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P.K. Subban Thread - 5.0 - The "Doughty Money Vs. Lowball Bridge" Edition

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Old
01-22-2013, 03:55 PM
  #76
cjbhab
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
At this point we might be able to get them both! Seriously though, you're right. No one knows so you have to be open and sometimes be creative. Creative GM's who can make things work seem to be the better ones out there. The ones who aren't tend to get fired after fielding below average teams.
We haven't seen creativity in MTL in years..

The most creative thing I've seen is trading a proven playoff performer mid game.. the jury is still out on that deal.

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01-22-2013, 03:55 PM
  #77
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So the fact that when questioned he said that Edm would have to offer something else and the deal could probably get done... means that he said Montreal should trade PK to Edmonton for the picks?
I don't know if you read what I linked, but it's pretty clear what he was saying. His point was that trading Subban to move up 2 spots and ''something else'' would be something he'd consider from a MTL perspective and would not dismiss entirely.

Usually ''something else'' is not a particularly valuable asset.

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Old
01-22-2013, 04:02 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by cjbhab View Post
Kulikov and Subban are most certainly comparable. Offensively they are very similar and the defense part is subjective. I will agree Del Zotto isn't very good defensively. Kulikov is FLA's best defensive guy IMO.. see for yourself tonight.

I think the hype machine is getting to some of your heads.
Weaver, Garrison, Jovanovski, and Campbell all played more on Florida's PK than Kulikov.

While only Josh Gorges played more than PK for montreal. Take into account that PK had 119pim.

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Old
01-22-2013, 04:06 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by cjbhab View Post
Kulikov and Subban are most certainly comparable. Offensively they are very similar and the defense part is subjective. I will agree Del Zotto isn't very good defensively. Kulikov is FLA's best defensive guy IMO.. see for yourself tonight.

I think the hype machine is getting to some of your heads.
Defense isn't that subjective.

The problem is that if you want to evaluate defense objectively you can't use the numbers on the back of a trading card.

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Old
01-22-2013, 04:10 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by malton View Post
Weaver, Garrison, Jovanovski, and Campbell all played more on Florida's PK than Kulikov.

While only Josh Gorges played more than PK for montreal. Take into account that PK had 119pim.
Florida has a deep defense.. weaver is a pure PK guy, garrison was a shut down guy but he's gone. Jovo is FLA's worst regular d-man, Campbell logs a lot of minutes but isn't better defensively than Kulikov.

Kulikov was hurt last year and that has something to do with it.. Guys that weren't hurt had high minutes when the panthers only had 4 decent d men going. Those guys you listed were pretty much healthy all year

I'm not buying the PK minutes argument.

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Old
01-22-2013, 04:25 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by cjbhab View Post
Florida has a deep defense.. weaver is a pure PK guy, garrison was a shut down guy but he's gone. Jovo is FLA's worst regular d-man, Campbell logs a lot of minutes but isn't better defensively than Kulikov.

Kulikov was hurt last year and that has something to do with it.. Guys that weren't hurt had high minutes when the panthers only had 4 decent d men going. Those guys you listed were pretty much healthy all year

I'm not buying the PK minutes argument.
Kulikov played 1:02 minutes/game on the PK (5th on the Panthers) & 17:58 ES (3rd on the panthers).
2:50 on the PP (2nd) and 21:51 overall...

Subban?
overall 24:18 (1st)
ES 18:11 (2nd, by 8s/game)
PK 2:36 (2nd, as pointed out, this was despite his 100+PIM)
PP 3:29 (3rd, behind Markov who played only 13 games, & kaberle who played only 43 with MTL)


you don't have to "buy" anything... numbers speak for themselves.

Subban was used more & relied on more by Montreal than Kulikov was for the Panthers.

you can interpret that in terms of value to the team however you like, doesn't change the fact of how each player was used by their respective teams in the last year of their ELC.

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Old
01-22-2013, 04:27 PM
  #82
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If Bergevin really offered Subban 2,75M for 2 years, he's the idiot and the only one to blame for not having PK on the ice right now. Everybody knows PK is worth way more than that.

Give him 4M AT LEAST if you want to give him a bridge contract.

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Old
01-22-2013, 04:43 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
Kulikov played 1:02 minutes/game on the PK (5th on the Panthers) & 17:58 ES (3rd on the panthers).
2:50 on the PP (2nd) and 21:51 overall...

