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Phoenix LXVIII - "Watch out for that Tree"

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Old
01-23-2013, 11:06 AM
  #676
pondnorth
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Originally Posted by NHLfan4life View Post
Well, I heard from my friend who was there that it was much much lower. Maybe 10000 wandered through but none standing there all at once. Wonder what happened to this money they raised?
Much ,much lower like average attendance at a Yotes game.35000 for Winnipeg a city of 1m.200 for Phoenix a city of 5m.The fans have spoken and you are dark green with envy.Is the realization that its over in the desert (8 days) bringing this out of you.Relax it will be over soon.

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01-23-2013, 11:11 AM
  #677
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Much ,much lower like average attendance at a Yotes game.35000 for Winnipeg a city of 1m.200 for Phoenix a city of 5m.The fans have spoken and you are dark green with envy.Is the realization that its over in the desert (8 days) bringing this out of you.Relax it will be over soon.
You guys still debating a rally held in 1996!

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01-23-2013, 11:16 AM
  #678
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You guys still debating a rally held in 1996!
No point in arguing it, really. Winnipeg is a smaller city, but the hockey market is huge. Winnipeg actually gets snow and many grow up with the game. Phoenix doesn't get snow and many have never paid due attention to the NHL before 1996 (or at all in general.) Winnipeg will get bigger crowds because the game means more to them. Can't argue that because it's truth.

But if the situation were reversed and if the Phoenix Suns were to move to Winnipeg, you can bet there'd be a huge number of Phoenicians (Phoenxians?) out to a "Save our Suns" rally, and you wouldn't get the same reaction in Winnipeg for basketball.

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01-23-2013, 11:17 AM
  #679
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How funny is that! However, my bet is that Jan. 31st comes and goes w/o much fanfare from any of the three parties. If the new Mayor has an ounce of wisdom he will definitively end this incestuous relationship with GJ and the NHL. Let the NHL swallow hard on their bad decisions regarding Glendale and take their financial lumps, the city will be far better off without having to hand out taxpayer money!

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01-23-2013, 11:17 AM
  #680
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I won't judge Glendale for choosing Clark as a councilwoman... But, uh, you need to be a professional on twitter if you're in the public eye. "Cluster****" isn't exactly a word that a respected public official would or should use on social media.
Nah - it just shows she's been an avid reader of the ownership threads on the 'Yotes board.

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01-23-2013, 11:28 AM
  #681
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Nah - it just shows she's been an avid reader of the ownership threads on the 'Yotes board.
She just seems a little jealous that she's no longer in council.

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01-23-2013, 11:33 AM
  #682
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All this stuff about fan base will only matter IF GJ doesn't buy the team. It will be the narrative for why relocation was necessary.

But at this point in time, I don't really see how it matters so long as a willing buyer wants to keep the team in Phoenix and can work out an acceptable arena deal with the City where the team will play. The buyer may be stupid and the City insane in the opinion of many posters on this board, but that opinion doesn't really matter.

Arizona is a troubled market. I don't know why people feel the need to continue to point that out. It is a given already. One week left and the clock is ticking off. It doesn't look good right now for the team to stay. If it does stay, well then the CoG, the NHL and GJ pulled this out of the fire.

The only comment I will make after the 31st is that if the team is going to relocate, please God, send the team to QC. There is simply NO EVIDENCE that Seattle will work any better than Phoenix did as a hockey market. In 5 years, I could see the NHL having problems in Seattle. So long as the exchange rate doesn't go entirely crazy, with the new CBA can anyone seriously doublt hockey in QC would be a financial success?

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01-23-2013, 11:38 AM
  #683
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But at this point in time, I don't really see how it matters so long as a willing buyer wants to keep the team in Phoenix and can work out an acceptable arena deal with the City where the team will play. The buyer may be stupid and the City insane in the opinion of many posters on this board, but that opinion doesn't really matter.
In your opinion, what would be an "acceptable arena deal"?

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01-23-2013, 11:43 AM
  #684
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You guys still debating a rally held in 1996!
Your right, i should have pro-rated it to 2013 numbers.Lets say Winnipeg 50000,Phoenix 300.

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01-23-2013, 11:47 AM
  #685
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No point in arguing it, really. Winnipeg is a smaller city, but the hockey market is huge. Winnipeg actually gets snow and many grow up with the game. Phoenix doesn't get snow and many have never paid due attention to the NHL before 1996 (or at all in general.) Winnipeg will get bigger crowds because the game means more to them. Can't argue that because it's truth.

