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Will Letang sign/be offered an 8 year contract?

View Poll Results: Will Letang sign/be offered an 8 year contract?
Yes 105 89.74%
No 12 10.26%
Voters: 117. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-22-2013, 06:36 PM
  #126
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
We could bring in Gonchar tomorrow and he'd be an upgrade over Letang on the PP. Nothing wrong with admitting Letang isn't a true #1. Just like Neal isn't a PPG guy without Geno, Letang's production is largely due to the team in front of him.

And just as this organization turned Letang and Goligoski into top pairing guys. I'm confident morrow and pouliot will be the same. Both being upgrades over Letang on the PP.

We're not arguing signing or not signing Letang. That's a given.
When the definition of a #1 defenseman excludes all but a couple players in the entire league, I'd say it's the definition that's failing to meet a reasonable standard, not the player in question.

As for the "Letang gets his points because of the team in front of him" argument, that's just not going to fly. Like I pointed out earlier, Letang has been a more productive PP player than Chara the past two seasons. Boston has scored virtually the same amount of goals as the Pens the past couple years, but nobody credits the Bruins for Big Z's production.

It's a double-standard that needs to be set straight. Just because Letang doesn't get his PP points via a laser shot or pinpoint playmaking doesn't mean that he isn't earning them. His rare combination of speed, stickhandling, strength, and tenacity open up opportunities for production that other, more conventional PP quarterbacks without his natural gifts can't.

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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Edler is no more a comparable than Doughty. Edler got 5M. Doughty got 7M. I think the thinking here is that Letang falls probably around the middle. Ergo, around 8 years, 48M is what we're hoping he'd want IF he wanted to do the 'fair deal for a little below market'.
Doughty was coming off a relatively poor year when he signed that deal, and it's fair to say that Letang has been the better player over the course of the past couple seasons outside of the latest playoff run. If he wants Doughty money I don't think anyone should bat an eye, though I wouldn't be shocked if he took a below market deal like you suggested.

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01-22-2013, 06:54 PM
  #127
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But that's what a number 1 defenseman is. This isn't like a situation in kindergarten where you get a gold star for showing up. There's a certain class of the league that are #1 defensemen. Just because you're your teams best defenseman doesn't mean you're a #1 defenseman. If that's the case, Dick Tarnstrom sure enjoyed his time in the sun in the early 2000's being a #1 defenseman in the NHL.

Letang can be a #1 defenseman, but I wouldn't call him one at this moment...he has some proving to do. He's a top pairing defenseman, sure, but he still needs a supporting cast around him, particularly someone to work the puck on the powerplay. He's not going to make a defensive partner better. He needs someone to complement him. That's why Shero has been on a search for someone to pair with Letang.

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01-22-2013, 07:03 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by JTG View Post
But that's what a number 1 defenseman is. This isn't like a situation in kindergarten where you get a gold star for showing up. There's a certain class of the league that are #1 defensemen. Just because you're your teams best defenseman doesn't mean you're a #1 defenseman. If that's the case, Dick Tarnstrom sure enjoyed his time in the sun in the early 2000's being a #1 defenseman in the NHL.
No, it isn't. And nobody's saying that because Letang is the best on the Pens that he's a #1 by default.

Letang is arguably the 2nd best defenseman in the league offensively and was the 5th most productive last year on the PP. He can play 2 minutes of PK time a game and plays physical, to the tune of 2 hits a game. That's why he's fared better than any active defenseman in Norris voting outside of Weber and Chara the last two years.

But then we come back to that Norris voting that no detractor seems to want to acknowledge.

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Letang can be a #1 defenseman, but I wouldn't call him one at this moment...he has some proving to do. He's a top pairing defenseman, sure, but he still needs a supporting cast around him, particularly someone to work the puck on the powerplay. He's not going to make a defensive partner better. He needs someone to complement him. That's why Shero has been on a search for someone to pair with Letang.
Please be joking, JTG. Please be joking.

Letang made every single defenseman he played with better last year. Suggesting anything else is pure revisionist history.

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01-22-2013, 07:10 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
No, it isn't. And nobody's saying that because Letang is the best on the Pens that he's a #1 by default.

Letang is arguably the 2nd best defenseman in the league offensively and was the 5th most productive last year on the PP. He can play 2 minutes of PK time a game and plays physical, to the tune of 2 hits a game. That's why he's fared better than any active defenseman in Norris voting outside of Weber and Chara the last two years.

But then we come back to that Norris voting that no detractor seems to want to acknowledge.



Please be joking, JTG. Please be joking.

Letang made every single defenseman he played with better last year. Suggesting anything else is pure revisionist history.
Did he? Everyone they paired with him looked no better than they did without him. They tried Orpik...looked like ****. They tried Martin...looked like ****. For a decent stretch last season, Letang didn't look too hot himself.