Subban?
overall 24:18 (1st)
ES 18:11 (2nd, by 8s/game)
PK 2:36 (2nd, as pointed out, this was despite his 100+PIM)
PP 3:29 (3rd, behind Markov who played only 13 games, & kaberle who played only 43 with MTL)


you don't have to "buy" anything... numbers speak for themselves.

Subban was used more & relied on more by Montreal than Kulikov was for the Panthers.

you can interpret that in terms of value to the team however you like, doesn't change the fact of how each player was used by their respective teams in the last year of their ELC.

Florida has Campbell who played the league high in minutes, Montreal had no one else.

Garrison had a break out year too.

It is not a surprise that Subban led Montreal in minutes, nor is it a surprise that a 20 year old wasn't given as much responsibility on a veteran defense that was one of the best in the league.

The best way to judge defense is to simply watch them play.

What about Subban's giveaways.. or him being out of position?


Subban had double the giveaways as kulikov.
Same number of takeaways.
Same number of hits.

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Old
01-22-2013, 04:51 PM
  #84
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Dunno if this article has been posted yet but it's a very good read.

http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/20...gin=1358790322

It might change the opinion of a few people here...


Last edited by elsubz: 01-22-2013 at 04:56 PM.
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Old
01-22-2013, 04:53 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
Kulikov played 1:02 minutes/game on the PK (5th on the Panthers) & 17:58 ES (3rd on the panthers).
2:50 on the PP (2nd) and 21:51 overall...

Subban?
overall 24:18 (1st)
ES 18:11 (2nd, by 8s/game)
PK 2:36 (2nd, as pointed out, this was despite his 100+PIM)
PP 3:29 (3rd, behind Markov who played only 13 games, & kaberle who played only 43 with MTL)


you don't have to "buy" anything... numbers speak for themselves.

Subban was used more & relied on more by Montreal than Kulikov was for the Panthers.

you can interpret that in terms of value to the team however you like, doesn't change the fact of how each player was used by their respective teams in the last year of their ELC.
Not to mention a minus player on both goals and shots in a role where Campbell-Garrison was doing all the heavy lifting on defense.

Kulikov and Del Zotto are comparable players. They aren't comparable to Subban.

Subban's best comparables are OEL, Hedman, Carlson, Myers, Fowler and McDonagh. He and OEL are on the high end of that group.

Basically the solid young defensemen who aren't quite Doughty, Karlsson and Pietroangelo.

What Subban does more closely resembles what the Norris candidates are doing rather than the 2nd pairing offensive specialists.

The key issue here is evaluating defensemen based on points, which is terrible. Defensemen point scoring isn't under their direct control. On ES they are subject to whatever their forwards do unless they play like Green or Byfuglin. A good Off D. on ES creates the conditions under which scoring will be encouraged but can't do it directly themselves. On PP, their direct talents get a lot more rein, but are heavily subject to team system and ice-time constraints.

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Old
01-22-2013, 04:55 PM
  #86
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I'm troubled by the lack of news regarding Subban and the habs

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Old
01-22-2013, 04:56 PM
  #87
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Kane only punched that one cabby. His off ice issues are nowhere near those of PK's.
Haha, I really hope that was sarcasm otherwise holy crap ... no words for this..

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01-22-2013, 04:58 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by cjbhab View Post
Florida has Campbell who played the league high in minutes, Montreal had no one else.

Garrison had a break out year too.

It is not a surprise that Subban led Montreal in minutes, nor is it a surprise that a 20 year old wasn't given as much responsibility on a veteran defense that was one of the best in the league.

The best way to judge defense is to simply watch them play.

What about Subban's giveaways.. or him being out of position?


Subban had double the giveaways as kulikov.
Same number of takeaways.
Same number of hits.
so... a 20 year old playing on a struggling team in a franchise worst season, tried to do a bit too much?
Shocking.

Kulikov may very well develop into a similar, or even superior, player than Subban is/will be... but nothing we've seen thus far would indicate that. Subban wasn't just given a bigger role, he took a bigger role. let's not forget that he was an impact player in his first 2 NHL playoffs. In the 2nd year, he was quite reasonably the best player on the ice for both teams in the 7-game showdown with the eventual cup winners.

