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P.K. Subban Thread - 5.0 - The "Doughty Money Vs. Lowball Bridge" Edition

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Old
01-23-2013, 12:34 PM
  #251
TheGoalJudge
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Everyone please realize that even if you criticize someone it's still possible to like that person.

It's hilarious when a Hab says something about Subban. It's either: he likes him or he hates him. Subban is either liked or disliked.

For example, maybe Gorges doesn't like that he's not training with the team but maybe Gorges still likes PK's personality, energy, style in the lockerroom. But maybe he just dislikes that one aspect of what PK's doing.

Even if PK is the cockiest MFer in the world, it still wouldn't make him a "lockerroom cancer". You have to be more than cocky to be a cancer. It takes way more than that.

And everyone on the team doesn't have to be friends either. Maybe some guys don't really care for PK's style. But that doesn't mean they hope Chara breaks his neck one night. They probably just go about their business. I really really can't see PK being a guy that people will HATE.

I mean, honestly, he would be the last guy I would say is disliked. Would some guys be indifferent? Maybe? Probably? Would they hope he gets traded? Doubt it.

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01-23-2013, 12:35 PM
  #252
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What do you think the value of pk subban is? on a sign and trade..what could we get back from..let's say...detroit or philly...or anyone

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01-23-2013, 12:37 PM
  #253
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Markov has 1 good game in 2 years against a dead beat team and now we are ready to move on and trade PK.

Genius fans living in the past.

Markov is to the Canadiens as to Lidstrom was for the Wings ..?? really GTFO

Only difference was that Lidstrom was tough as nails and never injured and Markov is fragile and injury prone.

I'll take a team of 20 PK Subban's over 20 Markov's

PK can come close to Markov's greatest assets, but Markov can't come close to PK's greatest assets.

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01-23-2013, 12:38 PM
  #254
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Thank god PG is no longer GM. PK would have already been traded for Lecavalier... Chelios-Savard, anyone?

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01-23-2013, 12:39 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by bigtimehockeyfan999 View Post
What do you think the value of pk subban is? on a sign and trade..what could we get back from..let's say...detroit or philly...or anyone
I don't see a sign-and-trade, the only reason to do that would be to get an 8 year deal instead of 7.

I still don't see him getting traded. Maybe if he misses all year.

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01-23-2013, 12:40 PM
  #256
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Thank god PG is no longer GM. PK would have already been traded for Lecavalier... Chelios-Savard, anyone?
When did Gauthier trade a young player for a veteran? If anything he did the opposite with Gill Cammalleri AK O'byrne Halak etc

Gainey wanted Lecavalier the year they made the Gomez deal.

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01-23-2013, 12:45 PM
  #257
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When did Gauthier trade a young player for a veteran? If anything he did the opposite with Gill Cammalleri AK O'byrne Halak etc

Gainey wanted Lecavalier the year they made the Gomez deal.
Fine. Just replace PG with Peanut and you get the point. We can't win in a trade scenario unless we get Patrick Kane in return but that's not going to happen. No other player we could get would have the same impact in terms of play on the ice, merchandise sales, general fan interest for Habs games imo.

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01-23-2013, 12:45 PM
  #258
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Amen,
Everyone forgets just how good Markov is. Markov is so important to this team it is ridiculous. I just did a quite calculation and Markov has played 75 game in the past 4 years (including playoffs).

The Habs have a 0.629 winning percentage with him in the lineup (39-23-13) and a 0.500 winning percentage with him out of the lineup (76-76-21).

Now this doesn't factor in the quality of the overall team but I think it is a good starting point for people to hopefully realize how important he is to this team and would be to other teams in trade.

He is basically a poor man's Lidstrom, and I think we can already see the effect on the Wings by not having Lidstrom in the lineup.


Last night was a terrific example of what Markov is capable of in both senses.

He absolutely dominated on the PP, just like he used too. Which is the reason for that huge difference in record, Markov's presense tended to turn the PP into world beaters rather than being average to below average.

On even strength though, he was very good. But not brilliant. He matched against the opposition's best line, But Weiss-Fleichmann-Kopecky is a fairly weak first unit. If they were facing a strong ES team that's a 2nd line. Markov shut them down but he didn't dominate. +1 for ES scoring chances on the night for Markov.

This was exactly what Markov was in his prime. The best PP QB in the game but only very good and not great on ES.

That's why the Habs need PK in the lineup with Markov. Because he has a terrific ES game. Having the two of them is the basis for a strong top 4, one that plays great in every game state.

