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Wasting talent in CHL, evidence

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Old
01-07-2013, 07:19 PM
  #151
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That makes absolutely no sense. Nobody dominates like Ovechkin did by being predicable and non-creative.
If Ovechkin did rely solely on a few moves, the NHL would've figured him out in about a half a season.
The guy was creative and explosive....but he's lost those elements now.
Creativity is not required at any level below the NHL. Size, speed and strength is plenty to dominate juniors and inferior competition if you have enough of them.

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01-07-2013, 07:59 PM
  #152
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It sounded like Koko didn't want to come back, and if he did come back to the OHL it was speculated that he would be traded... The ownership group for the spits are a bunch of dix, they took some shots at Koko in the press when he left... The reason he came back is because Boston forced his hand. Rychel said "They had a lot of help from the Bruins".... Read between the lines on that one.
Update from a local paper: "He has a contract with Boston, they told him he had to come back"

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01-15-2013, 09:08 PM
  #153
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I wonder what you guys think of Kosov. He's an example of a player that hasn't gone to the CHL, yet from the stats it doesn't seem he's improved from last year. He wasn't given a more significant role on this year's Russian U20 team, and he also registered the same amount of points as last year. Still, he was one of my favourite players on the Russian U20 team both years he played, so I'm hoping his production will increase now that Malkin and Kulemin are gone.

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01-15-2013, 09:18 PM
  #154
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Valentin Zykov ranked # 8 on CSS NA rankings.

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01-15-2013, 09:30 PM
  #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryker View Post
I wonder what you guys think of Kosov. He's an example of a player that hasn't gone to the CHL, yet from the stats it doesn't seem he's improved from last year. He wasn't given a more significant role on this year's Russian U20 team, and he also registered the same amount of points as last year. Still, he was one of my favourite players on the Russian U20 team both years he played, so I'm hoping his production will increase now that Malkin and Kulemin are gone.
Kosov looked really good at the super series on the smaller ice. I think he will be more of a power forward than a skilled forward. Threw some massive hits, was beating defenseman to the outside by leaning in on them. Showed great strength. On the bigger ice his game was noticably different, didnt have the same affect.

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01-15-2013, 09:37 PM
  #156
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Kosov's finishing ability is a weakness, he'll never put up large totals.

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01-15-2013, 09:47 PM
  #157
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What do you guys think, is Grigorenko ready for the NHL this season? He has received positive reports for his camp performance so far:

Leino on Grigorenko :
Quote:
The Sabres’ first pick (12th overall) in last June’s NHL Entry Draft had three quality scoring chances in Monday’s scrimmage at First Niagara Center, and was dishing passes as quickly as his jerseys were flying out of the Sabres Store. (The team store sold out of the 50 in-stock Grigorenko jerseys by mid-day Monday, and took orders for 100 more by the end of the game.) Grigorenko even drew the loudest ovation from the 10,175 fans in attendance at the scrimmage when he was introduced during the shootout.

Ville Leino is manning the right wing on Grigorenko’s line, with newcomer Steve Ott on the port side. Even after just a few days on the ice together, Leino already likes what he sees out of the crafty 18-year-old.

“He’s pretty calm with the puck, sees the ice well. A lot of young guys are a little nervous and they make fast decisions,” explains Leino. “But he’s able to hang on the puck a little bit, make a good play and give time to the other players.

When asked who he’d compare Grigorenko to, it didn’t take long for Leino to come up with a name.

“He would be awful tough to compare with Pavel Datsyuk because he’s one of the best players, that I would say, ever played. But he’s definitely got some of that playmaking ability that guys like (Henrik) Zetterberg and Datsyuk have.”
Grigorenko article : http://www.buffalonews.com/apps/pbcs...130119591/1003

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01-15-2013, 10:26 PM
  #158
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Yakupov can't score against kids but dominating men.

