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01-23-2013, 11:32 AM
  #951
Babs
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As a fan I have never done more than claimed he was worth keeping as he has great potential. If you don't that is great. But We are talking about a rookie on a non playoff team that all claim is a joke as opposed to a "shutdown" signifigantly better player on a playoff team. I am asking what makes him not replaceable in your top 4 by a young player?
Because Gardiner and Garrison play much different roles and therefore aren't even comparable, because we are in win now mode and most importantly why would TO even consider trading Gardiner?

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01-23-2013, 11:32 AM
  #952
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wait, +/- determines defensive abilities?

news to me
So +/- has no bearing on defensive abilities? so you would rather have a player who scored 40 pts and was -20 then one who scored 40 and was +30?

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01-23-2013, 11:33 AM
  #953
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So +/- has no bearing on defensive abilities? so you would rather have a player who scored 40 pts and was -20 then one who scored 40 and was +30?
Would make sense if it was a 1 on 1 game

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01-23-2013, 11:34 AM
  #954
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Originally Posted by doorman View Post
As a fan I have never done more than claimed he was worth keeping as he has great potential. If you don't that is great. But We are talking about a rookie on a non playoff team that all claim is a joke as opposed to a "shutdown" signifigantly better player on a playoff team. I am asking what makes him not replaceable in your top 4 by a young player?
We just signed Garrison to a 6 year deal with a NTC after coming off a 17-goal season and several years as a dominant shut-down defenseman. We aren't relegating him to the third pairing for Jake Gardiner, even if his max upside is potentially higher.


I don't see why you care, though. If Gardiner is off the table, why does it matter whether or not we want him?

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01-23-2013, 11:35 AM
  #955
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Originally Posted by gabeliscious View Post
^ i disagree.

you dont like to **** where you eat. why would you want to help a team who you are going to play ~8 times a year and possibly in the playoffs.

i would think divisional trades would be easier because you see the players more often on the other team. i can understand that obviously there are more teams outside of division then in but it seems like most big trades are out of conference entirely never mind division.
For the same obvious reason you chose to trade with any team: because this team made you the best trade offer you could find around the league.

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01-23-2013, 11:37 AM
  #956
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For the same obvious reason you chose to trade with any team: because this team made you the best trade offer you could find around the league.
I agree. The goal is to win, not make other teams lose.

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01-23-2013, 11:38 AM
  #957
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So +/- has no bearing on defensive abilities? so you would rather have a player who scored 40 pts and was -20 then one who scored 40 and was +30?
Who's better defensively Jonny Boychuk +27 last year, or Weber +21?

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01-23-2013, 11:40 AM
  #958
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Originally Posted by Babs View Post
Because Gardiner and Garrison play much different roles and therefore aren't even comparable, because we are in win now mode and most importantly why would TO even consider trading Gardiner?
I am not saying they would or should trade him. But fans claiming Garrison is some defensive game changing stalwart while Gardiner couldn't crack most teams to 4-6 makes me ask why?

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01-23-2013, 11:41 AM
  #959
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Originally Posted by doorman View Post
I am not saying they would or should trade him. But fans claiming Garrison is some defensive game changing stalwart while Gardiner couldn't crack most teams to 4-6 makes me ask why?
No one said that. We said he wouldn't crack OUR(ie one team's) top 4. That is all.

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01-23-2013, 11:42 AM
  #960
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A defensive rock for years? This is his forth season, he is a carreeer +10, I would not say that makes him a defensive rock. i am not saying he sucks, but seriously a defensive rock is Chara or Weber like, not Garrison.
I am in no way saying that he is on the level of Chara or Weber, what I am saying is that he is a very good shutdown defender. +/- doesn't tell half of the story

Quote:
Originally Posted by doorman View Post
So +/- has no bearing on defensive abilities? so you would rather have a player who scored 40 pts and was -20 then one who scored 40 and was +30?
+/- is so dependant on your team, your defensive partner (in this case Campbell) and is not indicitive of someone defensive abilities at all.

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01-23-2013, 11:42 AM
  #961
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I am not saying they would or should trade him. But fans claiming Garrison is some defensive game changing stalwart while Gardiner couldn't crack most teams to 4-6 makes me ask why?
Who said that, I'm only hearing that he couldn't crack Van's top four?

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01-23-2013, 11:44 AM
  #962
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Gardiner wouldn't displace hamuis, edler, beiska or Garrison he might fit in as the 5 or 6 dman. That's not even debatable at this point.

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01-23-2013, 11:44 AM
  #963
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
For the same obvious reason you chose to trade with any team: because this team made you the best trade offer you could find around the league.
You have to consider that trade value lessens trading with a rival, exponentially. The further you can limit the contact with the ex-player, the more value.