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01-22-2013, 07:15 PM
  #130
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Did he? Everyone they paired with him looked no better than they did without him. They tried Orpik...looked like ****. They tried Martin...looked like ****. For a decent stretch last season, Letang didn't look too hot himself.
What? I can't even argue with you on this, man. It's like we weren't watching the same games.

Orpik and Martin looked much better with Letang than they did with anybody else last year. Hell, moving Martin from Michalek to Letang is the only thing that temporarily turned him around in the home stretch before the playoffs. Tanger provided a steadying influence for whoever he played with.

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01-22-2013, 07:20 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
What? I can't even argue with you on this, man. It's like we weren't watching the same games.

Orpik and Martin looked much better with Letang than they did with anybody else last year. Hell, moving Martin from Michalek to Letang is the only thing that temporarily turned him around in the home stretch before the playoffs. Tanger provided a steadying influence for whoever he played with.
We obviously were watching different games because Martin sucked 2 weeks before the season ended, and then was pathetic in the playoffs.

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01-22-2013, 07:29 PM
  #132
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We obviously were watching different games because Martin sucked 2 weeks before the season ended, and then was pathetic in the playoffs.
Well, I don't remember exactly when Martin started regressing again. But Letang was absolutely the reason for his stretch of good games in the 2nd half of the season. It has been pointed out multiple times here how moving him from Michalek to Letang's pairing turned his game around.

Defensemen looked better when they were put on his pairing last year. You're honestly the first person I've heard suggest otherwise.

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01-22-2013, 07:31 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Well, I don't remember exactly when Martin started regressing again. But Letang was absolutely the reason for his stretch of good games in the 2nd half of the season. It has been pointed out multiple times here how moving him from Michalek to Letang's pairing turned his game around.

Defensemen looked better when they were put on his pairing last year. You're honestly the first person I've heard suggest otherwise.
They didn't look worse, but I don't specifically remember thinking, "Boy, I'm glad that guy is with Letang. He looks so much better."

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01-22-2013, 07:33 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by JTG View Post
They didn't look worse, but I don't specifically remember thinking, "Boy, I'm glad that guy is with Letang. He looks so much better."
We're just gonna have to disagree on this, bud. I like you too much to keep arguing about it.

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01-22-2013, 08:00 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by JTG View Post
Did he? Everyone they paired with him looked no better than they did without him. They tried Orpik...looked like ****. They tried Martin...looked like ****. For a decent stretch last season, Letang didn't look too hot himself.
FWIW I specifically remember Martin looking better when paired with Letang last year, but I don't remember who he was paired with in the playoffs (but everyone looked like crap in the POs)

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01-22-2013, 08:07 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
FWIW I specifically remember Martin looking better when paired with Letang last year, but I don't remember who he was paired with in the playoffs (but everyone looked like crap in the POs)
If I can remember correctly our top 4 was:

Letang-Martin
Orpik-Michalek

I'm like 80% sure that this was the lineup.

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01-22-2013, 08:07 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by JTG View Post
If Geno signs for 9 million or less with his cap hit, then he's an athlete that doesn't exist in sports today.
That athlete very much exists. Ever heard of Sidney Crosby?

Yes, his deal was frontloaded, but he left a ton of money on the table. He could have asked for a 10 year max contract and gotten it. Geno can do the same thing, but he won't for the same reasons Sid didn't.

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Letang is slated to become a UFA in 2014-15. He still has a year under his current deal.
Doesn't matter. Any contract takes him off the UFA market, and he'll be compensated for giving up his right to field offers from other teams.

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Neal could have got upwards of 6 or 7 million dollars if he hit free agency, but he would have been silly to let that happen as a slew of things can happen over the course of a year.
It was a hypothetical contingent on him being a UFA. Had he been he would have gotten a good amount more on his deal. That is why RFA / UFA status matter and why the deals for guys like Edler and Karlsson aren't fair comparables.

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Now if you were a player, you were playing for a perennial powerhouse team, you're getting the mins and situations you desire, the team comes at you with 1 year left on your year, they offer you a year longer than any other team can (which is gold), at a number lower than you will other wise get (say we offer Letang in the low 6's), would you take it? I would. I'm set for a majority of my career. Sure, you're leaving a bit of money on the table if you turn into a Norris winner, but at the same rate, you're hedging your bets if you don't. It's a low risk, and a no brainer, IMO. You're still being paid like a top 10 defenseman, you're getting your money, your competing for Cups, and you're comfortable for the next 8 years of your career.
Letang doesn't take on any personal risk by asking for more money, so I don't understand the hedging bets comment.