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01-23-2013, 12:46 PM
  #259
Erik Estrada
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Originally Posted by bigtimehockeyfan999 View Post
What do you think the value of pk subban is? on a sign and trade..what could we get back from..let's say...detroit or philly...or anyone
I think his open market value is very high. Much higher than what is offered from Montreal.

Hockey players are entertainers. Their value's derived from the contribution they make to help a franchise win. Their value also comes from their ability to bring fans in the arena because of who they are as an individual.

PK' ability to bring more fans to the team is limited in saturated markets like Montreal or Toronto. It's huge in smaller markets... In a free open market PK's worth alot more to Anaheim than to Montreal. Meehan knows it. Subban knows it.

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01-23-2013, 12:48 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
Markov has 1 good game in 2 years against a dead beat team and now we are ready to move on and trade PK.

Genius fans living in the past.

Markov is to the Canadiens as to Lidstrom was for the Wings .. really GTFO

Only difference was that Lidstrom was tough as nails and never injured and Markov is fragile and injury prone.

I'll take a team of 20 PK Subban's over 20 Markov's

PK can come close to Markov's greatest assets, but Markov can't come close to PK's greatest assets.
Reading comprehension lacking. I never said that. I said he is a poor man's Lidstrom and gave numbers to back up how important he is to the Habs by looking at the record with him and without him.

I will concede that it is possible that the trend will not continue but don't claim that "genius fans are living in the past" since I am pretty sure you don't have a crystal ball and don't know Markov's impact this season either. I was just giving a comparison. Use any other #1 dman in the league who misses significant time and the team has trouble. Philly without Pronger...whatever comparison you feel is fair, the comparison is not my argument.

That being said, I am not even arguing with your premise. I think Subban is the most important player on the Habs because of his ceiling and his undeniable will to win. He has that something that you just can't teach and he also makes the Habs a boat load of money because he is probably the only marketable player on the Habs. I don't think we should be messing around and we should sign him long term to fair money.

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01-23-2013, 12:50 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by HabsSlappy View Post
Amen,
Everyone forgets just how good Markov is. Markov is so important to this team it is ridiculous. I just did a quite calculation and Markov has played 75 game in the past 4 years (including playoffs).

The Habs have a 0.629 winning percentage with him in the lineup (39-23-13) and a 0.500 winning percentage with him out of the lineup (76-76-21).

Now this doesn't factor in the quality of the overall team but I think it is a good starting point for people to hopefully realize how important he is to this team and would be to other teams in trade.

He is basically a poor man's Lidstrom, and I think we can already see the effect on the Wings by not having Lidstrom in the lineup.
What was the winning percentage of us with Wiznewski vs without him the year we got him? I remember us slowly going into the tank and then we picked this guy up and he basically saved the season.

Markov makes a huge difference to us because we've been so offensively starved. He's a great blueliner no doubt and he gives us enough that we were able to squeak out victories where the margin of difference was a goal. Great PP quarterback (as good as anyone) and we lived and died by it. Comparisons to Lidstrom though are silly. I know the poster was talking about it in the context of "importance" but Lidstrom's name shouldn't be in the same sentence as Markov's. It's kind of like comparing Huet's importance to Ken Dryden's.

As for Subban, I don't think he's where Markov was in his prime, not yet anyway. I'd defintely take him over Markov now though (despite last night's great game) and I think he'll be decisively better in the future. I think what I said was true, PK is our number one right now (please no silly comments about him playing Playstation) and Markov is trying to wrestle the title back from him. Markov might be able to do it, but for now PK holds the belt. Maybe he'll be better than PK, but to be the man he has to beat the man. The onus is on him to prove it.

If we could get both guys healthy and playing well, then we'll have a run for the playoffs. Big 'IF' though and I don't think we should count on Markov for anything. If he comes back strong it's a bonus.

And why the hell do I keep hearing 9 mil over three years for Subban? Please tell me this isn't true because it's not smart to lowball a cornerstone player - RFA or not.

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Old
01-23-2013, 12:51 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
So what you're saying is that you didn't use that information to form your own opinion on the matter?

Because that sounds like exactly what you did. Don't blame other people for your lack of capacity for critical thought or examination of evidence.

Take some ownership for the ****** things you say.
Now you are being stupid. I posted an article and people were ripping the contents apart. Seems that you are lacking the capacity to even understand the simplest of things.

