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Top 10 Finnish players of all time.

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01-22-2013, 03:20 PM
  #26
TheDevilMadeMe
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Hyperbole much?
Er, I don't see any hyperbole in calling Bure the best goal scorer in the world for a time...

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01-22-2013, 03:32 PM
  #27
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Er, I don't see any hyperbole in calling Bure the best goal scorer in the world for a time...
For "a time," but not February 1998.

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01-22-2013, 03:36 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
For "a time," but not February 1998.
1 goal from the co-leaders Selanne and Bondra in 1997-98, 13 goals in 11 games in 1998-99, led the league in goals in both 1999-00 and 2000-01, on top of his performance in the 1998 Olympics. I don't find it strange to call Bure the best goal scorer in the world over this period.

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01-22-2013, 03:44 PM
  #29
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Taking international play into account, the no-brainers for me are (in no particular order):

Kurri, Selänne, S. Koivu, M. Koivu, Numminen, Timonen, Peltonen and Lehtinen.

After these guys it gets more difficult. You could make a case for both Helminen and Sami Kapanen, maybe Nummelin as well, but personally I've never been as impressed by them as others. I think most people would have at least Helminen on the list. O. Jokinen and Kiprusoff are omitted from my list because of their reputations and somewhat underwhelming performances compared to expectations. Based on talent and NHL career Kipper belongs on the list, but his attitude towards the national team has left a lot to be desired from the average Finnish hockey fan's POV, so he doesn't get the nod.

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01-22-2013, 03:44 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
1 goal from the co-leaders Selanne and Bondra in 1997-98, 13 goals in 11 games in 1998-99, led the league in goals in both 1999-00 and 2000-01, on top of his performance in the 1998 Olympics. I don't find it strange to call Bure the best goal scorer in the world over this period.
1 goal behind Selanne who played 9 fewer games, had a better Olympics, was seven goals ahead of him in the goal race at the time, would win the inaugural Rocket Richard the following season, and finished one goal behind Keith Tkachuk the prior season because he played in fewer games.

And somehow the guy coming off of 23 in 63, 6 in 15, and 20 in 44 in the three years prior is the best goal scorer in the world in February 1998? Because he lights up Finland? Teemu Selanne had more goals in 1997 OR 1998 than Pavel Bure did from 1994-95, 1995-96, and 1996-97 combined.

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01-22-2013, 04:56 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
1 goal behind Selanne who played 9 fewer games, had a better Olympics, was seven goals ahead of him in the goal race at the time, would win the inaugural Rocket Richard the following season, and finished one goal behind Keith Tkachuk the prior season because he played in fewer games.

And somehow the guy coming off of 23 in 63, 6 in 15, and 20 in 44 in the three years prior is the best goal scorer in the world in February 1998? Because he lights up Finland? Teemu Selanne had more goals in 1997 OR 1998 than Pavel Bure did from 1994-95, 1995-96, and 1996-97 combined.
Bringing up '94/95, '95/96, and '96/97 means nothing unless Bure's '93/94 counts. If he was the best goal scorer then, what did anyone do to take away Bure's "title"? Have well-timed big seasons playing on lines with post-season all-stars while Bure missed games with injury? Selanne with Tkachuk in '94/95 and '95/96, then Kariya from the end of '95/96 until the next millenium (but more to the point, for the stretch that Kariya was a 1st team all-star while Bure was missing time), Bondra with Oates, etc.

Considering where he ranked in Feb. '98, how he finished out the rest of the season, that his only sample for the following (partial) season was 13 goals in 11 games, and that he won the next two scoring titles after that (scoring more than the next three top scorers on his team combined both times, mind you), you can certainly argue for someone else instead (and make a decent case, no doubt) but you can't exactly argue against Bure's case, or deny his candidacy in the discussion - even with a specific point in time, Feb. '98, in mind. Also subjectivity greying the area between "best" and "most prolific", etc.

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01-22-2013, 06:16 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Bringing up '94/95, '95/96, and '96/97 means nothing unless Bure's '93/94 counts.
So the three seasons immediately prior to the time in question (February 1998) cannot count unless the fourth season immediately prior to them also counts? Why would I ever buy that argument?

You don't see me talking about 1993! There were three years leading up to 1998 that didn't do anything to make Bure - clearly the inferior goal scorer in 1998 - worthy of being called a better goal scorer than Selanne. John LeClair would be a better answer than Pavel Bure!

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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
If he was the best goal scorer then, what did anyone do to take away Bure's "title"? Have well-timed big seasons playing on lines with post-season all-stars while Bure missed games with injury?
Top-Two in Goals, 1997-1999
1997: Tkachuk, 52 in 81; Selanne, 51 in 78
1998: Selanne, 52 in 73; Bondra, 52 in 76
1999: Selanne, 47 in 75; Jagr, 44 in 81

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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Considering where he ranked in Feb. '98, how he finished out the rest of the season
He caught up because Teemu Selanne was injured in the Olympics. And Selanne still won the race after sitting out the last several games of the season.

