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01-22-2013, 09:50 PM
  #1
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New-School Red Wings.

The age-old formula for the Red Wings may finally be at a point where it is no longer working. Every year people can justify the fact that there are good young players left off of the team, because the team is successful overall, and the veteran plugs they bring in every year, or re-sign, do a good enough job where people will defend them.

This year if the team continues this trend, we may be forced to change that philosophy, and finally start to prepare our organization for the transition of the future. The problem is, we would not be in such a bad spot if we had done this sooner.

I am a huge Brendan Smith supporter, and he has not played as well as I had hoped so far this year to be honest. But I don't think anyone here can tell me with a straight face if he played 82 games on a defense with Nick Lidstrom last year, that he wouldn't be a significantly better play than we see today. Same with Nyquist. Part of Datsyuk and Zetterberg's development into great players came from the fact that they were tossed into the NHL early, as young undersized skilled guys, and got to learn from a team full of great forwards and great leaders.

I really hope if our team continues in this trend that we start to phase out the Samuelsson's and Cleary's, and start to phase in the Tatar's and Nyquist's. We are seeing how hard of a transition it is when you lose someone like Lidstrom to make up the ground on defense. We don't want to make the same mistake for after Datsyuk and Zetterberg are gone, as well. You are supposed to learn from your mistakes.

This is kind of just a random rant, if anyone wants to share their opinions, or piggy-back off of anything I said, I'd like to hear any feedback.

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01-22-2013, 09:54 PM
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We don't have enough puck possession players to be a good puck possession team, but we're too small/slow/soft to be effective playing another style. What are you gonna do?

The time to retool was long before 2013.

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01-22-2013, 09:59 PM
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I agree but Holland doesn't. It is probably going to be a long, drawn out TML/CGY type of situation. Keep signing tweeners to keep us competitive on a game to game basis with very little emphasis on coddling prospects and filling them with confidence. Just kind of "if you can't produce in a few shifts the way we like, you're on the 3rd/4th line or in the AHL". I think a lot of the problem stems from Babcock and Holland disagreeing on what needs to be done. I'm picturing a Moneyball passive-aggressive relationship situation with Brad Pitt and PSH.

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01-22-2013, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Eternal Sunshine View Post
I agree but Holland doesn't. It is probably going to be a long, drawn out TML/CGY type of situation. Keep signing tweeners to keep us competitive on a game to game basis with very little emphasis on coddling prospects and filling them with confidence. Just kind of "if you can't produce in a few shifts the way we like, you're on the 3rd/4th line or in the AHL". I think a lot of the problem stems from Babcock and Holland disagreeing on what needs to be done. I'm picturing a Moneyball passive-aggressive relationship situation with Brad Pitt and PSH.
Shoot me now............please.

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01-22-2013, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Shoot me now............please.
I can't blame Babs for not wanting to play a guy like Nyquist over a guy like Cleary, Nyquist has very little on his resume to prove why he should be out over a vet guy, but you have to look at the big picture here. It is very depressing

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01-22-2013, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Eternal Sunshine View Post
I can't blame Babs for not wanting to play a guy like Nyquist over a guy like Cleary, Nyquist has very little on his resume to prove why he should be out over a vet guy, but you have to look at the big picture here. It is very depressing


This is all i got.

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01-22-2013, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Sunshine View Post
I can't blame Babs for not wanting to play a guy like Nyquist over a guy like Cleary, Nyquist has very little on his resume to prove why he should be out over a vet guy, but you have to look at the big picture here. It is very depressing
The thing is, you can blame him.

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01-22-2013, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post


This is all i got.
I'm not sure if this is in reference to the Wings or to the fans like myself who aren't very cheerful with the current situation

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01-22-2013, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Eternal Sunshine View Post
I'm not sure if this is in reference to the Wings or to the fans like myself who aren't very cheerful with the current situation
It's a reference to how fans are slowly starting to feel about the Wings and the situation they they are in.

I spoke to two Toronto fans tonight before the game, and they told me to be prepared to have a lot of sleepless nights. I told them, i was already an insomniac from the last three years.

