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Old
01-22-2013, 03:33 PM
  #451
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
I am not pinning my hopes or dreams on anything.

We have a log jam at C. We are cap restrained going forward, DD is due for a raise and Nino is still a very good prospect.

I know a lot of us get ultra sensitive when discussing Desharnais, but to be honest moving him wouldn't be the end of the world.

Either way, the NYI wouldn't do it, so it's pointless to discuss it I suppose.
We're trading a guy who was top 20 in centre scoring last year for a prospect who put up 1 point in 60 games. I'm not saying Niederreiter's career is ruined forever, but there is "high risk/high reward" and then there's sheer lunacy borne out of nothing more than the fact that Desharnais is 5'9".

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01-22-2013, 03:34 PM
  #452
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Running a hockey team should be treated like a business not a night at the roulette table. If the Islanders want a prospect or a lower end player sure but Nino has proven to be a mess in the NHL and a player who asked for a trade, neither of these things are positive.
You gotta take risks, there are no certainties in life, deal with it.

A good analogy would be Kyle Turris and Nikita Filatov. Ottawa took a risk on both. They got a home run and a bust.

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01-22-2013, 03:35 PM
  #453
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
We're trading a guy who was top 20 in centre scoring last year for a prospect who put up 1 point in 60 games. I'm not saying Niederreiter's career is ruined forever, but there is "high risk/high reward" and then there's sheer lunacy borne out of nothing more than the fact that Desharnais is 5'9".
Sigh...I couldn't care less if he's 6"9 or 5"2

We are cap restrained next year. DD is due for a big raise. Nino is a great prospect and to acquire a great prospect you usually have to give up a good player, in this case my suggestion is DD.

People are way too sensitive when it comes to DD around these parts. He's good. No one is saying he isn't.

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01-22-2013, 03:35 PM
  #454
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The Vancouver Sun is reporting that General Manager Mike Gillis said that there is a potential deal for Roberto Luongo in place.
"We have a potential deal in place with one team that has to do something with another player that they have " and it's not who anybody thinks it is " and so we have to wait. (But) we've been offered packages that don't fit what our plan is, what we need," Gillis said. The two teams prominently mentioned have been Florida and Toronto so it seems that both are not in the equation at this time. Do not forget that Luongo has a no-trade contract and he could veto any potential trade. Stay tuned.
To Tampa for Lecavalier

Roberto back close to home and we know Stevie Y loves him, and Lecavalier would help the Canucks down the middle with the Kesler injury.

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01-22-2013, 03:37 PM
  #455
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
You gotta take risks, there are no certainties in life, deal with it.

A good analogy would be Kyle Turris and Nikita Filatov. Ottawa took a risk on both. They got a home run and a bust.
Remember when we took a gamble on Gomez?

Maybe we should go for NN but I don't think Desharnais is a good price unless more is coming our way.

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01-22-2013, 03:39 PM
  #456
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Remember when we took a gamble on Gomez?
I'm in favor of risk-taking, I'm not in favor of dumb risks.

A good analogy would be investments. If I had $10,000 lying on the table, I'd put it into some index fund. I wouldn't take it to the casino.

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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Maybe we should go for NN but I don't think Desharnais is a good price unless more is coming our way.
Desharnais is not a core piece.

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01-22-2013, 03:39 PM
  #457
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
Could be a steal like McDonagh who could have also very easily never played in the NHL.
Except that the Rangers were gambling nothing in that trade. Even if McDonagh busted, hey, they got rid of Gomez. Unless you equate Desharnais' value with Gomez's.

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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
You gotta take risks, there are no certainties in life, deal with it.

A good analogy would be Kyle Turris and Nikita Filatov. Ottawa took a risk on both. They got a home run and a bust.
It's actually a terrible analogy, because again, they gambled very little. Rundblad had a handful of NHL games to his name and was already made expendable by Karlsson, and trading a 3rd for Filatov was not a "risk" in any sense of the word.

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01-22-2013, 03:42 PM
  #458
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
It's actually a terrible analogy, because again, they gambled very little. Rundblad had a handful of NHL games to his name and was already made expendable by Karlsson, and trading a 3rd for Filatov was not a "risk" in any sense of the word.
Desharnais, when given the two best wingers on the team, a full 82 game season without injuries, a lot of ES time, a lot of PP time, selectively played against weaker opposition (his production drops by a whopping 30% on the road)... manages to get 60 points.

He's obviously a franchise center, a piece we can build aroun .

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01-22-2013, 03:45 PM
  #459
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
Sigh...I couldn't care less if he's 6"9 or 5"2

We are cap restrained next year. DD is due for a big raise. Nino is a great prospect and to acquire a great prospect you usually have to give up a good player, in this case my suggestion is DD.