If Letang really wanted to he could have this team by the balls and demand $8m+. I don't see that happening, particularly with all of the other stars on the team leaving money on the table, but make no mistake, he could. In the end he'll likely settle for around $7m, which will be a fair contract given his status as an elite young defenseman on the verge of unrestricted free agency.

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The thing is, he has to hit UFA to get paid like a UFA. I highly doubt either side lets that happen, as Letang if he has a down year or gets seriously injured, would have a ton to lose.
Again, no he does not. If he wants to get paid top dollar, sure, but he'll get a ton more money from Pittsburgh as an impending UFA as opposed to an RFA for the simple fact that he can test the market.

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01-22-2013, 09:06 PM
  #138
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I think it's funny how some people think Letang will get less than $6.5. That's the figure Shero starts with. He most likely gets $7-7.5. Not a true PP QB, but he's the one you want bringing the puck up the ice, not Sid or Geno. His transition game is off the charts & his skating is among the top 2 % of the league. When he's been healthy, he's only shown signs of being consistent and improving his overall game. He's a pest to play against in the defensive zone and has a quality of playing like he's full of pee and vinegar.

When Shero drafted Pouliot, he described him as "a future PP QB." I'm not sure how you throw that kind of pressure on him, but that won't happen for several years. Although I like what the D prospects look like right now, none of them have the skillset Letang brings. Tanger is a top pairing D man in the league and our No. 1 D man.
Not a chance. Shero just points to Karlsson, and says he won the Norris, he got 6.5, and dials it back a few notches.

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01-22-2013, 09:11 PM
  #139
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Not a chance. Shero just points to Karlsson, and says he won the Norris, he got 6.5, and dials it back a few notches.
How many times does the RFA/UFA distinction have to be pointed out?

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01-22-2013, 09:15 PM
  #140
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I don't know what a #1 D is, but I don't think there are 10 Dmen I would take over Letang, I think that says something.

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01-22-2013, 09:16 PM
  #141
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If Letang wants to walk away and sign for the biggest deal on the market he can...Karlsson couldn't do that. That's worth at least $500k per year. Throw in the fact that the guy will have spent the bulk of this contract being grossly underpaid and...yeah, Letang will score a big contract. I don't think it will be ridiculous, but $7 million a year for 8 years should be expected to get it done.

As for what his place is in the league...Letang lacks the consistency to be a top 5 defender in this league, but he's very safely within the top 10. I don't think I need to go into depth about how much top 10 defenders make when they have UFA status. If we don't pay him, someone else will.

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01-22-2013, 09:42 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Big McLargehuge View Post
If Letang wants to walk away and sign for the biggest deal on the market he can...Karlsson couldn't do that. That's worth at least $500k per year. Throw in the fact that the guy will have spent the bulk of this contract being grossly underpaid and...yeah, Letang will score a big contract. I don't think it will be ridiculous, but $7 million a year for 8 years should be expected to get it done.

As for what his place is in the league...Letang lacks the consistency to be a top 5 defender in this league, but he's very safely within the top 10. I don't think I need to go into depth about how much top 10 defenders make when they have UFA status. If we don't pay him, someone else will.
Add in that he's not a PP QB and I fully endorse this post.

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01-23-2013, 05:49 AM
  #143
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That athlete very much exists. Ever heard of Sidney Crosby?

Yes, his deal was frontloaded, but he left a ton of money on the table. He could have asked for a 10 year max contract and gotten it. Geno can do the same thing, but he won't for the same reasons Sid didn't.



Doesn't matter. Any contract takes him off the UFA market, and he'll be compensated for giving up his right to field offers from other teams.



It was a hypothetical contingent on him being a UFA. Had he been he would have gotten a good amount more on his deal. That is why RFA / UFA status matter and why the deals for guys like Edler and Karlsson aren't fair comparables.



Letang doesn't take on any personal risk by asking for more money, so I don't understand the hedging bets comment.

If Letang really wanted to he could have this team by the balls and demand $8m+. I don't see that happening, particularly with all of the other stars on the team leaving money on the table, but make no mistake, he could. In the end he'll likely settle for around $7m, which will be a fair contract given his status as an elite young defenseman on the verge of unrestricted free agency.



Again, no he does not. If he wants to get paid top dollar, sure, but he'll get a ton more money from Pittsburgh as an impending UFA as opposed to an RFA for the simple fact that he can test the market.
Sid signed a front loaded deal, and it's not at all like the one Geno would have to sign to make the same amount of money. ****, people are talking about a "gentleman's agreement" between Shero and Malkin already because they fully realize, Geno taking a discount as steep as Sid would see his cap hit at over 10 million.. Over the next 8 years, Sid's making over 10 million dollars per. If you want to play the "Geno should get what Sid gets...then he should have a cap hit around 10 million per year.

