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Paul Holmgren vs Ken Holland

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Old
01-21-2013, 10:56 PM
  #26
FlashyG
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LTIR and a loophole in the rules are the only reason the Flyers haven't had to cut some good talent loose to continue paying Pronger. I don't consider Holmgren anywhere near one of the best GM's in the league.

I think it would be great if Holland was more aggressive in the trade market, and a little quicker giving prospects a chance to earn a roster spot, but no GM has ever done a better job keeping a team competitive with later draft picks than he has.

The management of our players is on Babcock too, when he has them in the line-up its not like he's giving them minutes to shine...they play 8-10 minutes and normally without any supporting cast.

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01-22-2013, 04:10 PM
  #27
shultzyfeelinirie20
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id like to see more tootoo hes only been avg less the 10min a game i think but when hes out there he makes his presence me known i dunno why babs isnt playin him more he did afterall have more pts then any of our bottom 6ixers last season

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Old
01-22-2013, 04:25 PM
  #28
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Holmgren has trade-able assets. Red Wings had too much success and don't have disposable assets to waste on "bad decisions".

Holland could trade Smith, Nyquist and Tatar... but that would piss people off more. People here think Holland can trade Miller and Emmerton off for Jeff Carter and a top 4 dman.

Let me ask you this, in the last 10 years how many top 15 picks did Flyers get and how many did DRWs get? Seems like Flyers had better picks.

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01-22-2013, 04:27 PM
  #29
Zetterberg4Captain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HTT3 View Post
Holmgren has trade-able assets. Red Wings had too much success and don't have disposable assets to waste on "bad decisions".

Holland could trade Smith, Nyquist and Tatar... but that would piss people off more. People here think Holland can trade Miller and Emmerton off for Jeff Carter and a top 4 dman.

Let me ask you this, in the last 10 years how many top 15 picks did Flyers get and how many did DRWs get? Seems like Flyers had better picks.
the flyers had more top high end picks that said however, i dont think giroux, richards or carter were top 15 picks.

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Old
01-22-2013, 04:48 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
the flyers had more top high end picks that said however, i dont think giroux, richards or carter were top 15 picks.
Carter was picked #11. And Red Wings still drafted later than Giroux(22) and Richards(24).

Giroux = 22nd pick. Wings first pick was 41 because they traded the 29th pick to Coyotes who drafted Chris Summers

Richards = 24th pick. Wings first pick was 64th (Howard) because they traded their 27th pick to LA who drafted Jeff Tambellini

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01-22-2013, 05:27 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HTT3 View Post
Carter was picked #11. And Red Wings still drafted later than Giroux(22) and Richards(24).

Giroux = 22nd pick. Wings first pick was 41 because they traded the 29th pick to Coyotes who drafted Chris Summers

Richards = 24th pick. Wings first pick was 64th (Howard) because they traded their 27th pick to LA who drafted Jeff Tambellini
fair enough but other then carter they were not top 15 picks

we have in recent years had a few top 25 picks(some we traded away) and yet none even closely resemble the talent of richards or giroux.

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Old
01-22-2013, 05:47 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
fair enough but other then carter they were not top 15 picks

we have in recent years had a few top 25 picks(some we traded away) and yet none even closely resemble the talent of richards or giroux.
Which validates my original point... Flyers have assets that Red Wings do not possess... mostly because of (as proven) worse draft picks.

1. Flyers had more top 15 picks and drafted good players
2. Flyers have more assets
3. Holmgren has luxuries Holland simply doesn't have due to Red Wings overall success.

DRWs are victims of their own success and salary cap. Not much you can do other than draft the best you can, be patient and hope to pick up some FA pieces along the way.

There are a few choices Holland made in the past that, in hindsight 20/20 that were not great, but not devastating. Holmgrem made some bad decisions along the way but has more assets to cover up the mistakes. Holland has maintained a strong team while Holmgrem is still trying to achieve success.

All in all, I doubt anyone could have done a better job than Holland has done the past 5 years. My guess is if Holmgren was GM in Hockeytown, he would have traded away key players away prior to winning the 2008 cup... because he is that "aggressive".

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01-22-2013, 05:57 PM
  #33
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Well Holmgren has shuffled the roster around but ultimately that Flyers team is weaker than they were before moving Richards and Carter. Plenty of Flyers fans are pissed about that too. Watching two of their core players hoist the Cup immediately didn't sit well.

I don't consider the Flyers a threat this year either. Their defense and goaltending remain problematic.

Turnover is exciting but ultimately doesn't always lead to better results. And don't mistake this for forgiveness for Holland not taking a swing or two at an aggressive trade in recent years. There's a balance between Holmgren and Holland that probably works best in the long-term.