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01-23-2013, 12:52 PM
  #263
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in the past, on the ice, PK got into conflicts with Plekanec and others, in the room there was comment about PK by the likes of Gill, Cole, Gionta, Gorges... If you believe that PK is absolutely like by everyone in the room and that nobody feels he's a distraction or some kind of prima donna... you are naive....

does it mean that the guy should not be sign? NO, does it mean that it is not as easy as 1-2-3 to come to an agreement with the guy, not just personnaly, but with everything the situations involve with the Habs, i'm guessing yes
Don't say these things on this board. To some all the above are lies.

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01-23-2013, 12:52 PM
  #264
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If we start talking trade, and since we don't know how this 2013 draft will be like for us, you KNOW that in return for Subban you need a great prospect or young player d-man in return. Our D line isn't as stacked as far as quality as some people thing. A lot of quantity, a lot of maybe future #4-5-6 but #1-2 like Subban? Nobody. Not Tinordi. Closest would be Beaulieu and we're not there yet. So you need a guy like that. Surely a 1st rounder HAS to be in there, a 1st you might estimate to be top 15. Then you start discussing.

Oh and that locker room cancer has to stop. So many guys we're traded in teh past that were cancers and ended up to be not that bad after all so let's stop shall we. I don't want to trade him. But if it comes to that point, we CANNOT make the same mistakes we keep making with guys that were supposed to HAVE to go....Yet, we're already to a point where his value isn't too high because of his demands, and because of the fact that every team knows we might have no choice but to shop him. Unless a major competition happens between quite a few teams.

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01-23-2013, 12:55 PM
  #265
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If we start talking trade, and since we don't know how this 2013 draft will be like for us, you KNOW that in return for Subban you need a great prospect or young player d-man in return. Our D line isn't as stacked as far as quality as some people thing. A lot of quantity, a lot of maybe future #4-5-6 but #1-2 like Subban? Nobody. Not Tinordi. Closest would be Beaulieu and we're not there yet. So you need a guy like that. Surely a 1st rounder HAS to be in there, a 1st you might estimate to be top 15. Then you start discussing.

Oh and that locker room cancer has to stop. So many guys we're traded in teh past that were cancers and ended up to be not that bad after all so let's stop shall we. I don't want to trade him. But if it comes to that point, we CANNOT make the same mistakes we keep making with guys that were supposed to HAVE to go....
It would be incredibly stupid to trade a defensman like Subban over a contract impass...I can't emphasize that enough.

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01-23-2013, 12:55 PM
  #266
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I think his open market value is very high. Much higher than what is offered from Montreal.

Hockey players are entertainers. Their value's derived from the contribution they make to help a franchise win. Their value also comes from their ability to bring fans in the arena because of who they are as an individual.

PK' ability to bring more fans to the team is limited in saturated markets like Montreal or Toronto. It's huge in smaller markets... In a free open market PK's worth alot more to Anaheim than to Montreal. Meehan knows it. Subban knows it.
Hmmmmm, no.

Anyway, I would say his market value at the moment is low (given his contract situation) but on a sign and trade it could fetch a good return. I've been saying for some time that Montreal should look to trade PK as I think he's a bit of a room cancer, this contract negotiation isn't making him look any better, being at the Raps game on saturday and all. I would look at making him some other teams problem and return a piece of similar value, give or take a few years (age).

The problem with that is that should he be traded, Montreal needs a defenceman in return, and for a trading partner, might be a wash. So you're looking at teams that would both agree that 2 young dmen need a change of scenery, and that, in my opinion, is what would put Bergevin in a tight spot shall he explore trading him.

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01-23-2013, 12:56 PM
  #267
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Originally Posted by onebighockeyfan View Post
Don't say these things on this board. To some all the above are lies.
I actually asked him to post proof that Gionta, Cole and Gorges said something negative about PK last year. (And not just a comment after being asked about him).

Nothing so far. So if you can't back up the statements, yeah, they are probably lies, or at the very least conjecture.

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01-23-2013, 12:57 PM
  #268
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I expect things are going to unfold as soon as we hit a losing streak. Looking at the calendar, it could happen as early as this weekend. Caps are going to bounce back at home, we always lose to NJ (and Brodeur is hot), Jets could surprise and then we're in Ottawa.

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01-23-2013, 01:02 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by TheGoalJudge View Post
Everyone please realize that even if you criticize someone it's still possible to like that person.

It's hilarious when a Hab says something about Subban. It's either: he likes him or he hates him. Subban is either liked or disliked.

