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01-22-2013, 03:04 PM
  #751
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Ah yes. The good old "the Russian stigma is completely fabricated by the American and Canadian media" bit. You don't even have to look outside of Tarasenko's draft class to find an example of a guy who is perpetuating that allegedly fictitious stigma. How's Kuznetsov doing in the NHL this year?

The Blues took a gamble on Tarasenko and it paid off. Now imagine if they had traded up to take Kuznetsov instead? It's very easy to look back and say that teams made a mistake, but on draft day there were some very real concerns over whether or not Tarasenko ever planned on coming to the US.

Grigorenko played himself into a sliding draft position last year. His play took a nose-dive late in the season. Also, the Rangers were allegedly trying to trade with Dallas to get the opportunity to take him if he fell that far. Unfortunately Buffalo took him one spot before we could get him.

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01-22-2013, 03:06 PM
  #752
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Ah yes. The good old "the Russian stigma is completely fabricated by the American and Canadian media" bit. You don't even have to look outside of Tarasenko's draft class to find an example of a guy who is perpetuating that allegedly fictitious stigma. How's Kuznetsov doing in the NHL this year?

The Blues took a gamble on Tarasenko and it paid off. Now imagine if they had traded up to take Kuznetsov instead? It's very easy to look back and say that teams made a mistake, but on draft day there were some very real concerns over whether or not Tarasenko ever planned on coming to the US.
"you've got to be a lion"


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01-22-2013, 03:08 PM
  #753
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I don't remember any one saying Kovalchuk was heartless in the playoffs. Thornton got loads of criticism for his subpar playoff appearances. When he was a beast in the 2010-11 playoff, it was largely glossed over (including by you, it seems).
Really? I see people shred Kovy all the time and while I've also seen jumbo criticized for his playoffs I see more people defend him to his critics than there might even be criticizing him in the first place. Thornton wasn't the perfect example but the point does remain. Rick Nash is great but Kovy's career had been much better. A lot of HF would take Nash over Kovy largely based on nationality.

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01-22-2013, 03:08 PM
  #754
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
"you've got to be a lion"

Who's to say that taking McIlrath wasn't the lion's move? Seems like they certainly went out on a limb with that pick.

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01-22-2013, 03:09 PM
  #755
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
"you've got to be a lion"

I would like to point out that I was the first one to use that quote earlier in this thread and I used the quote in full.

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01-22-2013, 03:10 PM
  #756
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Who's to say that taking McIlrath wasn't the lion's move? Seems like they certainly went out on a limb with that pick.
Paper Lion

Btw, Kuznetsov will finally come over at the old age of 21

http://www.russianmachineneverbreaks...ochi-olympics/

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I would like to point out that I was the first one to use that quote earlier in this thread and I used the quote in full.
Noted

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01-22-2013, 03:11 PM
  #757
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Why does one player like Kuznetzov perpetuate and justify the stereotype but Tarasenko, Burmistrov, Grigorenko, Yakupov, etc do nothing to assuage doubt?

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01-22-2013, 03:12 PM
  #758
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Ah yes. The good old "the Russian stigma is completely fabricated by the American and Canadian media" bit. You don't even have to look outside of Tarasenko's draft class to find an example of a guy who is perpetuating that allegedly fictitious stigma. How's Kuznetsov doing in the NHL this year?

The Blues took a gamble on Tarasenko and it paid off. Now imagine if they had traded up to take Kuznetsov instead? It's very easy to look back and say that teams made a mistake, but on draft day there were some very real concerns over whether or not Tarasenko ever planned on coming to the US.

Grigorenko played himself into a sliding draft position last year. His play took a nose-dive late in the season. Also, the Rangers were allegedly trying to trade with Dallas to get the opportunity to take him if he fell that far. Unfortunately Buffalo took him one spot before we could get him.