People are way too sensitive when it comes to DD around these parts. He's good. No one is saying he isn't.
Perhaps this is where our opinions differ.

I just wonder how much lustre a prospect on our team would have after putting up 1 point in an NHL season. Kind of a grass is greener on the other side syndrome.

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01-22-2013, 03:49 PM
  #460
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Desharnais, when given the two best wingers on the team, a full 82 game season without injuries, a lot of ES time, a lot of PP time, selectively played against weaker opposition (his production drops by a whopping 30% on the road)... manages to get 60 points.
Pretty good for his first full NHL season, I agree. I'd point out that all of the "special situations" the Canadiens placed Desharnais in (playing with our best players, plenty of ES time, plenty of PP time, and playing against weaker competition at home) can be applied to every single team's number one centre, but you knew that already.

Quote:
He's obviously a franchise center, a piece we can build aroun .
Well at least you didn't even bother refuting my arguments and went straight to attacking Desharnais, which is at least a confession of your intentions.

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01-22-2013, 03:51 PM
  #461
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
Perhaps this is where our opinions differ.

I just wonder how much lustre a prospect on our team would have after putting up 1 point in an NHL season. Kind of a grass is greener on the other side syndrome.
I think you have to look at the context of his inaugural season .

1) He shouldn't have been in the NHL
2) He was on a really terrible team
3) He had very limited ice time
4) He had terrible line-mates.

Not saying he's a blue chipper, but the situation he was in last year was a no-win for Nino.

He's also 20 years old, so he is still developing. With the proper system he may prosper. Unfortunately I don't think Montreal is that proper system at the moment.

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01-22-2013, 03:51 PM
  #462
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I'm in favor of risk-taking, I'm not in favor of dumb risks.

A good analogy would be investments. If I had $10,000 lying on the table, I'd put it into some index fund. I wouldn't take it to the casino.


Desharnais is not a core piece.
For us he is, unless you have another 60point centre up your sleeve. If the guy was 3 inches taller he would be the "next great french hope" but as he is he isn't worth a near busted prospect. Hilarious.

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01-22-2013, 03:56 PM
  #463
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
Except that the Rangers were gambling nothing in that trade. Even if McDonagh busted, hey, they got rid of Gomez. Unless you equate Desharnais' value with Gomez's.
What if McDonagh busts and Gomez puts up consistent 70 pts/season?

You're equating their value, I'm pointing out an example how high end prospects can end up being steals despite there being the risk of busting.

Nino is only 17 months older than Glachenyuk. This is a lottery pick without a year wasted from tanking.

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01-22-2013, 03:56 PM
  #464
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
I think you have to look at the context of his inaugural season .

1) He shouldn't have been in the NHL
2) He was on a really terrible team
3) He had very limited ice time
4) He had terrible line-mates.

Not saying he's a blue chipper, but the situation he was in last year was a no-win for Nino.

He's also 20 years old, so he is still developing. With the proper system he may prosper. Unfortunately I don't think Montreal is that proper system at the moment.
I know the factors working against Nino in his first season, but I just find it to be a pretty outrageous double standard. If we had a prospect in that situation, people would say that a great prospect should be overcoming those obstacles, not succumbing to them. People already say worse about players on our team (Eller, Leblanc) who have shown as much more. Let alone Desharnais, who actually has proven he can produce at the NHL level.

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01-22-2013, 03:58 PM
  #465
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What if McDonagh busts and Gomez puts up consistent 70 pts/season?

You're equating their value, I'm pointing out high end prospects can end up being steals.
I wouldn't dispute that claim; it's self-evident. But so what? It's meaningless unless you weigh the risk involved.

Gomez for McDonagh was not nearly the same level of a risk for the Rangers as Desharnais for Nino would be for us. That's what I'm saying. If this proposal was Kaberle for Nino I'd be all over it, even though Kaberle could return to near-elite form and Nino could bust hard.

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01-22-2013, 04:05 PM
  #466
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
I'd point out that all of the "special situations" the Canadiens placed Desharnais in (playing with our best players, plenty of ES time, plenty of PP time, and playing against weaker competition at home) can be applied to every single team's number one centre, but you knew that already.
You know very well that your statement is false.

I'll be comprehensively refuting it in the next day.

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01-22-2013, 04:13 PM
  #467
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
I wouldn't dispute that claim; it's self-evident. But so what? It's meaningless unless you weigh the risk involved.

Gomez for McDonagh was not nearly the same level of a risk for the Rangers as Desharnais for Nino would be for us. That's what I'm saying. If this proposal was Kaberle for Nino I'd be all over it, even though Kaberle could return to near-elite form and Nino could bust hard.
You're ignoring the context of my response. I'm using a close to Habs example of a high end prospect ending up a steal in a trade despite there being a risk of him never being in the NHL.