Letang takes a personal risk by entering the final year of his contract with no deal. No player likes doing that as a slew of things can happen that are not at all advantageous to his situation going into UFA. He could get a serious injury or he could have a down year. He'd be much better off taking a deal for less than what he could get as a UFA (even though he'll still be paid like a top 10 defenseman...I really cannot emphasis that enough), and he will still get the benefit of playing with a perennial winner, stay in an organization he's comfortable with, play the role and minutes that he desires, and get long term security.

And by the way...Edler was a UFA at the end of this current deal. Karlsson winning a Norris and leading the entire NHL in defensive scoring more than compensates for being a RFA. He got paid like a UFA, the same way Sid and Geno got paid like UFA's. The same way Stamkos and Ovechkin got paid like UFA's. This isn't some new thing that's been happening. Multiple GM's have spoke about how the "2nd deal" no longer exists. These guys are signing their 3rd deals, which pay guys like unrestricted free agents. None of these teams are going to let their guys get to restricted free agency, and they are going to pay them what the going rate for an unrestricted free agent is. Not to mention, a ton of these deals are buying out a lot of UFA years. You have to pay for that as a GM.

Neal could have gotten more if he waited until the end of this year, but he signed the deal before he exploded offensively. That should speak volumes of what I'm talking about. Neal was having a good year, and probably could have waited until the end of the year to cash in much more, but he didn't. He took the deal that was in hand.


In conclusion really, will I be upset if Letang gets 7 million? No, not really. Do I think he's worth 7 million if looking at his skillset? Not at this moment in time. Can he become a 7 million dollar defenseman? For the sake of our team I hope, especially if he gets signed for 56 million.


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01-23-2013, 06:06 AM
  #144
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01-23-2013, 08:15 AM
  #145
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He will be offered one, wether or not he signs it is the major question.

Not to throw gas on the fire, but Letang is a #1 defenseman.

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01-23-2013, 08:47 AM
  #146
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There are people that watch hockey that don't think Kris Letang is a #1 defenseman? By definition, a #1 defenseman is one of the best roughly 30 D in the league. If you think there are 30 better D than Kris Letang, you need your head examined

Now you could make a more selective category of defenseman that posses the skillset to be on a team's #1 PP, #1 PK and play 25 min a night. But that's not a #1 defenseman. That's a perennial Norris candidate and future hall of famer.

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01-23-2013, 09:27 AM
  #147
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I'm curious as to everyone who says that Letang is not a #1 defenseman....

Please name me all the defenseman that, in your opinion, are currently better defenseman than Letang.

So yeah, who is better than Letang, overall?

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01-23-2013, 09:39 AM
  #148
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There aren't 30 #1 D-men in the league. If you don't understand that, then cool.

As for who can play PP, PK and eat up 30 minutes/game. Chara, Weber, Suter, Pietrangelo for sure. Karlsson is on another tier offensively. Can't fathom what he'd do here.

I'm not arguing Letang isn't worth 7 mil. But a #1 D-man who can carry a pairing, QB a PP and dominate in front of the net? Nope.

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01-23-2013, 09:55 AM
  #149
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
There aren't 30 #1 D-men in the league. If you don't understand that, then cool.

As for who can play PP, PK and eat up 30 minutes/game. Chara, Weber, Suter, Pietrangelo for sure. Karlsson is on another tier offensively. Can't fathom what he'd do here.

I'm not arguing Letang isn't worth 7 mil. But a #1 D-man who can carry a pairing, QB a PP and dominate in front of the net? Nope.
I think we need a more descriptive term than "#1 D-man." He is, in my mind, without a doubt a #1 D-man. He can play 30 minutes, he anchors the blue line, and is their best, most irreplaceable defender by a wide margin.

Now, is he Super-Dee-Duper-Jinkies-Guys Elite? Maybe not.


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01-23-2013, 10:04 AM
  #150
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Can we please stop looking at other RFA signings in trying to figure out contract values of impending UFA's?

They're NEVER representative of market value because those players never hit the open market. Karlsson and Doughty's contracts are both meaningless. Each could have probably gotten more if they would have demanded it, and each would have gotten more if they had hit the open market and taken the highest offer.

So the reasonable thing to do is figure out how much Letang is worth on the open market by comparing him to similarly skilled players who have actually hit the market, then hope like hell that #1) he'll sign here and #2) he'll sign here for less than that, then #3) bow down and thank him for #2 if he chooses to do so.

Why should we compare Letang who will be UFA eligible to an RFA who didn't have the ability to field other offers, in developing our expectations about salaries? You're not just choosing to compare apples to oranges. You're choosing to compare apples to guns. They're not even similar enough to have any sort of sane discussion involving the two.

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