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From Oilers camp thread: Yakupov- Best for last I suppose, Its hard not to temper expectations because the kid just puts a big smile on your face, He was sniping left and right today, goals off the rush ( top corners, post in) and a gorgeous one timer from the right side that had everyone in the crowd beaming, His shot is second to none its truly amazing to watch. He made smart passes today, much more confident and seemed like he was more engaged with the team, lots of talking and interaction. The kid is special and he really might surprise us this year. Also had a really good back check today and picked RNH's pocket. Overall much better day and he really did put a smile on your face that you couldn't get rid of.

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01-16-2013, 05:52 AM
  #159
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Originally Posted by wings5 View Post
Yakupov can't score against kids but dominating men.
what can I say, they sure know how to hype up a player in NA


Last edited by cska78: 01-16-2013 at 12:40 PM.
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01-16-2013, 05:54 AM
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryker View Post
I wonder what you guys think of Kosov. He's an example of a player that hasn't gone to the CHL, yet from the stats it doesn't seem he's improved from last year. He wasn't given a more significant role on this year's Russian U20 team, and he also registered the same amount of points as last year. Still, he was one of my favourite players on the Russian U20 team both years he played, so I'm hoping his production will increase now that Malkin and Kulemin are gone.
I had seen Kosov live in 2011 in Boston playing for Foxes, he looked talented, but really raw, especially his shot was weak and off, skated ok for his size. Don't put your trust in Magnitogorsk hockey schooles, foxes do well, but for the most part it's the age of the players (towards the ceiling of the MHL's limit) and many middle of the pack prospects with rare exceptions.

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01-16-2013, 10:11 AM
  #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryker View Post
I wonder what you guys think of Kosov. He's an example of a player that hasn't gone to the CHL, yet from the stats it doesn't seem he's improved from last year. He wasn't given a more significant role on this year's Russian U20 team, and he also registered the same amount of points as last year. Still, he was one of my favourite players on the Russian U20 team both years he played, so I'm hoping his production will increase now that Malkin and Kulemin are gone.
If you are talking about his play in Ufa, look to Varnakov as the reason his role was diminished. Varnakov stuck him on the 4th line, where he skated with a different set of linemates every day. He is a driving power forward, good strong skater and excellent puck handling skills, and a checking line role doesn't feature those skills. However, i would argue that he was Russia's best defensive forward.

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01-16-2013, 02:44 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by cska78 View Post
I had seen Kosov live in 2011 in Boston playing for Foxes, he looked talented, but really raw, especially his shot was weak and off, skated ok for his size. Don't put your trust in Magnitogorsk hockey schooles, foxes do well, but for the most part it's the age of the players (towards the ceiling of the MHL's limit) and many middle of the pack prospects with rare exceptions.
Ah, alright, thanks for the report.

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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
If you are talking about his play in Ufa, look to Varnakov as the reason his role was diminished. Varnakov stuck him on the 4th line, where he skated with a different set of linemates every day. He is a driving power forward, good strong skater and excellent puck handling skills, and a checking line role doesn't feature those skills. However, i would argue that he was Russia's best defensive forward.
Yeah, that's the only time I saw him play this year. And don't get me wrong, I think he looked really good, and thought he could've been very effective given better linemates. But I thought there might be a reason related to his play as to why he was put on the fourth line. And I also went to check out his stats from the KHL and saw they weren't improved over last year, so I just figured I'd ask here. In Ufa, he actually was very noticeable in all games despite not scoring much and playing on the fourth line, though.

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01-17-2013, 02:43 PM
  #163
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Ah, alright, thanks for the report.

