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The point of this thread is to have Gagner as NYR's 3C. Never mind that Stepan>>Gagner, and the difference isn't a 2nd. Only deal I would take is Gagner and J Schultz for Stepan++.
Well you aren't getting J Schultz....nice try. If Stepan is so good then just keep him. Why would you need Gagner?
Simple reason is that we need Gagner to centre our 2nd line.
If not, then its either Horcoff, then Belanger. Unfortunately, those two are made for the 3rd and 4th lines.
So unless its an equal or greater 2nd center than Sam, we cannot trade him.
A media type asked coach Kruger about first line.
he asked which first line:
Our tough Comp 1st line. (Smyth-Horcoff-Hartikainen)
Our Defensive Draw 1st line (Smyth-Horc-Gagner); (Hall-Belanger-Eberle)
Our offensive zone 1st line (Hall-RNH-Eberle)
PP 1st line (Hall-Horc-RNH-Eberle-Schultz)
Pk 1st line (Smyth-Horcoff)
Shootout 1st line. (Gagner-Hemsky-Eberle)
Our media will not be so foolish/childish
with the TOR media type questions.
So Gagner who is 10 months older has used up all his potential? On top of that Gagner has never played with a talent like Gaborik. If he had im sure he has a higher point total. Gagner gets crapped on to much around here IMO.
Wait, so what happened to all of those threads stating that Ales Hemsky was an elite talent?
That never happened, I guess? Or is Ales Hemsky not an elite talent? Mr. Point Per Game Skillset is now not a talent anywhere near the level of Marian Gaborik?
That's funny, because I swore I thought I read a lot of Oilers fans saying things like that around the time that they signed him to his current deal.
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Originally Posted by raab
Gotta love how guys can use the 8 point game against him, something only a handful of players have ever done.
Good for him, doesn't change the fact that he's a 40 point player and nothing more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamin
Problem is its a bone headed argument. What is the point cut off, is it a 2 point game, 4 point game, a hat trick?
No, it just doesn't mean that he's proven himself to be more than a 40 point player.
Quote:
I mean if you take away Vanek's 5 point night he has zero points, what a bum that guy is cant keep up a 5 ppg average so it just doesnt count.
Ok, now you just sound ridiculous. We get the point. Still doesn't change the fact about the actual subject matter.
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Oh wait points dont work like that. Gagner earned 8 points and they show up in his totals
Yep and when he has multiple 50+ point seasons, we'll start looking at him in a different light.
Last edited by CM Lundqvist: 01-21-2013 at 11:22 PM.
[QUOTE=CM Lundqvist;58064893]Wait, so what happened to all of those threads stating that Ales Hemsky was an elite talent?
That never happened, I guess? Or is Ales Hemsky not an elite talent? Mr. Point Per Game Skillset is now not a talent anywhere near the level of Marian Gaborik?
That's funny, because I swore I thought I read a lot of Oilers fans saying things like that around the time that they signed him to his current deal.
Good for him, doesn't change the fact that he's a 40 point player and nothing more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamin
Problem is its a bone headed argument. What is the point cut off, is it a 2 point game, 4 point game, a hat trick?
No, it just doesn't mean that he's proven himself to be more than a 40 point player.
Ok, now you just sound ridiculous. We get the point. Still doesn't change the fact about the actual subject matter.
Yep and when he has multiple 50+ point seasons, we'll start looking at him in a different light.
And which player are you referring to who has multiple 50 point seasons? Can't be Stepan as he has 1 50 and 1 40. By your own definition until he can put up multiple 50 pt seasons we won't be looking at him as anything more than a 40 point player.
And which player are you referring to who has multiple 50 point seasons? Can't be Stepan as he has 1 50 and 1 40. By your own definition until he can put up multiple 50 pt seasons we won't be looking at him as anything more than a 40 point player.
Before I even start to argue with you, go back within there and quote where I said that "Derek Stepan is a 50 point player".
Because I don't recall saying that at all. Do I think he will be? I think he'll be a 60+ point player one day. Regardless, it still doesn't change the fact that SAM GAGNER (nice attempt to divert attention away from the topic at hand, by the way) is still a 40 point player DESPITE having an 8 point game.
No one is discrediting Gagner's performance that night. He had a hell of a game, I loved watching every minute of it. However, he's still a 40 point player at the end of the day. Fine by me for a second line player, but we have a guy that in his 2nd season in the NHL put up 50 points and in his rookie year, broke the 20 goal mark. In 2 years, he's accomplished more at the NHL level than Gagner has, 8 point game aside and there's still TONS of room to grow for Stepan.