Money is also a reason. Players like Kuznetsov and Tarasenko get a special "stipend" from the KHL. Well, Tarasenko is getting it now and Kuznetsov is set to be the recipient next season. It is my understanding that this special "stipend" to young players about equals to the entry level contract compensation in the NHL. Factor in the actual contract (believed to be over $2 million for Kuznetsov next year) and the 13% flat income tax rate, and money talks.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-pu...150931868.html


here's your reason. yes he resigned for 2 more years and may never come over but again, drafting is a gamble. high end nhl talent that doesnt may never come over vs. north american safe player who may never play a minute in the nhl.

you gotta roll the dice on occasion. you cant always draft safe grinders

maybe thats why god created swedes.... LOL

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01-22-2013, 03:16 PM
  #759
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it is pretty sad all around . Those that lament the McIlrath pick ( myself ) as well as the Almighty Gordie worshippers and apologists . I'm willing to let it go as I do like Mcilraths character , body/ wingspan and mean steak . Thing is I'm not so sure he can play well enough in what one detractor called the " new NHL " . He's definitely a throw back player and if he can actually play the kind of guy anyone would want on their team . Would be a great player to draft if other sure fire ready to play NHL players weren't available and that will be the debate forever . Who knows maybe he'll be ready this year at some point . All I've seen him do is punch people out and he's very good at that . In the highlights I've seen of his hockey he seems serviceable enough . We never exactly been a big point producer or even warranted a look in WJC so I'm really hoping all those intangibles eventually make him productive in the NHL . He def has charisma and plenty of strength , foot speed I'm not so sure .

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01-22-2013, 03:18 PM
  #760
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Paper Lion

Btw, Kuznetsov will finally come over at the old age of 21

http://www.russianmachineneverbreaks...ochi-olympics/
I certainly hope he does come over. He's a great player.

I understand why people are upset with the McIlrath pick, but I just think it's wasted breath to debate the merits of it before the kid has even sniffed NHL ice. Apples and oranges at this point.

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01-22-2013, 03:18 PM
  #761
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Who's to say that taking McIlrath wasn't the lion's move? Seems like they certainly went out on a limb with that pick.
Because what everyone is saying is true Tarasenko was the bigger risk because of people being worries he'd stay in the KHL.

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01-22-2013, 03:23 PM
  #762
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post

here's your reason. yes he resigned for 2 more years and may never come over but again, drafting is a gamble. high end nhl talent that doesnt may never come over vs. north american safe player who may never play a minute in the nhl.

you gotta roll the dice on occasion. you cant always draft safe grinders

maybe thats why god created swedes.... LOL
Exactly. What if we draft an NA player and he becomes the next Jessiman or Sangs? That's a risk too. There was no risk that McIlrath becomes a bust? Who has the higher ceiling?

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01-22-2013, 03:26 PM
  #763
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
Money is also a reason. Players like Kuznetsov and Tarasenko get a special "stipend" from the KHL. Well, Tarasenko is getting it now and Kuznetsov is set to be the recipient next season. It is my understanding that this special "stipend" to young players about equals to the entry level contract compensation in the NHL. Factor in the actual contract (believed to be over $2 million for Kuznetsov next year) and the 13% flat income tax rate, and money talks.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-pu...150931868.html


here's your reason. yes he resigned for 2 more years and may never come over but again, drafting is a gamble. high end nhl talent that doesnt may never come over vs. north american safe player who may never play a minute in the nhl.

you gotta roll the dice on occasion. you cant always draft safe grinders

maybe thats why god created swedes.... LOL
I understand the money thing. You know as well as I do that I'm not the anti-Russian type. Hell, I was baning the drum for Slepyshev for the 3rd round and beyond last year. However, I don't think it's unreasonable for these teams to expect some "good faith" on the part of the player after they just spent an important piece of their future to add him to the organization. It's the shadowy behavior that scares teams off. If Tarasenko had simply said that he had zero intentions of staying in Russia, then he's gone in the top-10.

The Rangers have rolled the dice. They took Kreider in 09 who was the highest prep-school kid taken in I don't even know how long. They took a sliding Cherepanov in 07. If McIlrath is as lousy as he's made out to be around here by some folks, then I'd say they took a gamble on him as well. The team is drafting an identity, unfortunately not too many Russians fit that mold. It's not a slight against them, it's just not their game for the most part.

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01-22-2013, 03:33 PM
  #764
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They also took Nieves last year in the 2nd round, straight from prep school where many teams didn't like the competition he was playing against.

They drafted Fasth out of a lower Swedish League.

Spelling out of the Danish league in Europe.

They reach quite a bit as well.

They took a flyer on Pashnin in hopes he would come over.