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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
his only sample for the following (partial) season was 13 goals in 11 games
Was Peter Forsberg the best player in the 2008 season too?

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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
you can't exactly argue against Bure's case, or deny his candidacy in the discussion - even with a specific point in time, Feb. '98, in mind.
Why would there be any discussion when it is clearly in the middle of a three-year sample in which Teemu Selanne is the only answer? Going two years into the future or four years into the past to make an argument about their relative statuses in February 1998 is ludicrous.

I mean, Alex Ovechkin had a pretty good season four years ago. If he has another one in two years, is he the best player in January 2013?

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01-22-2013, 06:24 PM
  #33
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I would be very intrested to know who would you rank above Myllys if he is not even in your top ten. I´m not going to torture myself and look clips from that Russia match, but painfull memories tell me that there were atleast three (or four?) breakaways to Bure from horrible defensemen mistakes? Thats not really a winning strategy nomather whos in goal.

If Myllys had been in goal in 1994 Lillehammer semifinal against Canada we would have taken gold from there.
Urpo Ylönen
Jorma Valtonen
Stig Wetzell
Hannu Kamppuri
Markus Ketterer
Miikka Kiprusoff
Pekka Rinne
Niklas Bäckström
Markus Mattson

Just from the top of my head. In my opinion Myllys is glorified like Jutila and couple others, and don't deserve the hype they get. (altho Jutila doesn't deserve the ridicule he gets nowadays either)

A true elite goaltender would've made a save on one or two of those Bure goals. Sulander would've made it impossible for at least one of those goals just because of his positional awareness and basic style. But you're correct in that those were defensive mistakes in the first place...still, Myllys would be a very bad shootout goalie. And breakaways are like shootouts.

As for whatifs...Finland would've won Torino if Saku Koivu's stick didn't break. And then we'd list Antero Niittymäki here. (he was awesome in Torino)

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01-22-2013, 06:40 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
So the three seasons immediately prior to the time in question (February 1998) cannot count unless the fourth season immediately prior to them also counts? Why would I ever buy that argument?

You don't see me talking about 1993! There were three years leading up to 1998 that didn't do anything to make Bure - clearly the inferior goal scorer in 1998 - worthy of being called a better goal scorer than Selanne. John LeClair would be a better answer than Pavel Bure!


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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Top-Two in Goals, 1997-1999
1997: Tkachuk, 52 in 81; Selanne, 51 in 78
1998: Selanne, 52 in 73; Bondra, 52 in 76
1999: Selanne, 47 in 75; Jagr, 44 in 81



He caught up because Teemu Selanne was injured in the Olympics. And Selanne still won the race after sitting out the last several games of the season.



Was Peter Forsberg the best player in the 2008 season too?



Why would there be any discussion when it is clearly in the middle of a three-year sample in which Teemu Selanne is the only answer? Going two years into the future or four years into the past to make an argument about their relative statuses in February 1998 is ludicrous.

I mean, Alex Ovechkin had a pretty good season four years ago. If he has another one in two years, is he the best player in January 2013?
Listen, just get it over with and tell us that you can't be the best player without getting the most points, either. I'll disagree with that, too. To believe that Bure became "worse" at goal scoring between '94 and '98 is fine - he did have to deal with injury and rehab/reintegration multiple times during that time frame - but to put so much stock in raw aggregate numbers with a blind eye to absolutely everything else we can look at in hindsight is just ludicrous.

No one watching hockey at the time would have been quick at all to say Selanne OR Bondra were "better goal scorers" at the time. Had better seasons? Yes. Proved better at goal scoring than Bure had in '93/94, or again in '99/00 and '00/01? Probably not. Best goal scorers during Bure's absence/inconsistent return from injury? Almost certainly, but it's still arguable since a guy called Mario Lemieux had 69 and 50 goals when Selanne put up his 40 and 51. In any event, just accept that it's arguable at best, and that nothing and no one is "clearly inferior" in this regard, no matter how you slice it, at any point, let alone Feb. '98, as you claim.

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01-22-2013, 06:59 PM
  #35
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@Obashi

Your opinion seems to be based on whatif Bure had been healthy. He wasn't.
In comparison, if Selänne had been healthy during the San Jose and Colorado years and netted 40-50+ goals each season (reasonable estimate since he banked 40+ on both 06 and 07), he would probably be in consideration for the best RW of all time, and top20 player of all time. But he wasn't healthy.
Selänne did get a total knee reconstruction and returned to elite level. Bure had priorities other than hockey. But that had been obvious already from his sitting out and refusing to play. money, vodka, women..
Similar sitting out is why I don't like Kariya. Greed looks nasty.