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01-22-2013, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
It's a reference to how fans are slowly starting to feel about the Wings and the situation they realize they are in.
Well this isn't a sudden realization for myself. I don't know about everyone else. You can't replace Lidstrom. Even Suter wouldn't have made us that good. I would just rather have something to look forward to and ice young guns and core players only, than watch a middle of the road team full of plugs be around .500 for years on end.


edit: my point may seem unclear here - now that Nick is gone we literally have no chance in hell of doing anything noteworthy with our blueline. In reality some moves should have been done within the last ~3 years, but after he left this past summer, Kenny should've really geared toward a new approach. Instead - Samuelsson, Cola. Bert re-signing last season, etc.

Quote:
I spoke to two Toronto fans tonight before the game, and they told me to be prepared to have a lot of sleepless nights. I told them, i was already an insomniac from the last three years.
I grew up 30 mins outside of Toronto so I know exactly what to expect my friends were an irritable bunch for a long time.

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01-22-2013, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Eternal Sunshine View Post
Well this isn't a sudden realization for myself. I don't know about everyone else. You can't replace Lidstrom. Even Suter wouldn't have made us that good. I would just rather have something to look forward to and ice young guns and core players only, than watch a middle of the road team full of plugs be around .500 for years on end.
Totally agree. The absolute worst possible fate of any pro sports team is mediocrity. The Calgary Flames are the perfect example. No hope, but Jay Feaster adds just enough, so the team cant get any high end talent from the draft.

Wings have been marching towards that path since their last trip to the Finals.

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01-22-2013, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Totally agree. The absolute worst possible fate of any pro sports team is mediocrity. The Calgary Flames are the perfect example. No hope, but Jay Feaster adds just enough, so the team cant get any high end talent from the draft.

Wings have been marching towards that path since their last trip to the Finals.
So true. I don't know how the team is doing financially really - have been to very few live Wings games over the last few years. Would doing a total rebuild (not that Kenny will ever do one) be a big deal? Would we still pull in fans to games? Or would it be a risk financially?

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01-22-2013, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Eternal Sunshine View Post
I can't blame Babs for not wanting to play a guy like Nyquist over a guy like Cleary, Nyquist has very little on his resume to prove why he should be out over a vet guy, but you have to look at the big picture here. It is very depressing
His resume is pretty damn good. ppg in the NCAA. ppg in the AHL. He led the entire NCAA in scoring as a sophomore. He was a Hobey Baker finalist. He's a 2 time AHL all-star. He's been top 10 in the AHL scoring for pretty much 2 year's in a row. Lmao.

What red wings prospect that was assigned to GR had a better resume before breaking onto the Wings, would be a better question?

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01-22-2013, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
His resume is pretty damn good. ppg in the NCAA. ppg in the AHL. He led the entire NCAA in scoring as a sophomore. He was a Hobey Baker finalist. He's a 2 time AHL all-star. He's been top 10 in the AHL scoring for pretty much 2 year's in a row. Lmao.

What red wings prospect that was assigned to GR had a better resume before breaking onto the Wings, would be a better question?
Well, I know that. And so does Babs. But Cleary has been a solid role player on a cup winning NHL team. That's what I meant. Babs will obviously throw him out there if he is trying to get back into a game over a rookie.

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01-22-2013, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Eternal Sunshine View Post
So true. I don't know how the team is doing financially really - have been to very few live Wings games over the last few years. Would doing a total rebuild (not that Kenny will ever do one) be a big deal? Would we still pull in fans to games? Or would it be a risk financially?
Sadly, Detroit has a bunch of bandwagon fans. The current fan base hasn't had to endure any real hardship, so they will probably bail at the 1st sign of trouble.

I will stick around, but hardcore NHL fans are an extreme minority. This isn't Toronto.

I really hope Holland isn't doing this because Illitch wants to make as much money as possible. The guy already owns half of Detroit, he can live without the Joe being packed every night.

Rebuild and make it as quick and painless as possible. 2-3 years before they are a playoff team, and 4-5 years before they are contending for the cup.


Last edited by WingedWheel1987: 01-22-2013 at 10:54 PM.
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01-22-2013, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Eternal Sunshine View Post
Well, I know that. And so does Babs. But Cleary has been a solid role player on a cup winning NHL team. That's what I meant. Babs will obviously throw him out there if he is trying to get back into a game over a rookie.
That's the other problem. Babcock's view of players are clouded by who they used to be. Cleary's not as effective as he was 2-3 years ago. Same with Samuelsson. Same with Bertuzzi. These guys are in their 30's and their bodies have a ton of wear on them, and it is really showing.

