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Most Dominant athlete: Wayne Gretzky vs Wilt Chamberlain

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01-22-2013, 04:32 PM
  #76
SidGenoMario
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Wilt Chamberlain had about 5 Mario Lemieuxs.

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01-22-2013, 06:39 PM
  #77
tazzy19
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Originally Posted by Slapshooter View Post
Gretzky was statistically dominant, but Mario Lemieux was pretty much as good or even better. Did Wilt Chamberlain had a similar "Lemieux" in NBA challenging him?
Really?

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01-22-2013, 08:03 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by HabsByTheBay View Post
Whoa.

That's an enormous understatement. Russell is the best defender in NBA history.
Wilt was a monster too. He's 4th all time in defensive win shares. It's debated who blocked more shots and Wilt had more rebounds, and also more rebounds in head to head games against Bill. Wilt dominated most opposing centers and stifled them extremely well.

Lots of great, hall of fame players had their shooting % drop by about 10% or more in games where Wilt was defending them come playoff time. Bill Russell's highest shooting % against Wilt in a series was 45.4% according to the internet, than shot over 70% in the next series.

He was good in the playoffs, his team sucked, but when a guy regularly had games where he outscored a future hall of famer(Red Kerr) 53-7, you can't blame losses on him easily.

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01-22-2013, 09:24 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by VerySuperFamous View Post
Wilt was a monster too. He's 4th all time in defensive win shares. It's debated who blocked more shots and Wilt had more rebounds, and also more rebounds in head to head games against Bill. Wilt dominated most opposing centers and stifled them extremely well.

Lots of great, hall of fame players had their shooting % drop by about 10% or more in games where Wilt was defending them come playoff time. Bill Russell's highest shooting % against Wilt in a series was 45.4% according to the internet, than shot over 70% in the next series.

He was good in the playoffs, his team sucked, but when a guy regularly had games where he outscored a future hall of famer(Red Kerr) 53-7, you can't blame losses on him easily.
There's very little data to back up the defensive win share calculation. It's based on 1. Team defensive success, 2. Wilt's minutes played, 3. Wilt's total rebounds.

I'll add that in Wilt's two highest scoring seasons, 1961-62 and 1962-63, his team allowed the most points per game in the league. Bill Russell was voted league MVP in both seasons.

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01-23-2013, 06:58 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by tazzy19 View Post
Really?
Lemieux is the only forward who can even be compared to Gretzky. Granted, their primes didn't overlap but Mario's dominance in the 90s certainly makes a case.

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01-23-2013, 06:59 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by kaneone View Post
Easily Chamberlain.
Wilt's shafting of at least 2 league MVPs and his crap teams and lack of wide media like today minimize his unmatched dominance in the game of basketball.

He is equal to Jordan on the highest peak of his game.



I don't care if Gretzky is considered GOAT by the casual fan. These are the same fans who come frothing at the mouth to the NHL after 3 lockouts.


Gretzky is behind Orr most certainly and in my books behind Lemieux as well. And that's skaters.

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01-23-2013, 07:20 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by WingsFan95 View Post
Wilt's shafting of at least 2 league MVPs and his crap teams and lack of wide media like today minimize his unmatched dominance in the game of basketball.

He is equal to Jordan on the highest peak of his game.



I don't care if Gretzky is considered GOAT by the casual fan. These are the same fans who come frothing at the mouth to the NHL after 3 lockouts.


Gretzky is behind Orr most certainly and in my books behind Lemieux as well. And that's skaters.
I don't think it is the casual fan who says Gretzky is the GOAT. Majority of list would be

1. Gretzky
2. Orr
(Those two chance places pretty often)
3. Howe
4. Lemieux

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01-23-2013, 08:40 AM
  #83
57special
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I think a team of Orr's or a team of Howe's would beat a team of Gretzky's. A team of Chamberlain's could beat a team of Jordan's, IMO, depending on which era of rules they used (no illegal defense, 3 pointers, or "Jordan" rules).

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01-23-2013, 11:54 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by WingsFan95 View Post
I don't care if Gretzky is considered GOAT by the casual fan. These are the same fans who come frothing at the mouth to the NHL after 3 lockouts.


Gretzky is behind Orr most certainly and in my books behind Lemieux as well. And that's skaters.
Bollocks. You presume to speak for a lot of people with those words. And you are wrong based on the evidence:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=669817

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=486479

http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lis...he_Hockey_News

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01-23-2013, 11:56 AM
  #85
McGuillicuddy
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Originally Posted by 57special View Post
I think a team of Orr's or a team of Howe's would beat a team of Gretzky's. A team of Chamberlain's could beat a team of Jordan's, IMO, depending on which era of rules they used (no illegal defense, 3 pointers, or "Jordan" rules).
That's pretty hilariously irrelevant.

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01-23-2013, 01:05 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WingsFan95 View Post
Wilt's shafting of at least 2 league MVPs and his crap teams and lack of wide media like today minimize his unmatched dominance in the game of basketball.

He is equal to Jordan on the highest peak of his game.



I don't care if Gretzky is considered GOAT by the casual fan. These are the same fans who come frothing at the mouth to the NHL after 3 lockouts.


Gretzky is behind Orr most certainly and in my books behind Lemieux as well. And that's skaters.
But you also ranked Gretzky at 8th all time among skaters so its not like you are without bias. Any argument for Orr above Gretzky usually includes defensive play. Which should automatically exclude Lemieux since he was far more one dimensional than Gretzky. There are arguments to put one or the other above Gretzky but no real argument for both. Same if you include Howe. If you rank Howe above due to longevity you cannot logically rank Lemieux and Orr above him. If you rank Orr above him for complete game you cannot logically rank Lemieux above him. Gretzky dominated far more at his peak than any other hockey player except Orr and Gretzky did it longer and in a deeper era.

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