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Jeremy Jacobs is angry about lockout

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Old
01-22-2013, 10:50 AM
  #101
BlackNgold 84
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Originally Posted by Gee Wally View Post
It's over.
Don't care.
I can't stand JJ.. but i'll agree with this. Could give a **** now. He's always been full of **** in my opinion. The damage is done, and hopefully the league can rebound from this. I assume they will.

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01-22-2013, 10:51 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by bp13 View Post
Kate your heart is in the right place but asking folks to tip on a beer that is already marked up 500% (possibly more) is a little much.

What OUGHT to happen is for the man with the most money (Jacobs) to have a night where Jacobs gives all proceeds from sales to the concession workers. In your plan, you're asking the people least able to help the workers (the average fan) to help them. I know you mean well, but come on. It's like asking someone to tip their proctologist after their exam.
Better off sneaking in nips and leaving $5 in their buckets.

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01-22-2013, 10:52 AM
  #103
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revenue sharing in other leagues is 60% NFL, 50% NBA and about 33% MLB.

nhl, now 6%

that gives me pause.

here's some info on the NBA - http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/J...A-revenue.aspx

btw, apropos of nothing, Seguin tweeted last night complaining that a bottled water at a movie theater cost $4.75. called it "ridiculous."


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Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
Fun fact, the NHLs new revenue sharing is very comparable to the NBA's new model. It will see them share similar funds (roughly 200 million) even though they bring in far less revenue.

More fun facts:

- the MLB shares roughly 5.3% of their league revenues (7.5billion revenue and an estimated 400 million in revenue sharing).
- the NBA shares roughly 4% of their league revenues between teams (5 billion revenue and an estimated 200 million in revenue sharing)
- the NHL shares roughly 6% of their league revenue (3.3 billion estimated revenue and an estimated 200 million in revenue sharing). Yes, a higher percentage then both the NBA and the MLB.

When people tend to follow this line of thinking, they are more often referring to the NFL revenue sharing model. Great model that suits the league, however that league is very unique among the professional sports in North America. They play a what... a 16 game season? They have national broadcast deals that themselves dwarf all of NHL revenues. The have a popularity that is completely unobtainable by the other majors sports leagues which equates to far far higher attendance, far far better merch sales, far far more lucrative TV deals, etc etc....

Here's a very good article on why the NFL revenue sharing model wouldn't work for the NBA and MLB, and it can easily be applied to Hockey as well:

Why NFL-Style Revenue Sharing Won't Work in the NBA



Give it a read, there are more then a few other interesting tidbits in there.

Even more interesting:
Revenue sharing among NFL clubs plummets



tldr: We are in agreement that the lockout was for the smaller market franchises, but in disagreement on where that money needed to come from. From what you've said it seems to me you may not be fully aware of the points above in regards to how other leagues share revenue. Maybe the above will give you pause.

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01-22-2013, 10:59 AM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbadjohn View Post
revenue sharing in other leagues is 60% NFL, 50% NBA and about 33% MLB.

nhl, now 6%

that gives me pause.

here's some info on the NBA - http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/J...A-revenue.aspx

btw, apropos of nothing, Seguin tweeted last night complaining that a bottled water at a movie theater cost $4.75. called it "ridiculous."
From the article you quoted:

Quote:
So, obviously, teams with high local revenue will contribute the most into the new system as the amount of shared revenue grows from $60 million last season to roughly $200 million when the plan is fully implemented.
This from a league who saw 5 billion in annual revenues. The NHL saw 3.3 billion in annual revenue and would share an estimated 200 million between teams.

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01-22-2013, 11:00 AM
  #105
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so, you're agreeing that Jacobs was lying when he said it was the same proposal?

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Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
The final deal had some key elements players completely balked at back in October such as variance and term limits on contracts (which players refused to discuss outright), and a 50/50 revenue split right off the hop, probably the two biggest take aways for the NHL. In the PA's offers at the time they didn't get to 50/50 until year 5 of the CBA and only then if revenues continued to increase 5% yearly.

