couple years in Ottawa was Yashin and Alfredsson, and he occasionally played PP shifts with them. Also playing some time with a young Gaborik and Brunette - whom he outscored in total (he led the team with 51 points) and PPG - in his second to last year in Minnesota.

Daigle is clearly the far better player. Stefan wasn't supposed to be "the next Gretzky" but he was supposed to be a superstar center. Daigle was enough better that Stefan is still a bigger bust.

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01-22-2013, 03:05 PM
  #72
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Old
01-22-2013, 03:06 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by HabsByTheBay View Post
In terms of just playing career, MS's post on Daniel Dore is pretty convincing.

But I'm going with Wickenheiser based on how his failure to excel (though he did become a good third liner with the Blues) really changed the course of the Canadiens and the league.

I think most of us know that Wickenheiser over Savard is one of the key moments in the downfall of the Canadiens. It gets mentioned every bit as often as Grundman over Bowman, Chelios for Savard (more on that later), the firing of Demers and Savard, Le Trade, Rejean Houle and all the other pivotal moments in the last 30+ years of Canadiens hockey.

Drafting an Prairie guy who stank over a Quebecois who had a Hall of Fame career arguably created the furor every time the Canadiens or Nordiques had a draft pick and didn't pick a Quebecois. Nationalism also had something to do with that, but is Doug Wickenheiser responsible for the selection of Daniel Dore, Jose Charbonneau and so on? Maybe he is! I don't know for certain if he created the pick-a-Quebecois pressure that always haunted the Habs and Nords, but there's absolutely no question the Wick pick drove it into the stratosphere.

Perhaps the resulting fallout helped install ultra-PR conscious Ron Corey as GM, who systematically ran off Canadiens captains in the 90s. Corey's a huge hand behind the scenes in trashing the Habs legacy, since he basically crossed paths with every player and coach who wasn't a saint like Jean Beliveau. You prove the Wick pick bought Corey to the presidency and you've got a murder case on your hands.

It definitely contributed to the worst trade the Habs ever made, dealing Chelios for Savard. Chelios was going anyway - he'd pissed off too many people in Montreal and the team (Corey) didn't stand up for him - but would they have made a better deal if not for the lure of bringing home Savoir-Faire? Probably.

Those are just a couple of knockon effects from the Wickenheiser pick that I can think of off the top of my head.
When you add the Quebecois pride in Montreal to the fact that a great number of the greatest Canadiens players ever have been from Quebec (Richard bros., Lafleur, Beliveau, Plante, Lemaire, etc.) and then look at Wickenheiser vs. Savard, the fact that fans wanted Savard and he ended up being so much better that if Wickenheiser had turned out "as expected" and the gap was still that large, it means Savard would have been better than Gretzky. The organization for a long while simply took the mindset that they couldn't afford to risk NOT taking the best Quebecois player if there was any kind of question about it. Sometimes they even acquired them in meaningless trades or as throw-ins. And that mindset hurt the team a great deal, even though they did end up with some solid players.

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01-22-2013, 03:22 PM
  #74
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Jason Bonsignore was quite the steaming bag of ****.
There was an article on here around 6 months ago about how much the Oilers ****ed him over.

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01-25-2013, 11:40 AM
  #75
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There was an article on here around 6 months ago about how much the Oilers ****ed him over.
Would this be it?

http://oilersnation.com/2011/9/1/an-...dmonton-oilers

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