But if the situation were reversed and if the Phoenix Suns were to move to Winnipeg, you can bet there'd be a huge number of Phoenicians (Phoenxians?) out to a "Save our Suns" rally, and you wouldn't get the same reaction in Winnipeg for basketball.
What`s basketball.Oh wait i know,the Vancouver Grizzlies.

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01-23-2013, 11:54 AM
  #686
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In your opinion, what would be an "acceptable arena deal"?
On the one hand, I am tempted to say whatever "most" teams get with arenas. Something in the range of "standard". On the other hand, I want to say "whatever the market allows". The truth is, the CoG and the Coyotes are in a very unique situation. The arena located in the CoG has no other anchor tenant, and no good prospects to fill dates given the glut in concert venues that already exist in Phoenix. That is simply a fact. And, most standard arena deals are not negotiated under the threat of relocation. So, I don't think you can compare the CoG arena deal to something say, in Chicago, LA, etc. There are market forces at play here that make the CoG deal "wonky".

Is it acceptable? I guess. The CoG has accepted it. The citizens of Glendale had a chance to refer the measure (twice) for public vote and they didn't seem to want to cancel the deal. GJ seems willing to accept the deal. So, I guess I would have to say the current arena deal is within the range of "acceptable".

I make no comment on whether it will pass a legal challenge, although I don't really think it will see a legal challenge given that one of the directors of the GWI is currently seeking to have their team deal redone, and the Suns are looking for changes to their arena deal with the City of Phoenix. I could be wrong, but I think this is something the GWI will use as an example of what they are against, and a reason to challenge maybe another City's decision under the gift clause. Just my opinion. I don't claim any real insight into what the GWI will actually do if the arena deal is signed.

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01-23-2013, 12:23 PM
  #687
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The only comment I will make after the 31st is that if the team is going to relocate, please God, send the team to QC. There is simply NO EVIDENCE that Seattle will work any better than Phoenix did as a hockey market. In 5 years, I could see the NHL having problems in Seattle. So long as the exchange rate doesn't go entirely crazy, with the new CBA can anyone seriously doublt hockey in QC would be a financial success?
I agree with this in theory. I personally don't see how Seattle is better than Phoenix. I'd say they're the same. People here will bash that mercilessly, but I'm confident you and I both understand each other, here. They'll be shiny and new in Seattle for a while, but they won't have the sixteen plus years of built in game growth (say what you want, but it's pretty clear there is a small but certainly not irrelevant number of loyal die-hards). Then again, the Phoenix Coyotes have undeniably suffered from terrible timing, over and over again. I'd suspect Seattle wouldn't have quite the same degree of tough luck. They'll build their arena dowtown, rather than in a distant suburb ravaged by the bursting of the housing bubble. They won't hand the keys to Wayne Gretzky and suffer his cronyism. They won't be used as a money laundering front from a struggling businessman at the end of his wits. All of that sort of thing.

I also agree that QC will likely be an overwhelming success for the next ten or fifteen years, at least.

Having said all of that, I'd still prefer Seattle (even though I consider Quebec the safer, and more deserving market) simply because Don Maloney, Dave Tippett, and maybe even Shane Doan might be willing to move to Seattle and continue what they've started in Phoenix. I can't see those Three Amigos riding off to QC.

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Old
01-23-2013, 12:29 PM
  #688
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In your opinion, what would be an "acceptable arena deal"?
For me, it would be one where the taxpayers aren't on the hook for an obvious subsidy, to the amount being agreed to ....BUT the CoG taxpayers had more than enough time to stop this deal dead in its tracks and chose to let it go through, so to the people that really count... it must be acceptable. And if lived in Glendale and as a result get lay'ed off or someone I know gets let go as a result of the cutbacks that have to come, well, again I voted for it, so no crying.

Ask the NHL the same question and their response would be the same... it's acceptable because the CoG voted for it.

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01-23-2013, 12:30 PM
  #689
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Youre just pissy because like every other HF poster thats not from an original 6 team or canadian team with such an inferiority complex...get so defensive. Its not even about manhattan vs phoenix...prices are paid high because fans are willing to go and theres a waiting list for season tickets , and people pay annually to be on that waiting list. I dont screw myself at all, Im a die hard fan, been my whole life, it wasnt my owners fault there was a lockout, wasnt my teams fault....it was the fault of bettman protecting teams that cant keep up. Bottom line, its forcing his agenda not realizing he screwed up placing teams in crappy markets. If you cant keep up, you gotta be cut...simple lesson of life that applies to all things.
I think you got me wrong. Hockey is an entertainment option which I happen to enjoy. There are no complexes associated with it - inferiority or other. Once again, if you have such deep rooted dissatisfied with how the NHL is governed, your recourse would be to stop consuming the product.