That said, both those key issues looked different in the NHL's October proposal. 5% variance on contracts became 35% with a 50% limit on the highest year. 5 year contract limits on UFA's, 6 for your own RFA's eventually became 7 year contract limits on UFA's and 8 on RFA's. I believe in the October proposal make whole was only at 150 million, which the NHL of course finally had to increase to 300 million in December.

In the NHL's October offer the term of the proposed CBA was 6 years with a mutual option for a 7th. The NHL eventually got this to 10 years because of the additional make whole money. Revenue sharing was also essentially the same as it is now. Trading cap space was also included although specifics not released.

Just for reference

October NHL offer

Players 3 October Counter Proposals

Breakdown of PA's proposal 1 and 2... #3 wasn't even worth analyzing

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01-22-2013, 11:08 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by bigbadjohn View Post
so, you're agreeing that Jacobs was lying when he said it was the same proposal?
That was my takeaway too.

Also, I'd like to point out that the offer the NHL threw a hissy fit over in early December, the one that had Bettman shaking and Daly dying on hills? That was very similar to what they agreed upon a month later anyway, after, get this, negotiating some more and finding common ground.

Maybe this thing ends a couple days later in december if the NHL doesn't walk away at that point because Fehr did his job.

Look, again, Jacobs can defend his role in the whole thing. I don't care. It is what it is and he is who he is. But he lied when he said that. He lied about the deal being the same as the October proposal.

And why would he lie about that? Can anyone offer another theory than "It makes the players look responsible and not him?" Because I can't figure out why he'd lie about that otherwise.

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01-22-2013, 11:20 AM
  #107
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as a hater of JJ, i take offence. i think he is a great businessman. if i were investing with him, i'd be pleased with the monetary results.

but i'm a fan. the long term health of the NHL is revenue sharing. when he gets on board with that, i'll believe he's the selfless savior of the NHL that he claimed himself to be in that press conference.

i'm not twisting facts. JJ's press conference was all about trying to change perception and it was full of spin.

you know why we think JJ wanted the lockout? because the lockout was their plan. if the owners didn't want the lockout, they didn't have to lock them out. who is buried in grant's tomb? grant.

i'm not now suggesting, nor have i ever suggested, that Mr. Jacobs is not interested in the long term health of the NHL. i'm suggesting he doesn't want his cash to solve that problem. he sees it as a problem for those who skirt the rules he helped put in place after the last lockout (20 year contracts) and for those who can't make revenue (smaller markets).

his issue, and many of the issues that were involved in the CBA, are about fellow owners.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotto74 View Post
same old story here. Those that hate JJ say he made out great in the new CBA and wanted the lockout and ended up with a ton of cash in his pocket.

Those that think he is a good businessman and is good for the long term life of the NHL think he did it for the long term stability of one of his investments.

Funny how you know who will argue each side just by reading the thread title and twist the "facts" to fit their side.

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01-22-2013, 11:21 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by bigbadjohn View Post
so, you're agreeing that Jacobs was lying when he said it was the same proposal?
Most definitely, the framework was the same with the keypoints needing to be negotiated up or down however the deal was not the same. Simply click the NHL October offer link I provided there and I'm not sure how you could not draw a similar conclusion.

But then I'd have to ignore everything he actually said and simply just believe he said the two deals were the same.