Gagner has to start showing some sort of progress if he's going to be the player that some Oilers fans think he can be, and there simply is no arguing that.
Before I even start to argue with you, go back within there and quote where I said that "Derek Stepan is a 50 point player".
Because I don't recall saying that at all. Do I think he will be? I think he'll be a 60+ point player one day. Regardless, it still doesn't change the fact that SAM GAGNER (nice attempt to divert attention away from the topic at hand, by the way) is still a 40 point player DESPITE having an 8 point game.
No one is discrediting Gagner's performance that night. He had a hell of a game, I loved watching every minute of it. However, he's still a 40 point player at the end of the day. Fine by me for a second line player, but we have a guy that in his 2nd season in the NHL put up 50 points and in his rookie year, broke the 20 goal mark. In 2 years, he's accomplished more at the NHL level than Gagner has, 8 point game aside and there's still TONS of room to grow for Stepan.
Gagner has to start showing some sort of progress if he's going to be the player that some Oilers fans think he can be, and there simply is no arguing that.
Gagner's shown some progress, he's just bashed senselessly on the trading boards. Look at oilerbear's statisical analysis comparing p/60 relative to quality of competition/zone starts. Gagner is above average producer while Stepan is way below average. I think they are very comparable players. Also remember, Stepan got to play with Gaborik, which inflated his pt. totals.
Wait, so what happened to all of those threads stating that Ales Hemsky was an elite talent?
That never happened, I guess? Or is Ales Hemsky not an elite talent? Mr. Point Per Game Skillset is now not a talent anywhere near the level of Marian Gaborik?
That's funny, because I swore I thought I read a lot of Oilers fans saying things like that around the time that they signed him to his current deal.
Good for him, doesn't change the fact that he's a 40 point player and nothing more.
No, it just doesn't mean that he's proven himself to be more than a 40 point player.
Ok, now you just sound ridiculous. We get the point. Still doesn't change the fact about the actual subject matter.
Yep and when he has multiple 50+ point seasons, we'll start looking at him in a different light.
Gaborik is one of the most talented players in the league, I'm not going to say Hemsky has never been compared to him but you ask any GM which player they'd rather have and I bet the answer is always Gaborik. Also I highly doubt anyone was comparing him to Gaborik after signing his current deal. The media and a lot of posters on here thought that the deal was horrible.
The fact is that Stepan and Gagner are close in age and both could plateau or continue to progress. To write Gagner off because he was able to make the NHL before Stepan is absolutely ludicrous IMO. Within the next 2 years we'll see what both these guys are made of and you may be right and Gagner may never progress and Stepan could jump up to 60 points, but to state that as a fact when both players are under the age of 25 is pure and utter ********.
Gaborik is one of the most talented players in the league, I'm not going to say Hemsky has never been compared to him but you ask any GM which player they'd rather have and I bet the answer is always Gaborik. Also I highly doubt anyone was comparing him to Gaborik after signing his current deal. The media and a lot of posters on here thought that the deal was horrible.
I remember hear the exact opposite, but whatever. I think my point has been made that you can't have it one way or the other.
Quote:
The fact is that Stepan and Gagner are close in age and both could plateau or continue to progress. To write Gagner off because he was able to make the NHL before Stepan is absolutely ludicrous IMO. Within the next 2 years we'll see what both these guys are made of and you may be right and Gagner may never progress and Stepan could jump up to 60 points, but to state that as a fact when both players are under the age of 25 is pure and utter ********.
There is no "********" about Gagner perennially putting up 40 points for FIVE STRAIGHT SEASONS.
There's also no "********" in me stating that Gagner needs to start showing signs of progress if he's going to become what you think he can become.
[QUOTE=CM Lundqvist;58064893]Wait, so what happened to all of those threads stating that Ales Hemsky was an elite talent?
That never happened, I guess? Or is Ales Hemsky not an elite talent? Mr. Point Per Game Skillset is now not a talent anywhere near the level of Marian Gaborik?
I would not say he is Gaborik but not too far behind. If you actually read any of those threads you would realise they were talking about a healthy Hemsky. Which he was not for the last 2 years. So Gagner did not play with a healthy Hemsky for at least 2 years. Hemmer was a shadow of his former self the last couple years.
Frankly this year will tell a lot about the future of Gagner and Hemmer. Both are now in a position to succeed. Like they did our first game against Van
As much as I agree with the Rangers fans that the oilers offense is much better than the rangers, I have to say that this thread is the exact reason many people stay away from this forum. As ridiculous as the trade offer is, there is no need for this stupidity.