For example, maybe Gorges doesn't like that he's not training with the team but maybe Gorges still likes PK's personality, energy, style in the lockerroom. But maybe he just dislikes that one aspect of what PK's doing.

Even if PK is the cockiest MFer in the world, it still wouldn't make him a "lockerroom cancer". You have to be more than cocky to be a cancer. It takes way more than that.

And everyone on the team doesn't have to be friends either. Maybe some guys don't really care for PK's style. But that doesn't mean they hope Chara breaks his neck one night. They probably just go about their business. I really really can't see PK being a guy that people will HATE.

I mean, honestly, he would be the last guy I would say is disliked. Would some guys be indifferent? Maybe? Probably? Would they hope he gets traded? Doubt it.
This. Hope most people over here don't expect to be sociologists.

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01-23-2013, 01:03 PM
  #270
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I'll make our situations horribly clear to some people.

Every game we don't have PK signed is a night Bouillon will play 22 minutes. Capice?

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01-23-2013, 01:04 PM
  #271
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Nobody said anything about "immediately signing whatever" I think rather the idea is other NHL players have contracts but PK doesn't yet. Drama..;.
Maybe you didn't, but a few posters did, and at best, this specific poster at best is implying that PK Subban is being unreasonable in contract negotiations, with zero proof to back him up.

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01-23-2013, 01:05 PM
  #272
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Hmmmmm, no.

.
Subban's a commercial bonanza for a small-medium market team. If I'm the New York Islanders or Florida, how much would Subban help the financial health of my team? How much is the visibility he brings to my club worth? 6 M/year? 7M/year? There's only one Subban in the NHL. Del Zotto is a comparable to the on-ice contribution only. Del Zotto will never have a national Gatorade contract or be on the cover of national US magazines? If I'm the owner of a team struggling to pays the bills, I go out of my way to get Subban.

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01-23-2013, 01:10 PM
  #273
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To be honest, it was the poster I was replying to who called him a prima donna (and quoted Bertrand's "article" as proof). This is not the first time this particular poster has gone out of his way to denigrate Subban with no proof. That's why it rustled my jimmies.

However, if he is a prima donna in some fans eyes, for not immediately signing whatever contract was offered, then so be it, but that's not a fair assessment whatsoever.

I wonder if Dallas fans are calling Benn a prima donna right now? (Honest question). I may head to the Stars board to find out.
Man, you have to chill a little. I did call him a prima dona. Merriam-Webster's definition of prima dona is "a vain or undisciplined person who finds it difficult to work under direction or as part of a team". Although Subban in certainly not the worst prima dona in sports, the current situation and some of the past incidents start to fit this definition. I gave some examples which you believe are either mundane, exaggerations or outright lies even though they have been reported by different sources, albeit some more credible than others. I'm not the only one on here who is not so enthoused by PK's boyant personality and prima dona tendencies. That's a personal preference. I'm also not impressed with him missing training camp and the begining of the season and although management is also to blame in all of this, PK has his faults in all this as well.

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01-23-2013, 01:11 PM
  #274
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Originally Posted by onebighockeyfan View Post
Now you are being stupid. I posted an article and people were ripping the contents apart. Seems that you are lacking the capacity to even understand the simplest of things.
Lol, you posted that article in direct support of your opinion that PK was a primadonna, then said you think he "makes some valid points," and then said "listen, PK's annoying, flamboyant..." which was the exact verbiage used by Raymond. So no, you're not just a messenger. You are an accomplice. An accomplice in stupidity.

So, are you going to reevaluate your approach, or no? I'm sure some people support you and what you've said on this board. Those people also probably purchased a slap-chop...

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01-23-2013, 01:13 PM
  #275
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It would be incredibly stupid to trade a defensman like Subban over a contract impass...I can't emphasize that enough.
Yep, and while I'm comfortable saying it won't happen, I guess since I have no inside info I'll have to say it's 'highly unlikely' that PK will be dealt.

PK loves Montreal. Montreal love PK. He's not going anywhere. A deal will get done when a deal gets done. Frustrating to have to wait or it but nothing else we can do.

The team is better with PK, of course. However, we have decent enough depth at D that management can hold out, as long as everyone stays healthy. Markov, Gorges, Emelin, Diaz, Kaberle, Bouillon and Weber.

I personally feel that the only one PK is hurting here is himself. He needs to play. He'll make his money, if not on this contract on his next one.

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