There are young guys who are hungry and talented and are dying for a chance to play on the Wings. Guys who will be the future, unless their lack of playing time causes them to jump ship.

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01-22-2013, 10:54 PM
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His resume is pretty damn good. ppg in the NCAA. ppg in the AHL. He led the entire NCAA in scoring as a sophomore. He was a Hobey Baker finalist. He's a 2 time AHL all-star. He's been top 10 in the AHL scoring for pretty much 2 year's in a row. Lmao.

What red wings prospect that was assigned to GR had a better resume before breaking onto the Wings, would be a better question?
Jiri Hudler.

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01-22-2013, 10:57 PM
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That's the other problem. Babcock's view of players are clouded by who they used to be. Cleary's not as effective as he was 2-3 years ago. Same with Samuelsson. Same with Bertuzzi. These guys are in their 30's and their bodies have a ton of wear on them, and it is really showing.

There are young guys who are hungry and talented and are dying for a chance to play on the Wings. Guys who will be the future, unless their lack of playing time causes them to jump ship.
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Jiri Hudler.
If we all see this, surely Babs and Holland do too? Its annoying that it seems like they don't see this bigger picture.

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01-22-2013, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Xvash2 View Post
Jiri Hudler.
Hudler's first 2 seasons he had 55 pts in 109 games

Nyquist's first 2 seasons he has 98 points in 95 games.

Assessing them both at the same age, they are not even close...

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01-22-2013, 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Eternal Sunshine View Post
Well this isn't a sudden realization for myself. I don't know about everyone else. You can't replace Lidstrom. Even Suter wouldn't have made us that good. I would just rather have something to look forward to and ice young guns and core players only, than watch a middle of the road team full of plugs be around .500 for years on end.
Completely agree with this here. We are teetering, if not tumbling, towards utter infuriating mediocrity. It's so hard to get excited about guys like Cleary, Samuelsson, Bertuzzi, Colaiacovo et al. when they're just worn out band aids to keep the wheels ticking over. There's no point just topping up when we're going to be middle of the road anyway.

I can handle Smith's mistakes out there and his teething problems. I can't handle Quincey's. Why? Because Smith is a rookie with potential who is learning the ropes. He's got talent and he's worth pumping the time and the games into. Quincey just isn't. Replace Smith's name with Nyquist or Tatar and Quincey with Cleary or Samuelsson and it's the same point.

I'm sitting there watching Brunner fall down from the slightest touch and I'm giving him a free pass. Cleary does the same thing and I rage.

When I saw Nyquist get called up, it added a whole new element to watching the Dallas game - excitement. If we were throwing a team with a few rookies and veterans like Dats and Hank but we getting it handed to us, that's fine. But what about that game when it all clicks and we play some great hockey? An exciting brand of skilled hockey because our young, skilled guys have got it right?

I can go into every game of a 48 game season knowing the odds are that we'll lose because we've got a young team with potential and talent. I can get excited by the prospect that it will be this game that the team clicks. And if we lose, so be it. But we'd be making progress for the future and not pushing ourselves into stagnation.

Although, notice I did say a 48 game season..

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01-23-2013, 12:01 AM
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You all are bandwagon fans!!!!!!!!!!! We are still a cup contender!!!!!!11

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01-23-2013, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
Hudler's first 2 seasons he had 55 pts in 109 games

Nyquist's first 2 seasons he has 98 points in 95 games.

Assessing them both at the same age, they are not even close...
Nyquist's AHL numbers before jumping to the Wings, assuming he's up full-time now:
103GP, 37-65-102

He started in the AHL at 21.

Here are Hudler's AHL stats from the beginning of the season he turned 21 until the end of his AHL career:
128GP, 48-83-131

Hmm. And Hudler was actually 20 at the start of his 128 games; his birthday is in January.

Care to revisit your position?

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01-23-2013, 02:08 AM
  #23
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Sadly, Detroit has a bunch of bandwagon fans. The current fan base hasn't had to endure any real hardship, so they will probably bail at the 1st sign of trouble.

I will stick around, but hardcore NHL fans are an extreme minority. This isn't Toronto.