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01-22-2013, 08:46 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by mindfly View Post
I'd rather have a active GM like Burke or Holmgren, atleast free agent frenzy, the draft and trade deadline would be big highlights of the year.
Brian Burke over Ken Holland? Brian Burke, the Brian Burke of Toronto fame? That Brian Burke or another Brian Burke? Brian Burke? When Brian Burke achieves a cup besides the one his coffee is in then we can talk. Brian Burke?

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01-23-2013, 05:44 AM
  #35
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This is a silly topic, considering there about 25 GMs in this league that fall well within the confines of the compulsively aggressive Holmgren and the damagingly cautious Holland. Obviously, the answer is that one would enjoy a GM who falls somewhere in between.


What is maddening about Holland is that he has two huge advantages that most GMs don't: (a) loose pursestrings, and (b) job security. Regardless of whether he is largely responsible for the team's success of the past decade, he has built up so much credibility with Illitch that - now that he needs to get creative - he can take a risk or two and not have to worry about being sacked, whereas some, if not most, GMs cannot.

As for WHO would be an ideal GM for the Wings, that's hard to say. GMs obviously have their own sensibilities, but those are going to be restricted or enhanced depending on what team they are employed by. I highly doubt we'd see Paul Holmgren shipping fat contracts in and out of Philly if he were in Phoenix. And Don Maloney of Phoenix would probably be an entirely different GM if he were in Toronto where financial limitations are practically nonexistent.

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01-23-2013, 07:34 AM
  #36
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Doesn't look good for either style. Flyers still zero points.

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01-23-2013, 08:31 AM
  #37
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I disagree. Phoenix has a great system, Bryz is not a great goaltender. Mike Smith put up Vezina numbers last year.
System is one thing, but the fact is that Bryz is a good goalie. The defense in-front of him is **** right now. Philly does not play responsibly in their own end at all.

Mike Smith is a big goalie who had a wonderful year, but will he repeat? Bryz had consistent years of success, until Smith repeats...we will not put these two in the same sentence.

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01-23-2013, 06:05 PM
  #38
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System is one thing, but the fact is that Bryz is a good goalie. The defense in-front of him is **** right now. Philly does not play responsibly in their own end at all.

Mike Smith is a big goalie who had a wonderful year, but will he repeat? Bryz had consistent years of success, until Smith repeats...we will not put these two in the same sentence.
Bryz had consistent success behind the same system that Smith had last year and will have in the future. Just look and wonder after..

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01-23-2013, 10:03 PM
  #39
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I'd prefer Holland. Holmgren is just a slot below Slats in the insanity range.

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01-24-2013, 08:19 PM
  #40
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Holmgren signs Knuble! Holland bested again.

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01-24-2013, 09:45 PM
  #41
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Holmgren signs Knuble! Holland bested again.
It's like Suter all over again. Holland just sat on his hands and did nothing. He seriously low balled him with that PTO contract. You're telling me he couldn't have outbid the Flyers lowly 750K? But no, Ken Holland must hoard his precious cap space.

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01-24-2013, 10:19 PM
  #42
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lmao holmgren got knuble

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01-24-2013, 10:42 PM
  #43
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Fire Holland now!

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01-25-2013, 05:28 AM
  #44
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Philly got serious injury problem, once briere, hartnell etc gets back he'll get some games, then he'll be on waivers pretty fast.

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01-25-2013, 06:55 AM
  #45
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Quote:
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Philly got serious injury problem, once briere, hartnell etc gets back he'll get some games, then he'll be on waivers pretty fast.
Yeah, right. Holmgren now has Knuble (our new whipping boy) and Lilja (our old whipping boy), and, oh wait? Who was it that signed Darien Hatcher after the Wings bought him out?

Cherry on the top: Who won the Stanley Cup last? Who was it that the Wings swept back in 1997?

I rest my case.


Last edited by Melbourne Ice: 01-25-2013 at 07:04 AM. Reason: ack! 1997!
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01-25-2013, 06:58 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Melbourne Ice View Post
Yeah, right. Holmgren now has Knuble (our new whipping boy) and Lilja (our old whipping boy), and, oh wait? Who was it that signed Darien Hatcher after the Wings bought him out?

Cherry on the top: Who won the Stanley Cup last? Who was it that the Wings swept back in 1996?

I rest my case.
nobody

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Old
01-25-2013, 07:02 AM
  #47
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nobody
Ack! 1997!

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02-11-2013, 08:17 PM
  #48
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Just imagine if Holland signed Bryzgalov to that contract

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02-11-2013, 08:35 PM
  #49
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Just imagine if Holland signed Bryzgalov to that contract
He'd be hanging from the rafters at JLA.

Literally.

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02-11-2013, 08:49 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by MrTaterSalad View Post
When Brian Burke achieves a cup besides the one his coffee is in then we can talk.
Not a Burke fan, but he already has a Stanley Cup on his résumé.

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