Anyways this is about Finnish players, not Bure.

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01-22-2013, 08:03 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
1 goal behind Selanne who played 9 fewer games, had a better Olympics, was seven goals ahead of him in the goal race at the time, would win the inaugural Rocket Richard the following season, and finished one goal behind Keith Tkachuk the prior season because he played in fewer games.

And somehow the guy coming off of 23 in 63, 6 in 15, and 20 in 44 in the three years prior is the best goal scorer in the world in February 1998? Because he lights up Finland? Teemu Selanne had more goals in 1997 OR 1998 than Pavel Bure did from 1994-95, 1995-96, and 1996-97 combined.
whoa buddy

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01-22-2013, 08:10 PM
  #37
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Well. Matti Hagman is the best Finnish center to ever play the game. He was better than Mess, but got overshadowed by Gretzky obviously. There are quotes of him given by his team mates from when he was in Edmonton.
Raimo Helminen is a legend in Finnish hockey, but not in the top ten. I think he lacked the drive to become 100%
Rautakallio, Ketola, Marjamäki and Oksanen (along with many others) are first truly great finnish players. Rautakallio in modern times would be like Pronger. Ketola like Getzlaf. But these guys were playing hockey as a hobby.

Helminen with modern training could've been a Thornton or Oates, except he was always bit lazy.
Matti Hagman, with his skillset, and modern training would probably be the best player in the NHL.[/B]
Maybe I'm missing something here but we have a pretty large sample for Hagman in the NHL, and not in a super strong era, and his results were good to pretty good, not great or close to being the best player in the NHL.

Did something get lost in translation?

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01-22-2013, 08:33 PM
  #38
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NHL:

1. Teemu Selänne
2. Jari Kurri
3. Teppo Numminen
4. Esa Tikkanen
5. Saku Koivu
6. Jere Lehtinen
7. Kimmo Timonen
8. Reijo Ruotsalainen
9. Olli Jokinen
10. Jyrki Lumme

If international games are taken into account, this gets more complicated.

Edit: not sure about the knowledgeable part but submitted my list anyway ;-)
Damn... That's a surprisingly weak top 10. Guys like Kipprusoff and even Pekka Rinne could't slot in front of a guy like Olli Jokinen?

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01-22-2013, 09:54 PM
  #39
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I watched Teppo first hand for several years, Selanne and Kurri as well.

There is a reason why he's number 3 on the list, his defensive IQ was off the charts, you could not measure his greatness with stats. Many players over the years mentioned how great he really was, the man they called 'Repo man'
This. He is the king of the underrated. Incredible player and I miss him on the national team.

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01-22-2013, 09:56 PM
  #40
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Damn... That's a surprisingly weak top 10. Guys like Kipprusoff and even Pekka Rinne could't slot in front of a guy like Olli Jokinen?
I did only skaters, as I mentioned.

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01-22-2013, 10:54 PM
  #41
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@Obashi

Your opinion seems to be based on whatif Bure had been healthy. He wasn't.
Actually, it was quite specifically about February of 1998, when Bure was perfectly healthy (or at least, didn't miss any regular season games). The rest is just context about the player we're talking about, what his reputation was before and after said time, and how it was that anyone else entered the conversation in the mean time and the relative strength of their claims in a completely arguable debate either way (i.e. more than just "one answer", to re-quote qpq).

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01-22-2013, 11:29 PM
  #42
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@Obashi

Your opinion seems to be based on whatif Bure had been healthy. He wasn't.
In comparison, if Selänne had been healthy during the San Jose and Colorado years and netted 40-50+ goals each season (reasonable estimate since he banked 40+ on both 06 and 07), he would probably be in consideration for the best RW of all time, and top20 player of all time. But he wasn't healthy.
Selänne did get a total knee reconstruction and returned to elite level. Bure had priorities other than hockey. But that had been obvious already from his sitting out and refusing to play. money, vodka, women..
Similar sitting out is why I don't like Kariya. Greed looks nasty.

Anyways this is about Finnish players, not Bure.
Dude, you have got to stop putting Selanne in the discussion of the best RW ever. Even with healthy he would never have been able to compete the top spot.

But I agree with quoipourquoi that in 1998 Selanne was the best scorer in the world. But there is no reason not to think Bure was coming behind and could pull ahead at any given time. (Which he did in the end).