What you think he said:
Quote:
it was the same proposal
What he actually said:

Quote:
On whether he regrets the owners’ initial proposal, which many found extremely aggressive.
Quote:
JEREMY JACOBS: I can’t comment on that. I really don’t know. I know that prior to the opening and trying to save an 82-game season, the same offer was pretty much substantially made that was agreed upon last week.
On why he believes that the owners’ October offer and the offer that was agreed upon are similar.
Quote:
JEREMY JACOBS: I think really, if you look at it, it gave a chance for — there was no expression of desire to make a deal, to move forward. A lot of this was peripheral issues that you’re talking about. I don’t disagree. That’s not 100 percent what you’re saying, but if somebody wanted to make a deal they could have made a deal.
On what he said here I can somewhat agree, although I still think he was being purposely aloof in his comments. I think the owners October proposal was very similar to what we have now and I don't think the players counters to that proposal were at all. I do believe the NHL gave an offer in October that would have been very easy to work off of, and had it been worked off of we no doubt could have gotten to the same end result much much sooner. But honestly that's a guess, god knows how that could have went

Looking at the players counter proposals at that time however they weren't willing to negotiate off that framework, and instead made 3 significantly different offers refusing to give on the key aspects.

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01-22-2013, 11:24 AM
  #109
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also from that article: audits are used to determine team revenue.


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Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
From the article you quoted:



This from a league who saw 5 billion in annual revenues. The NHL saw 3.3 billion in annual revenue and would share an estimated 200 million between teams.

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01-22-2013, 11:25 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by bigbadjohn View Post
also from that article: audits are used to determine team revenue.
What does that have to do with what we were discussing?

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01-22-2013, 11:27 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by bigbadjohn View Post
as a hater of JJ, i take offence. i think he is a great businessman. if i were investing with him, i'd be pleased with the monetary results.

but i'm a fan. the long term health of the NHL is revenue sharing. when he gets on board with that, i'll believe he's the selfless savior of the NHL that he claimed himself to be in that press conference.

i'm not twisting facts. JJ's press conference was all about trying to change perception and it was full of spin.

you know why we think JJ wanted the lockout? because the lockout was their plan. if the owners didn't want the lockout, they didn't have to lock them out. who is buried in grant's tomb? grant.

i'm not now suggesting, nor have i ever suggested, that Mr. Jacobs is not interested in the long term health of the NHL. i'm suggesting he doesn't want his cash to solve that problem. he sees it as a problem for those who skirt the rules he helped put in place after the last lockout (20 year contracts) and for those who can't make revenue (smaller markets).

his issue, and many of the issues that were involved in the CBA, are about fellow owners.
fair enough but my only issue is the bold. Why should he or any other owner want their cash to salove the long term health problem of the NHL? They are the investors/owners of the business. It should make them money not cost them money.

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01-22-2013, 11:34 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Scotto74 View Post
fair enough but my only issue is the bold. Why should he or any other owner want their cash to salove the long term health problem of the NHL? They are the investors/owners of the business. It should make them money not cost them money.
Wouldn't the health of the league improve the ability to make money? The owners voted to bring in the franchises that aren't doing well, so they could get the entry fee.

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01-22-2013, 11:44 AM
  #113
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Wouldn't the health of the league improve the ability to make money? The owners voted to bring in the franchises that aren't doing well, so they could get the entry fee.
yes the health of the league would improve the ability to make money but having the owners just put in their cash as a short term fix does nothing to improve the health of the league. Anyway I have gone though this all during the lockout. It's over so I am over it. Eveyone else can beat the dead horse.

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01-22-2013, 12:08 PM
  #114
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Please people stop with the Its getting old already. Time to move on

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01-22-2013, 02:15 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by bp13 View Post
Kate your heart is in the right place but asking folks to tip on a beer that is already marked up 500% (possibly more) is a little much.

What OUGHT to happen is for the man with the most money (Jacobs) to have a night where Jacobs gives all proceeds from sales to the concession workers. In your plan, you're asking the people least able to help the workers (the average fan) to help them. I know you mean well, but come on. It's like asking someone to tip their proctologist after their exam.
I was really disappointed to read this. Do you tip less in an expensive restaurant because the food/drink costs more than at a Fridays?

If you can afford to attend a game and you can afford to spend upwards of $10 on a beer, you can afford to drop the person pouring your drink a buck or two.

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01-22-2013, 02:25 PM
  #116
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Can someone confirm if the concession people work off tips or not?