Like I said, I'm not comparing the values of Gomez and Desharnais here, I'd imagine very few upper management personnel in the history of the NHL would have made that deal. Sadly we happened to have most of them at the time. As for Nino...Milbury isn't GM of the Isles. Most of the time you have to give to get. Personally I'd be willing to risk Desharnais for Nino as best case scenario significantly beats worst case scenario IMO. We have the small center depth covered.

Just because Habs management has been inept in terms of prospect management doesn't mean it's reasonable to even suggest others will replicate the Gomez/Mcdonagh ass ****ing Kaberle/Nino would be. We can dream though, it'd definitely be awesome if we can get a high end prospect without giving up anything of value.

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01-22-2013, 04:17 PM
  #468
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
I wouldn't dispute that claim; it's self-evident. But so what? It's meaningless unless you weigh the risk involved.

Gomez for McDonagh was not nearly the same level of a risk for the Rangers as Desharnais for Nino would be for us. That's what I'm saying. If this proposal was Kaberle for Nino I'd be all over it, even though Kaberle could return to near-elite form and Nino could bust hard.
I get what your thinking... and for sure DD gets underrated given his size.

but NN's play this year at the pro level (AHL or not) shows he's pretty much back on track, and the kid's upside is definitely elite.

I like DD, but I don't see him being able to reach that elite level of play... for all his positive attributes, the lack of skating as a strength for such a diminutive/slightly built guy makes it hard to see him ever being a dominant 1st line player facing the opposition best on a nightly basis.

if DD is the asking price, and considering we have Pleks, Eller, Gally (and Leblanc/Bournival/Dumont/Vail in the pipeline), I think you have to pull the trigger, even if it definitely would weaken us in the short-term (not that we're going very far this year anyways)

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01-22-2013, 05:24 PM
  #469
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I know the factors working against Nino in his first season, but I just find it to be a pretty outrageous double standard. If we had a prospect in that situation, people would say that a great prospect should be overcoming those obstacles, not succumbing to them. People already say worse about players on our team (Eller, Leblanc) who have shown as much more. Let alone Desharnais, who actually has proven he can produce at the NHL level.
Nino was rushed into the NHL and forced to play a role he wasn't comfortable in without being physically ready. The same thing that got Eller and Leblanc so many haters for essentially the same people is telling, it's players like this being wasted in poorly managed organizations that you take such risks on. Nino actually bounced back in the AHL afterwards more so than Leblanc did.

I find Nino is always either over or underrated though, he was drafted too high but the kid is definitely first round talent.

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01-22-2013, 05:44 PM
  #470
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
I know the factors working against Nino in his first season, but I just find it to be a pretty outrageous double standard. If we had a prospect in that situation, people would say that a great prospect should be overcoming those obstacles, not succumbing to them. People already say worse about players on our team (Eller, Leblanc) who have shown as much more. Let alone Desharnais, who actually has proven he can produce at the NHL level.
Have you seen Nino play in the AHL? Once he was put at the correct level with decent ice time he started to produce, and he's heading to the AHL all-star game IIRC.

Desharnais is simply the cost I associated with acquiring a good prospect, know what I mean?

I would join in with the rest and say Diaz + a 5th round for Nino! But I know that's not realistic.

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01-22-2013, 05:44 PM
  #471
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I get what your thinking... and for sure DD gets underrated given his size.

but NN's play this year at the pro level (AHL or not) shows he's pretty much back on track, and the kid's upside is definitely elite.

I like DD, but I don't see him being able to reach that elite level of play... for all his positive attributes, the lack of skating as a strength for such a diminutive/slightly built guy makes it hard to see him ever being a dominant 1st line player facing the opposition best on a nightly basis.

if DD is the asking price, and considering we have Pleks, Eller, Gally (and Leblanc/Bournival/Dumont/Vail in the pipeline), I think you have to pull the trigger, even if it definitely would weaken us in the short-term (not that we're going very far this year anyways)
The fact that he stunk so bad last year and was in way over his head makes you question his upside. Doesn't make him a bust, but maybe his hockey sense won't allow him to be true top 6 player at the NHL level. There are lots of big and fast guys that just can't play top 6...Kilger just off the top of my head.

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01-22-2013, 05:46 PM
  #472
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Gomez's new theme song, Do you know the way to San Jose........

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01-22-2013, 06:15 PM
  #473
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Luongo to Philly soon...

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01-22-2013, 06:18 PM
  #474
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Tooooooom Pyatt!

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01-22-2013, 06:18 PM
  #475
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Tooooooom Pyatt!
He's now tied with the entire Habs team in scoring..

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