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01-23-2013, 11:44 AM
  #964
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Wow, i see that there is zero rational here if anyone just seems to ask a hockey question or for an explanation. i am still not sure how Garrison is amazing but obviously as he now wears a Vancity jersey he is. I never said he was crap and +/- comments are being taking out of contexts. I only cared as I was trying to have a legit hockey discussion, but apperently as a Leaf fan my opinions don't count, point taken

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01-23-2013, 11:47 AM
  #965
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Wow, i see that there is zero rational here if anyone just seems to ask a hockey question or for an explanation. i am still not sure how Garrison is amazing but obviously as he now wears a Vancity jersey he is. I never said he was crap and +/- comments are being taking out of contexts. I only cared as I was trying to have a legit hockey discussion, but apperently as a Leaf fan my opinions don't count, point taken
I dunno. A lot of Panther fans thought he was pretty good too. If Gardiner turns into Garrison, I think the leafs have done very well. Especially if he then signs for 4.6mil for years in his prime.

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01-23-2013, 11:47 AM
  #966
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Originally Posted by live playoff hockey View Post
I am in no way saying that he is on the level of Chara or Weber, what I am saying is that he is a very good shutdown defender. +/- doesn't tell half of the story



+/- is so dependant on your team, your defensive partner (in this case Campbell) and is not indicitive of someone defensive abilities at all.
+/- is definitely not the best way to measure defensive ability, but if you break the stat into goals for and goals against, and then compare both categories to your teams overall you can definitley get a good sense to who it better defensively and who is not.

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01-23-2013, 11:48 AM
  #967
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Originally Posted by Babs View Post
Who's better defensively Jonny Boychuk +27 last year, or Weber +21?
Whoever killed more penalties.

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01-23-2013, 11:49 AM
  #968
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Wings/ Nuck fans: Luongo for Filppula somewhat fair?

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01-23-2013, 11:49 AM
  #969
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doorman View Post
Wow, i see that there is zero rational here if anyone just seems to ask a hockey question or for an explanation. i am still not sure how Garrison is amazing but obviously as he now wears a Vancity jersey he is. I never said he was crap and +/- comments are being taking out of contexts. I only cared as I was trying to have a legit hockey discussion, but apperently as a Leaf fan my opinions don't count, point taken
I agree with you, I'd rather have Gardiner than garrison, purely from potential point of view. He's a stud.

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01-23-2013, 11:51 AM
  #970
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Wings/ Nuck fans: Luongo for Filppula somewhat fair?
Add a decent prospect/pick to help mitigate the risk of him walking and I'd be okay with it.

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01-23-2013, 11:52 AM
  #971
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Wings/ Nuck fans: Luongo for Filppula somewhat fair?
Only if he dyes his hair brown and stops smiling.

He creeps me and the rest of the world out.

But yes, if those two conditions are met, I'd be willing to consider it.
While we couldn't be getting what we want in youth, we'll be getting a dynamic playmaker (and a centerman!).

I wouldn't be happy with this deal, personally, but it is more fair than most proposals.

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01-23-2013, 11:56 AM
  #972
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I know Luongo prefers to go to Florida but saying he does not want to play in the West is a little Ludicrous.. A person does not sign a ten year deal with Vancouver if he thinks that the west is too far away from Florida...

Saying that the Canucks' price would be HUGE if they were to trade him to Edmonton is also hard to believe. If the Oilers have the best offer on the table you take it and make your club better, or you stick with your guy. But by the sounds of things the latter is not an option..

As for acquiring a #2C in replace of Gagner, the Canucks have been trying to do this for a month now, it is not an easy task because more than half the league is currently looking for an upgrade at 2C...

The Oilers depth at Centre might be the worst in the league if they trade Gagner without a replacement coming back...

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01-23-2013, 11:56 AM
  #973
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Add a decent prospect/pick to help mitigate the risk of him walking and I'd be okay with it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by roach9 View Post
Only if he dyes his hair brown and stops smiling.

He creeps me and the rest of the world out.

But yes, if those two conditions are met, I'd be willing to consider it.
While we couldn't be getting what we want in youth, we'll be getting a dynamic playmaker (and a centerman!).

I wouldn't be happy with this deal, personally, but it is more fair than most proposals.
Thanks for the input, gents. I was thinking a decent prospect/mid-pick (3rd?) may be required from Detroit unless Detroit is eating his full salary. If Van eats some of Lu's salary, I'd say it would be worth a pick.

I think the deal could even be bigger between these two trade partners as the Nucks have plenty of D they could deal off for a prospect.

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01-23-2013, 11:58 AM
  #974
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Wings/ Nuck fans: Luongo for Filppula somewhat fair?
A package from both sides around these two I could get behind. We'd need something else coming our way to cover the risk of Flip walking on us, as others have brought up, and I think Detroit would want a top 4 defender if we had one to spare more then, or as much as, anything.

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01-23-2013, 11:58 AM
  #975
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I agree with you, I'd rather have Gardiner than garrison, purely from potential point of view. He's a stud.
This statement reflects the stage of each team, no? VAN is looking to the present and TOR is looking to the future.

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