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Old
01-22-2013, 04:59 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
Haha, I really hope that was sarcasm otherwise holy crap ... no words for this..
It definitely was... easily perceivable as well.

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Old
01-22-2013, 05:05 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Not to mention a minus player on both goals and shots in a role where Campbell-Garrison was doing all the heavy lifting on defense.

Kulikov and Del Zotto are comparable players. They aren't comparable to Subban.

Subban's best comparables are OEL, Hedman, Carlson, Myers, Fowler and McDonagh. He and OEL are on the high end of that group.

Basically the solid young defensemen who aren't quite Doughty, Karlsson and Pietroangelo.

What Subban does more closely resembles what the Norris candidates are doing rather than the 2nd pairing offensive specialists.

The key issue here is evaluating defensemen based on points, which is terrible. Defensemen point scoring isn't under their direct control. On ES they are subject to whatever their forwards do unless they play like Green or Byfuglin. A good Off D. on ES creates the conditions under which scoring will be encouraged but can't do it directly themselves. On PP, their direct talents get a lot more rein, but are heavily subject to team system and ice-time constraints.
My feeling is the only defenders in that age group I'd trade Subban for are Doughty, Karlsson and Pietrangelo. OEL and Subban are just below them, ahead of even the other head of the class defenders who stand out from their defensive usage as well as two way play.

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01-22-2013, 05:10 PM
  #91
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It definitely was... easily perceivable as well.
You never know on the internet ... you never know...

I assumed it was at first, but there were a few signs that were contrary.. and led me to be confused.

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Old
01-22-2013, 05:16 PM
  #92
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Isn't it obvious that the one camera that they use to film 24CH (or whatever it's called) broke down, so they're searching for another one of equally low quality, but they don't make them anymore for actual television productions? Thus, they cannot film the riveting scenes of Molson...well...Bergevin in this case, sitting at a tiny table as if he works at a startup or something having a speakerphone conversation with Meehan?

They're ready to start the negotiating according to the script, but technical difficulties have come in the way. Also, Serge Savard has run out of anti-anglo comments for this segment. (Notice how he didn't pass the toch to an Anglo captain.)

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01-22-2013, 05:22 PM
  #93
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You people really annoy me, no offense.

Wouldn't know a very good hockey player if you fell over one.
Really, just show me where i said PK wasnt a good player....quit putting words in my mouth that annoys me....no offence

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01-22-2013, 05:29 PM
  #94
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I thought she was?

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01-22-2013, 05:31 PM
  #95
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Alright guys, we can only discuss rumours from credible sources.

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01-22-2013, 05:32 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
You people really annoy me, no offense.

Wouldn't know a very good hockey player if you fell over one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Westcoasthabsfan View Post
Really, just show me where i said PK wasnt a good player....quit putting words in my mouth that annoys me....no offence
you know what really annoys me?

No offense!

PK, for the love of Price (no seriously, triple low five lately?) find a freakin deal!!!

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01-22-2013, 05:35 PM
  #97
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I trust Bergevin more than Meehan at this point. As for the ice time argument... This as to be the more stupid arguments ever... If you think so, you probably were for the Rivet and Brisebois contract in 1990's and early 2000's... They both played a lot but were still overpaid by a fair much. The canadiens with them was not even as bad as the canadien were last year. I do think that Subban is a good defenseman but I would rather have Kulikov than him at this point in time ...

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01-22-2013, 05:35 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Lebowski View Post
If Bergevin really offered Subban 2,75M for 2 years, he's the idiot and the only one to blame for not having PK on the ice right now. Everybody knows PK is worth way more than that.

Give him 4M AT LEAST if you want to give him a bridge contract.

You mean a Jeff Bridges contract, right?


I agree completely with you BTW, that's exactly the deal I want (4-4.5 x 2)

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01-22-2013, 05:39 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
Haha, I really hope that was sarcasm otherwise holy crap ... no words for this..
obviously sarcasm

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Old
01-22-2013, 05:40 PM
  #100
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Weaver, Garrison, Jovanovski, and Campbell all played more on Florida's PK than Kulikov.

While only Josh Gorges played more than PK for montreal. Take into account that PK had 119pim.
That reminds me. Didn't PK have the most minor penalties in the NHL the last 2 seasons. Not saying he isn't valuable but he did cost the team some games with dumb penalties.

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