Yeah, that's the only time I saw him play this year. And don't get me wrong, I think he looked really good, and thought he could've been very effective given better linemates. But I thought there might be a reason related to his play as to why he was put on the fourth line. And I also went to check out his stats from the KHL and saw they weren't improved over last year, so I just figured I'd ask here. In Ufa, he actually was very noticeable in all games despite not scoring much and playing on the fourth line, though.
I agree with other posters who felt that he was one of the strongest Russian forwards in the SSS. I also think that he was one of the top 6 forwards last year in Calgary. Obviously, somewhere between mid-November and Dec 26, Varnakov got down on Kosov. It may have been warranted, but I don't think Varnakov has a great deal of credibility from anyone. All of his strategies and tactics were an abysmal failure, IMO, and I don't think too many will dispute the notion that his coaching was a big reason why Russia disappointed in many respects. When you are juggling lines in the medal round because almost nothing has been established, the events are in control of you rather than the reverse.

In regard to his performance with Magnitka, except for Yakupov, there weren't really any 19-year olds who were racking up big statistics in the KHL. There were a few who were skating regular shifts, but none really dominated or were the key players on the team. In many ways, kids in the VHL had a better chance to get sufficient playing time to really show what they could do and improve their game.


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01-21-2013, 02:14 AM
  #164
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Czech coach Slavomir Lener saying "they (who left to CHL too early) are hybrids, not good enough neither in czech hockey style nor canadian one" to support agrument young kids (under 20) to stay in czech league instead of CHL. He said cca 700 young kids left to abroad, mainly CHL, in last few years.
http://www.ceskatelevize.cz/ivysilan...2-na-slovicko/

just think about it one more time. Especially young russian players. The same argument have cska78 and me - fans. If you dont believe us, believe one of best hockey coaches in the world. Lener.

"Voracek chose CHL route and make NHL. If he stayed at home, he would be the same player, the same quality if not better," Lener said.

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01-21-2013, 06:28 AM
  #165
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A stupid excuse to hide the obvious fact that recently Czech development system sucks.

What argument can he make?Just ask Dmitrij Jaškin what he thinks about it. Fact is that the only prospect who remained in Czech Republic and is bound to make the NHL is Hertl. All the others (and quite surprisingly to me Czechs have really good record of panning out, even the late round picks) were/are produced by the CHL. Guys like Voracek, Vincour, Horak, Mrazek and to some extent even Faksa, Frk and Jaškin are great encouraging success stories for Czechs to move to Canada.

For Russians - yeah, I do agree, you have to think twice before moving to NA but I don't know what argument can you make about Czechs.

Also, how on Earth could "cca 700 young kids left to abroad, mainly CHL, in last few years" when they have a 2 import limit? Some ridiculous statements there

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01-21-2013, 09:28 AM
  #166
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Originally Posted by SoundAndFury View Post
A stupid excuse to hide the obvious fact that recently Czech development system sucks.

What argument can he make?Just ask Dmitrij Jaškin what he thinks about it. Fact is that the only prospect who remained in Czech Republic and is bound to make the NHL is Hertl. All the others (and quite surprisingly to me Czechs have really good record of panning out, even the late round picks) were/are produced by the CHL. Guys like Voracek, Vincour, Horak, Mrazek and to some extent even Faksa, Frk and Jaškin are great encouraging success stories for Czechs to move to Canada.

For Russians - yeah, I do agree, you have to think twice before moving to NA but I don't know what argument can you make about Czechs.

Also, how on Earth could "cca 700 young kids left to abroad, mainly CHL, in last few years" when they have a 2 import limit? Some ridiculous statements there
not only CHL, not only 17y old guys but also elder...

Most imports in CHL is from Czech rep and Russia, countries which did not sign NHL-IIHF transfer agreement. Coincidence?

Look, there is anti-russian propaganda in western media. I know it, you know it as well. The same is pro-CHL/leaving as soon as possible/bad czech developing propaganda in minds of scouts/agents/media in our countries. Think about it for a sec. I dont say that everything is possible, but ...

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01-21-2013, 06:06 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
not only CHL, not only 17y old guys but also elder...

Most imports in CHL is from Czech rep and Russia, countries which did not sign NHL-IIHF transfer agreement. Coincidence?