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01-22-2013, 11:57 PM
  #43
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No one watching hockey at the time would have been quick at all to say Selanne OR Bondra were "better goal scorers" at the time. Had better seasons? Yes. Proved better at goal scoring than Bure had in '93/94, or again in '99/00 and '00/01? Probably not. Best goal scorers during Bure's absence/inconsistent return from injury? Almost certainly, but it's still arguable since a guy called Mario Lemieux had 69 and 50 goals when Selanne put up his 40 and 51. In any event, just accept that it's arguable at best, and that nothing and no one is "clearly inferior" in this regard, no matter how you slice it, at any point, let alone Feb. '98, as you claim.
How's this: No.

If I'm trying to pinpoint who is the best goal scorer at a given time, and I've got a player who leads the league this year, leads the league the next year, and finished 2nd place by one goal last year because #1 played three more games, then I've got the guy. And at the very least, I know it's not the guy who finished third to him this year despite playing nine more games, doesn't play the next season, and scored at a sub-30 pace the year before. Oh, sure, he was really good four years ago, and will be really good again in two years, but he's not the best goal scorer now. He's inferior to the guy with the two #1 finishes and the close #2. And John LeClair. Clearly.

Though for what it's worth, at the time of the Nagano Olympics, Pavel Bure had cracked the 30-goal mark in a season for the first time in four years, so he had that going for him in this argument as to being the best goal scorer in the world in 1998...

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01-23-2013, 12:07 AM
  #44
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whoa buddy

[/URL]
Do you know how many of Bure's 9 Olympic goals were actually on NHL goaltenders?

Not one.

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01-23-2013, 12:29 AM
  #45
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whereas selanne scored that one glorious 5-on-3 goal on superstar mikhail shtalenkov while watching bure beat the living hell out of his team and relegating them to the bronze medal game.



teemu!

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01-23-2013, 12:50 AM
  #46
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How's this: No.

If I'm trying to pinpoint who is the best goal scorer at a given time, and I've got a player who leads the league this year, leads the league the next year, and finished 2nd place by one goal last year because #1 played three more games, then I've got the guy. And at the very least, I know it's not the guy who finished third to him this year despite playing nine more games, doesn't play the next season, and scored at a sub-30 pace the year before. Oh, sure, he was really good four years ago, and will be really good again in two years, but he's not the best goal scorer now. He's inferior to the guy with the two #1 finishes and the close #2. And John LeClair. Clearly.

Though for what it's worth, at the time of the Nagano Olympics, Pavel Bure had cracked the 30-goal mark in a season for the first time in four years, so he had that going for him in this argument as to being the best goal scorer in the world in 1998...
Fair enough. I guess it is not debatable that at that given time Selanne was the best scorer in the world.

In hindsight, we will learn that Bure was at least as good as Selanne and most would think he was better. But at the exact time 1998 it is fair to say Selanne was the best.

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01-23-2013, 06:27 AM
  #47
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Kid's these days..

1988 Calgary winter olympics - 1995 world championships

The two biggest achievements by Finnish hockey, powered by Jarmo Myllys.
Sure he got Bure'd, but back in those days thats what Finnish defenders did to their goalies.

How many tournaments have we changed #1 goalie mid-tournament because they stank? Easier question is how many have we not.

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01-23-2013, 06:50 AM
  #48
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Kid's these days..

1988 Calgary winter olympics - 1995 world championships

The two biggest achievements by Finnish hockey
, powered by Jarmo Myllys.
Sure he got Bure'd, but back in those days thats what Finnish defenders did to their goalies.

How many tournaments have we changed #1 goalie mid-tournament because they stank? Easier question is how many have we not.
I think World Cup of Hockey 2004 and Turin 2006 were bigger achievements, due to the level of players involved (although the 2004 event is heavily pro-NA/Canada biased). One could even argue that Nagano 1998 and Vancouver 2010 achievements are bigger than the ones you mention - at least they are very close.

And before you mention kids again, I've been watching hockey for 35 almost 40 years...ever since mid-70ies

Edit: emotionally 1988 and 1995 were huge, though.

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01-23-2013, 08:12 AM
  #49
Merya
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Dude, you have got to stop putting Selanne in the discussion of the best RW ever. Even with healthy he would never have been able to compete the top spot.
Why?
In that hypothetical scenario, healthy Selänne would've banked 3-4 seasons of 40-50+ goals, won couple Richard trophies. Why wouldn't that hypothetical Selänne be in consideration for the best RW ever? He'd be over Jagr by a hundred goals in that scenario.

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01-23-2013, 08:24 AM
  #50
Merya
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In hindsight, we will learn that Bure was at least as good as Selanne and most would think he was better. But at the exact time 1998 it is fair to say Selanne was the best.
Bure better than Selänne? That's a bold statement. Selänne has better career by far. Better peak also. Prime is pretty even, except Selänne's prime lasted longer the first time, and had another "prime" at 35+. (arguably still going on with having most points in the horrid ducks team last season)
Selänne also never sat out half a season because of money.

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