It seems that your main point of contention is the price you pay compared to the price paid in Phoenix. It's curious that you suggest relocating the franchise would cure this, as the price point for Rangers game would not likely change as a result of moving the Coyotes. Perhaps a better solution for your problem would be you moving to Glendale where you could acquire the product at a lower cost rather than your awkward suggestion that attendees in other markets pay higher rates so you feel less "screwed"

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01-23-2013, 12:32 PM
  #690
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Joyce Clark‏@clarkjv

Cluster F--k at Gl council mtg. New mayor confused and Knaack is no help. Alvarez absent again. Seating: Sherwood, Knaack, (contd)



Joyce, Joyce, Joyce... so obviously bitter about getting put on her can.

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01-23-2013, 12:36 PM
  #691
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Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
Joyce Clark‏@clarkjv

Cluster F--k at Gl council mtg. New mayor confused and Knaack is no help. Alvarez absent again. Seating: Sherwood, Knaack, (contd)



Joyce, Joyce, Joyce... so obviously bitter about getting put on her can.
She needs to ride gracefully into the sunset. Not going to happen. She has also retweeted some pictures of Alvarez that are really not in good taste.

Loose cannon is the best term for her at this point. I wonder what comments we will see from her if GJ doesn't close and she stuck out her political neck to back the arena deal. The fur will fly and so will the tweets, IMO.

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01-23-2013, 12:41 PM
  #692
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Joyce Clark‏@clarkjv

Cluster F--k at Gl council mtg. New mayor confused and Knaack is no help. Alvarez absent again. Seating: Sherwood, Knaack, (contd)



Joyce, Joyce, Joyce... so obviously bitter about getting put on her can.
I don't care where you are (so this isn't a shot at Glendale), municipal politics is an absolute ****show. To assume anybody involved has even an ounce of brains, class, decorum, or anything else, is giving them way too much credit.

Is that "Norma" person, who she tweeted the photoshops of, is that the new mayor?

Wow!

I mean, I know I said you can't assume municipal politicians have any class, but...holy hell. I would still expect them to now behave like 12 year olds.

Just pathetic.

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01-23-2013, 12:59 PM
  #693
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She needs to ride gracefully into the sunset. Not going to happen. She has also retweeted some pictures of Alvarez that are really not in good taste.

Loose cannon is the best term for her at this point. I wonder what comments we will see from her if GJ doesn't close and she stuck out her political neck to back the arena deal. The fur will fly and so will the tweets, IMO.
Not exactly new ground here, but it seems pretty obvious that Clark is not actually the person authoring the posts, no? A 70-year-old is "trolling" Twitter? I doubt it.

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01-23-2013, 01:20 PM
  #694
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Something in the range of "standard".
This arrangement is far from standard.

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The truth is, the CoG and the Coyotes are in a very unique situation.
Indeed. Unique in that a municipality, that is already running at a deficit, is furthering that deficit with it's AMF... and it's rating... and at a cost of cutting services... and a temporary tax initiative that will sunset... and so on.

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The arena located in the CoG has no other anchor tenant, and no good prospects to fill dates given the glut in concert venues that already exist in Phoenix. That is simply a fact.
I'm not sure I understand this statement. Are you saying that because of competition it justifies a $15M+ annual Management Fee?

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. And, most standard arena deals are not negotiated under the threat of relocation.
Yes they most certainly are. In fact, relo is often the piece pulled and held to the head of any city if things aren't harmonious in negotiations. You can train your eyes to look at Edmonton/Katz, ______ NFL Team "We're thinking of L.A.", and what about the very team we're discussing right here and now? You and the other fans are the direct beneficiaries of a failed arena deal negotiation... among other things.

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So, I don't think you can compare the CoG arena deal to something say, in Chicago, LA, etc.
You're right, we can't. They own their's.

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There are market forces at play here that make the CoG deal "wonky".
Agreed.

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Is it acceptable?
Apparently... easily acceptable, isn't it, when the majority of those who find it acceptable aren't directly impacted by the ramifications.

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The CoG has accepted it.
What choice, right? A small municipality wanting to play "Big Time" and sold on the Ellman notion of "If you build it, they will come"

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The citizens of Glendale had a chance to refer the measure (twice) for public vote and they didn't seem to want to cancel the deal.
That is true. Wonder if the outcome would have been different had their been more competency applied behind the ballot measure and it's execution during the ref window.