Look, there is anti-russian propaganda in western media. I know it, you know it as well. The same is pro-CHL/leaving as soon as possible/bad czech developing propaganda in minds of scouts/agents/media in our countries. Think about it for a sec. I dont say that everything is possible, but ...
There are 35 Czechs currently playing in CHL. 700 is a ridiculous number which is taken totally out of the blue. Or at least the addition to the fact about them mainly moving to the CHL. There are just no facts whatsoever to back it up, are there?

I'm not saying leaving as soon as possible is great but once again, what are the facts to deny or oppose this "propaganda"? Hertl is first Czech development success story in like last 10 years or so.

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01-21-2013, 06:32 PM
  #168
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Normally Lener is usually right but in this instance he is just speculating and Im not taking his word that Voracek would have developed better if he stayed even if it is from the mouth of Lener. He doesn't have a crystal ball to see the future. Another thing is where is all the Czech developed players in the NHL recently if the Czech system is still in good shape? If it was just fine there would be at least a few from the hundreds of thousands in the Czech junior leagues that develop into quality NHL prospects.

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01-22-2013, 05:59 AM
  #169
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Originally Posted by SoundAndFury View Post
A stupid excuse to hide the obvious fact that recently Czech development system sucks.

What argument can he make?Just ask Dmitrij Jaškin what he thinks about it. Fact is that the only prospect who remained in Czech Republic and is bound to make the NHL is Hertl. All the others (and quite surprisingly to me Czechs have really good record of panning out, even the late round picks) were/are produced by the CHL. Guys like Voracek, Vincour, Horak, Mrazek and to some extent even Faksa, Frk and Jaškin are great encouraging success stories for Czechs to move to Canada.

For Russians - yeah, I do agree, you have to think twice before moving to NA but I don't know what argument can you make about Czechs.

Also, how on Earth could "cca 700 young kids left to abroad, mainly CHL, in last few years" when they have a 2 import limit? Some ridiculous statements there
It would have been a great system, if most of the kids had remained in Czech system instead of leaving for NA
The North Americans are drying out the source by "stealing" all of their best talents and leave the Czech development leagues in weaker shape.

And about what Slavomir Lehner said,we have a similar point of view here in Norway, although in a much smaller scale according to number of players of course.
Norwegian coaches want Norwegian players to stay in Norway or Sweden until they are finish their development, at 20-23 years old, and ready for NHL action. Or else there is a big chance they become hybrid players.
Espen Knutsen, a former Blue Jackets player, agreed 100 % with Lehner here.

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01-22-2013, 06:15 AM
  #170
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Norwegian coaches want Norwegian players to stay in Norway or Sweden until they are finish their development, at 20-23 years old, and ready for NHL action. Or else there is a big chance they become hybrid players.
And what's the problem with that? I've already said it and I will say it again - just look how many Czechs who moved to the CHL actually do pan out and become an NHL regulars. They achieved their goal and are success stories for their fellow countrymen. Or should the fact they are "hybrid players" bother them by itself?

And on the other hand, where are the guys with high talent level developed in the Czech Republic? It's not like every single player is moving to the CHL once he reaches 16.

Don't know why it has to be repeated so many times but once again, can you write a single actual argument to support the Czech development system or are there just these cries about bad Canadians out there? They would be better off thanking Canadians for turning some of their boys into a legit NT talent instead of bashing them while defending their impotent system which they could probably fix if they acknowledged there are some huge problems.

Norway is a completely different case, you have Sweden near by which was in similar state to Czechs (not that bad though) until they decided to do something about it and now have probably even better system than ones in NA or Russia. But that's because they made a huge strides to improve it and don't even have to cry about CHL "stealing" Rakell, Dansk or Landeskog now.