They are both good young players.
Did the op even ask himself who would play #2 C on the Oilers if he was dealt? Also Gagner as a 3rd line Center is ridiculous. He is not an ideal top 6 forward right now, but please, he is not a checking forward suited for a spot on the 3rd line.
Stepan is a good player is is almost the same age as Gagner with a lot less experience in the NHL. If he had been playing with the Oilers for the last 5 seasons I don't know
If he gets 40 points 5 times.
Also, the posters that want to disregard GAgs 8 pt night are crazy. He got 8 points in one night! You don't do that if you don't have talent. He finally had decent wingers and he lit it up. It wasn't just that game. He was on fire for several games.
Gaborik is slightly better than Eberle (younger Gaborik was much better than current Eberle) but Dubinsky isn't even close to Taylor Hall. The only advantage Dubinsky has is being able to stay healthy.
Stepan also spent some substantial time with Brandon Prust. The enforcer.
Gagner would be an upgrade at 3C and could contribute on the PP. Skjei maybe? LH TWD, great skater and good hockey sense, can play in all situations. Only 1 or 2 years away from the NHL. Looked great in the Gophers-ND games.
Rangers would need to add, maybe 2014 1st, Skjei? We don't have a first for 2 years but the prospect cupboards look decent right now.
How's the value?
Assuming Gagner is the target worth pursuing at cost of some overpay --- which is reasonable for the right upgrade, I'm just not seeing that's Gagner --- I vote no on the principal asset of Skjei.
Skjei is not at this point another Kreider for sure, and his upside is not such that there needs be THAT much aversion to dealing him.
But he has upside, excels at something you can't teach, speed on skates, and I don't see a return of Gagner worth dealing Skjei long term.
I would not say he is Gaborik but not too far behind. If you actually read any of those threads you would realise they were talking about a healthy Hemsky. Which he was not for the last 2 years. So Gagner did not play with a healthy Hemsky for at least 2 years. Hemmer was a shadow of his former self the last couple years.
Frankly this year will tell a lot about the future of Gagner and Hemmer. Both are now in a position to succeed. Like they did our first game against Van
Ok, so Stepan played with Gaborik for one healthy season then, since we're going to use this excuse. Gaborik was hurt in 10-11, and played like a coward due to it.
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Originally Posted by bernmeister
But he has upside, excels at something you can't teach, speed on skates, and I don't see a return of Gagner worth dealing Skjei long term.
I agree with this. I think Skjei will be an important piece in the future. A core guy? No, but he'll be an important player in the grand scheme of things in the future.
That is an entirely fair argument as regards his game-to-game production consistency. It has little to do, however, with his consistency in other facets of the game, or his overall ability, or what he'll deliver to a team year after year. Therefore it's not particularly relevant.
Take away the 8 point game....blah blah....guess what HF?....it happened!
The opinion of Edmonton fans is supplementary to the point I made. Hemsky is useless because he can't stay healthy. He's an incredibly skilled player that was shoppable to other teams in order for Edmonton to get more pieces for their rebuild. Gagner, on the other hand, is a 23 year old player who just hasn't lived up to the hype that surrounded him. You would think that if he was all that valuable, he'd be a building block, not a piece of trade bait.
Your evaluation on both players, especially Hemsky, is wrong. Hemsky was shopped yes, but for a very high price. No teams wanted him at that price, that doesn't mean that no teams wanted him at all.
Gaborik is slightly better than Eberle (younger Gaborik was much better than current Eberle) but Dubinsky isn't even close to Taylor Hall. The only advantage Dubinsky has is being able to stay healthy.
Stepan also spent some substantial time with Brandon Prust. The enforcer.
Its too bad that Gagner spent most of his time with Hemsky and Smyth, not Hall and Eberle.
Your evaluation on both players, especially Hemsky, is wrong. Hemsky was shopped yes, but for a very high price. No teams wanted him at that price, that doesn't mean that no teams wanted him at all.
Gagner has not progressed in 5 seasons. It's safe to say he's a career 40 point center. If that is satisfactory for your teams 2nd line center, then so be it. But don't bash opposing teams fans when they tell you they don't have much interest in trading for him.
Take away the 8 point game....blah blah....guess what HF?....it happened!
I'm a tad confused as to why this is a reply to me.
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I'm a tad confused as to why this is a reply to me.
Because you're making a good point as to why we shouldn't look at Gagner as anything more than a 40 point 2nd line center at this stage in his career, despite the handful of excuses that Oilers fans use to say that he's got this untapped potential to hike up his value.