I always thought, and had heard from others that they were unionized and made a base wage like someone at dunks or McDonalds and did not live off the tips like a waiter would. When you get a CC receipt there is not a space to put tip IIRC.

I don't ever tip them, like I don't someone at a food counter anywhere.

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01-22-2013, 02:29 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Morris Wanchuk View Post
Can someone confirm if the concession people work off tips or not?

I always thought, and had heard from others that they were unionized and made a base wage like someone at dunks or McDonalds and did not live off the tips like a waiter would. When you get a CC receipt there is not a space to put tip IIRC.

I don't ever tip them, like I don't someone at a food counter anywhere.
I believe they get a % of sales, plus tips.

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01-22-2013, 02:52 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Kate08 View Post
I was really disappointed to read this. Do you tip less in an expensive restaurant because the food/drink costs more than at a Fridays?

If you can afford to attend a game and you can afford to spend upwards of $10 on a beer, you can afford to drop the person pouring your drink a buck or two.
I can appreciate your thoughts Kate but I think you're in the minority.

I think most folks feel their "16 oz" watered-down Bud Light isn't a better version, nor a better price, of the same product compared to almost any other venue on the planet. Literally. Almost nowhere else on earth can you pay more money for a worse version of that product. And most people link tipping to services that either provide a quality version of a product, a product for a good price or a tough service with notable friendliness. You don't get any of those when you buy a beer at the Garden.

Personally I do tip $1 when I buy a beer at the game but only because I did that job myself. But I'd never encourage anyone else to because I realize when a customer is already getting screwed on the product, how could I ask them to pay even more?

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01-22-2013, 03:27 PM
  #119
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$7 beers for the billionaire's bottom line, no tip for the dude making minimum wage

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01-22-2013, 03:35 PM
  #120
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just a bad attempt at humor.

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What does that have to do with what we were discussing?

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01-22-2013, 03:38 PM
  #121
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no.

(i need to add to the message, since a simple NO is too short a reply)


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Please people stop with the Its getting old already. Time to move on

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01-22-2013, 03:46 PM
  #122
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i don't want a short term, one injection of cash type of fix. that's my problem with their "solution." i want true revenue sharing, long term, fix the problem, no more lockouts.

the link to the NBA story shows a league that was determined to address the same problems the NHL seems incapable or unwilling to fully address. this, necessarily, has to come from the owners. they need to step up and take care of this issue. this is the leadership that is needed and that Jacobs does not supply. this would be the selfless response to a league problem that he claimed his support of the lockout was.

would that this issue were a dead horse. but it's not. the long term problems remain. and the Bruins owner is the one who brought up the subject and tried to spin his role as some selfless act for the benefit of the league.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotto74 View Post
yes the health of the league would improve the ability to make money but having the owners just put in their cash as a short term fix does nothing to improve the health of the league. Anyway I have gone though this all during the lockout. It's over so I am over it. Eveyone else can beat the dead horse.

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01-22-2013, 04:01 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by banalpie View Post
$7 beers for the billionaire's bottom line, no tip for the dude making minimum wage
So I understand this correctly...it's not enough for owners and players to ask fans to come back to arenas to ensure they continue making millions, but fans are also supposed to help cover the losses of these millionaires' employees???

In what bizarro world does that seem remotely appropriate?

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01-22-2013, 04:08 PM
  #124
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You always tip a bartender for serving you a beer, right?

(If you don't leave this planet.)

What's the difference at the Garden? Even if you just toss the guy/gal the quarters it adds up.

I also tip any time I can and tend to over tip. I AM A MAN OF THE PEOPLE!

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01-22-2013, 04:16 PM
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EverettMike View Post
You always tip a bartender for serving you a beer, right?

(If you don't leave this planet.)

What's the difference at the Garden? Even if you just toss the guy/gal the quarters it adds up.

I also tip any time I can and tend to over tip. I AM A MAN OF THE PEOPLE!
Do you tip people at McDonalds?

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