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GJ seems willing to accept the deal.
You think?

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01-23-2013, 01:49 PM
  #695
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Not exactly new ground here, but it seems pretty obvious that Clark is not actually the person authoring the posts, no? A 70-year-old is "trolling" Twitter? I doubt it.
B-b-b-but Manti Te'o assured them it's his girlfriend Joyce Clark, and they have to believe him because they saw it on the internet and the internet can't lie!!!

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01-23-2013, 02:01 PM
  #696
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Nah - it just shows she's been an avid reader of the ownership threads on the 'Yotes board.
..... "cluster****" kdb? Dont see it appearing here all that much, as the majority of us are either Mormons or Fundamentalist Christian Baptists who simply wont swear for fear of Eternal Damnation....

then of course theres that little matter of the Filters employed on this site, perfectly suitable words & pejorative terms used in everyday parlance censored. So, in my never-ending quest for truth, justice & freedom, Ive decided its time to provide a list of suitable acronyms for use by one and all as used by the military, widely in the sports & entertainment sectors.

BOHICA; Bend over, here it comes again.
DILLIGAF; Does it look like I give a ****?
HMFIC; Head Mother****ers in Charge.
HUOA; Heads up ones ***.
FUBAR; ****ed Up Beyond Repair.
LLMF; Lost like a Mother****er.
FRED; ****ing ***ard, Extra Dumb.
FIFO; Fit in, or **** Off.
CYA; Cover your ***.

and if you do get burned for using any of these acronyms? DEH; Dont Expect Help.

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01-23-2013, 02:08 PM
  #697
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I think you got me wrong. Hockey is an entertainment option which I happen to enjoy. There are no complexes associated with it - inferiority or other. Once again, if you have such deep rooted dissatisfied with how the NHL is governed, your recourse would be to stop consuming the product.

It seems that your main point of contention is the price you pay compared to the price paid in Phoenix. It's curious that you suggest relocating the franchise would cure this, as the price point for Rangers game would not likely change as a result of moving the Coyotes. Perhaps a better solution for your problem would be you moving to Glendale where you could acquire the product at a lower cost rather than your awkward suggestion that attendees in other markets pay higher rates so you feel less "screwed"
One begins to suspect that some people are let us say... amazing -when they are complaining they pay too much for tickets to games. How do they type with their arms so twisted up by the NHL I wonder? Amazing...

As you so eloquently said, "...if you have such deep rooted dissatisfied with how the NHL is governed, your recourse would be to stop consuming the product."

No one is twisting the guys arm to buy an NHL ticket. I heard from several sources the other day a clown in a Hawks jersey was in a Phoenix steakhouse eating a $50 steak, and crying to everyone how he was getting screwed paying $50 for that steak. The maitre d' went to his table, grabbed him by the earlobe and kicked him in the *** repeatedly towards the front door, telling him he was banned from ever coming back, to a round of raucous applause as the door closed on him. Someone said they saw him picking up a Taco Bell free taco coupon out of the gutter. I'm sure it's true, it's so believable...

Of course, in Manhattan that $50 Phoenix steak would no doubt have set him back $140, but I digress. Not sure what reminded me of that. Probably the number of 'rally' posts today.


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01-23-2013, 02:13 PM
  #698
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Well, I heard from my friend who was there that it was much much lower. Maybe 10000 wandered through but none standing there all at once. Wonder what happened to this money they raised?

I was at the rally. There was a *boat*load of people there, way more than 10,000, and most stayed for the whole event. There were multiple musical acts and members of the Jets attended. If people donated through cheque (such as myself) or credit card they had their money refunded. If people had given cash the money was donated to the 'Goals for Kids' charity run by the Jets and distributed as that charity saw fit.

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01-23-2013, 02:21 PM
  #699
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...

Yes they most certainly are. In fact, relo is often the piece pulled and held to the head of any city if things aren't harmonious in negotiations. You can train your eyes to look at Edmonton/Katz, ______ NFL Team "We're thinking of L.A.", and what about the very team we're discussing right here and now? You and the other fans are the direct beneficiaries of a failed arena deal negotiation... among other things.
...
Nordiques are another example of this. When they left in 1995, it is because municipal, provincial and federal branches of government refused to give money to Marcel Aubut and/or pay him to build a new arena.

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01-23-2013, 02:28 PM
  #700
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FUBAR; ****ed Up Beyond Repair.
not "beyond repair", it is "beyond all recognition", "any repair" or "all reason" but the first one is the best

My favorite is TARFU tho.

Please continue with your regular scheduled programing.

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