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01-22-2013, 03:37 PM
  #765
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
I understand the money thing. You know as well as I do that I'm not the anti-Russian type. Hell, I was baning the drum for Slepyshev for the 3rd round and beyond last year. However, I don't think it's unreasonable for these teams to expect some "good faith" on the part of the player after they just spent an important piece of their future to add him to the organization. It's the shadowy behavior that scares teams off. If Tarasenko had simply said that he had zero intentions of staying in Russia, then he's gone in the top-10.

The Rangers have rolled the dice. They took Kreider in 09 who was the highest prep-school kid taken in I don't even know how long. They took a sliding Cherepanov in 07. If McIlrath is as lousy as he's made out to be around here by some folks, then I'd say they took a gamble on him as well. The team is drafting an identity, unfortunately not too many Russians fit that mold. It's not a slight against them, it's just not their game for the most part.
I've seen this team's identity on offense and color me unimpressed. Dump and chase, grind, can't make a pass to save their lives. Maybe we should change identities.

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01-22-2013, 03:40 PM
  #766
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
They also took Nieves last year in the 2nd round, straight from prep school where many teams didn't like the competition he was playing against.

They drafted Fasth out of a lower Swedish League.

Spelling out of the Danish league in Europe.

They reach quite a bit as well.

They took a flyer on Pashnin in hopes he would come over.
Well then they were not cowardly and stupid, just stupid. Either way it's not a positive trait.

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01-22-2013, 03:40 PM
  #767
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Originally Posted by SnowblindNYR View Post
I've seen this team's identity on offense and color me unimpressed. Dump and chase, grind, can't make a pass to save their lives. Maybe we should change identities.
Only way to do that is a coaching change and that is a year and a half down the line at the earliest.

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01-22-2013, 03:57 PM
  #768
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If Marian Gaborik can put up 40 goals in a Torts system, then others should be able to as well.

Or maybe they're just not as good as Gabby. Who knows.

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01-22-2013, 04:04 PM
  #769
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I've seen this team's identity on offense and color me unimpressed. Dump and chase, grind, can't make a pass to save their lives. Maybe we should change identities.
That team identity got us within two wins of our first SCF appearance in almost two decades. You'll forgive me if I think that holds more water than how impressed you are with it.

Unless of course you've made that determination based on the two games we've played this season, and if that's the case, I think that's asinine.

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01-22-2013, 04:13 PM
  #770
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That team identity got us within two wins of our first SCF appearance in almost two decades. You'll forgive me if I think that holds more water than how impressed you are with it.

Unless of course you've made that determination based on the two games we've played this season, and if that's the case, I think that's asinine.
That's a little more than halfway there. Forgive me if I'm not going to be all Jets fan about it and throw a parade about losing in the conference championship. They're also boring as sin. I watch them because I love them but I wish they were an exciting team to watch.

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01-22-2013, 04:15 PM
  #771
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The team identity was hard work, blue collar, chip on shoulder, grinding underdog types for the past few years. We moved away from that with the Nash trade and I'm not exactly sure what our 'identity' is now.

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01-22-2013, 04:29 PM
  #772
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The team identity was hard work, blue collar, chip on shoulder, grinding underdog types for the past few years. We moved away from that with the Nash trade and I'm not exactly sure what our 'identity' is now.
So with the loss of Dubinsky the team's whole identity is gone?

Mmmkay.

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01-22-2013, 05:10 PM
  #773
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So with the loss of Dubinsky the team's whole identity is gone?

Mmmkay.
What, the other 3 don't fit the description?

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01-22-2013, 05:14 PM
  #774
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Well maybe they thought that the team at 15 wanted Schwartz but not Tarasenko and this was their way of getting both?
The story as I've heard it was that the trade with OTT was conditional on a player that OTT was targeting not being there at #16. It's widely believed that Schwartz was the guy that Ottawa wanted by their fans and media. I don't know if that's ever been officially confirmed by the team, and I don't know if the Blues picked Schwartz first based off a hunch to that effect, but that's what is widely believed anyway.

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01-22-2013, 06:14 PM
  #775
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The team identity was hard work, blue collar, chip on shoulder, grinding underdog types for the past few years. We moved away from that with the Nash trade and I'm not exactly sure what our 'identity' is now.
Now we've gone from "underdog" to contender. It was bound to change at least slightly.

This team can still grind and work hard. They will. They just seem to have been out of sync to start the season, and they started against two elite, largely unchanged teams.

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