I really hope Holland isn't doing this because Illitch wants to make as much money as possible. The guy already owns half of Detroit, he can live without the Joe being packed every night.

Rebuild and make it as quick and painless as possible. 2-3 years before they are a playoff team, and 4-5 years before they are contending for the cup.
Are you actually old enough to remember the 80's. Granted I was young but this idea that everything should be blown up is also interesting. It is unlikely to happen soon enough as some hope to cash in. You're at the fate of your draft year and the luck of the lottery. This year appears to be the year to get there, but that would be very hard to do without injuries to the big guns or shipping Datsyuk out tomorrow.

Changes need to be made in how we operate more than likely of this a lot of us agree. But the men in this organization didn't become idiots over night. This hair trigger mentality running around here is dangerous.

This needs to be done correctly. Rapid decisions lead to errors. There is nothing to insure we are Pittsburgh or Chicago and not some of the other unfortunate teams that have attempted the bottom out method. Sure we have money and we like to believe this is still a destination and the Original six and history will save us from the dark ages of Ned, but that is far from a certain outcome either.

They need to make smart decisions and a lot of them hard decisions. We look to be sellers but guess what we do so with a bunch of guys that have Stanley Cup champion on their resume. We are not Calgary in that regard and I really disagree with that team constantly being trotted out. Aside from a big run right before the lockout they have since the mid 90's been constructed in an odd way apart from how normal teams win.

Strong management, strong coaching, plan execution, a wealth of homegrown players, and strong down the middle. Some are not always spot on, but they are there in spades compared to what Calgary has been doing.

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01-23-2013, 05:10 AM
  #24
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Originally Posted by Dechaineux View Post
Completely agree with this here. We are teetering, if not tumbling, towards utter infuriating mediocrity. It's so hard to get excited about guys like Cleary, Samuelsson, Bertuzzi, Colaiacovo et al. when they're just worn out band aids to keep the wheels ticking over. There's no point just topping up when we're going to be middle of the road anyway.

I can handle Smith's mistakes out there and his teething problems. I can't handle Quincey's. Why? Because Smith is a rookie with potential who is learning the ropes. He's got talent and he's worth pumping the time and the games into. Quincey just isn't. Replace Smith's name with Nyquist or Tatar and Quincey with Cleary or Samuelsson and it's the same point.

I'm sitting there watching Brunner fall down from the slightest touch and I'm giving him a free pass. Cleary does the same thing and I rage.

When I saw Nyquist get called up, it added a whole new element to watching the Dallas game - excitement. If we were throwing a team with a few rookies and veterans like Dats and Hank but we getting it handed to us, that's fine. But what about that game when it all clicks and we play some great hockey? An exciting brand of skilled hockey because our young, skilled guys have got it right?

I can go into every game of a 48 game season knowing the odds are that we'll lose because we've got a young team with potential and talent. I can get excited by the prospect that it will be this game that the team clicks. And if we lose, so be it. But we'd be making progress for the future and not pushing ourselves into stagnation.

Although, notice I did say a 48 game season..
Great post. Completely agree with this in every respect.

Whats even more infuriating is that we aren't suggesting that the Wings brass rush prospects into the lineup because the ship might be sinking. Its not like we're asking Adam Almqvist to fill Lidstrom's old role or shoving Martin Frk to the front of the net on the powerplay a la Holmstrom. We're talking about players who had success in juniors and college, only to follow that up with multiple seasons of AHL success. Nyquist, Tatar, and Smith are ready and have been ready. In fact, its a more convincing argument to say they should be getting NHL ice time - and substantial ice time at that - than putzing around in the AHL where they've likely already harnessed all that they can from that league.

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01-23-2013, 06:20 AM
  #25
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Nyquist's AHL numbers before jumping to the Wings, assuming he's up full-time now:
103GP, 37-65-102

He started in the AHL at 21.

Here are Hudler's AHL stats from the beginning of the season he turned 21 until the end of his AHL career:
128GP, 48-83-131

Hmm. And Hudler was actually 20 at the start of his 128 games; his birthday is in January.

Care to revisit your position?
You are absolutely right. I clearly misread his stats last night (I was very tired/a bit drunk.)

I thought I remembered him having 2 so-so seasons in the A before having that big 90 point season, but that wasn't the case.

my apologies to you and xvash for my dumb post.

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