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01-22-2013, 08:06 AM
  #171
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It would have been a great system, if most of the kids had remained in Czech system instead of leaving for NA
That wasn't the problem, coaching or rather lack of money for good coaches was the problem in the Czech Rep. The professional coaches outpriced themselves and the fathers who took their places, weren't educated enough. This resulted in much inferior junior leagues so naturally the players went to more challenging leagues to get better coaching.

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01-22-2013, 02:22 PM
  #172
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That wasn't the problem, coaching or rather lack of money for good coaches was the problem in the Czech Rep. The professional coaches outpriced themselves and the fathers who took their places, weren't educated enough. This resulted in much inferior junior leagues so naturally the players went to more challenging leagues to get better coaching.
That's the problem every European league has and it's not an easy fix. The CHL is a self sustaining entity that actually works and pays for itself in ticket sales and tv contracts, admittedly by paying the actual players virtually nothing, although they do get a university scholarship so that's something. The cost of a franchise is somewhere in the 10 million dollar area at the moment for the OHL, so it's not like they are struggling to find willing owners. This type of system doesn't really work anywhere else in the world. Russia's new system could certainly work as a lot of the clubs are bankrolled by billionaire owners. Most of the rest of the world has to make due and struggle with whatever they can scrap together.

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01-22-2013, 10:09 PM
  #173
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That's the problem every European league has and it's not an easy fix. The CHL is a self sustaining entity that actually works and pays for itself in ticket sales and tv contracts, admittedly by paying the actual players virtually nothing, although they do get a university scholarship so that's something. The cost of a franchise is somewhere in the 10 million dollar area at the moment for the OHL, so it's not like they are struggling to find willing owners. This type of system doesn't really work anywhere else in the world. Russia's new system could certainly work as a lot of the clubs are bankrolled by billionaire owners. Most of the rest of the world has to make due and struggle with whatever they can scrap together.
Well it certainly isn't the problem in Sweden, their federation put in a lot effort and funding about 10 years ago to develop junior coaching when it comes to player development and they've been reaping the rewards lately. Money isn't that big of a problem in Finland but it's rather the federation's inefficiency to develop junior coaches.

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01-23-2013, 05:25 AM
  #174
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And what's the problem with that? I've already said it and I will say it again - just look how many Czechs who moved to the CHL actually do pan out and become an NHL regulars. They achieved their goal and are success stories for their fellow countrymen. Or should the fact they are "hybrid players" bother them by itself?

And on the other hand, where are the guys with high talent level developed in the Czech Republic? It's not like every single player is moving to the CHL once he reaches 16.

Don't know why it has to be repeated so many times but once again, can you write a single actual argument to support the Czech development system or are there just these cries about bad Canadians out there? They would be better off thanking Canadians for turning some of their boys into a legit NT talent instead of bashing them while defending their impotent system which they could probably fix if they acknowledged there are some huge problems.

Norway is a completely different case, you have Sweden near by which was in similar state to Czechs (not that bad though) until they decided to do something about it and now have probably even better system than ones in NA or Russia. But that's because they made a huge strides to improve it and don't even have to cry about CHL "stealing" Rakell, Dansk or Landeskog now.
Ok
By reading your reply and Jussis under here, I have to admit I'm a little misinformed.So you have my apologize. Sorry .
I have read a few articles, that said something like a wrote, but of course I could have misunderstood what I have read, or the IIHF could be a little biased,or could be a combination.
But at least the Swedes states there is a problem for SEL that many players leave to early. It will be better now with the new CBA, allowing NHL clubs to wait 4 years before signing a drafted player, instead of 2 years in former CBA.

With hybrid players, I mean players who don't fit in any size of rinks, due to the early interruption in their development.

Hope my English is in some way understandable.

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01-23-2013, 05:27 AM
  #175
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Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
That wasn't the problem, coaching or rather lack of money for good coaches was the problem in the Czech Rep. The professional coaches outpriced themselves and the fathers who took their places, weren't educated enough. This resulted in much inferior junior leagues so naturally the players went to more challenging leagues to get better coaching.
Thank you for good explanation.

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