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P.K. Subban Thread - 5.0 - The "Doughty Money Vs. Lowball Bridge" Edition

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Old
01-23-2013, 12:14 PM
  #276
Captain Saku
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Originally Posted by bigtimehockeyfan999 View Post
What do you think the value of pk subban is? on a sign and trade..what could we get back from..let's say...detroit or philly...or anyone
We cant sfford to trade Subban. Period. He's the only one in our org that have the potential to be a #1 D when Markov retires. Not even Beaulieu or Tinordi have that potential.

Teams that would want to trade for Subban would want to do so to improve their defense, meaning they'd probably trade him for forwards or/and picks which leave us with a huge hole on defense. So to answer your question, Subban's value is high, but if he's to be traded there is no way we would get fair value in return.

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01-23-2013, 12:16 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by Captain Saku View Post
We cant sfford to trade Subban. Period. He's the only one in our org that have the potential to be a #1 D when Markov retires. Not even Beaulieu or Tinordi have that potential.

Teams that would want to trade for Subban would want to do so to improve their defense, meaning they'd probably trade him for forwards or/and picks which leave us with a huge hole on defense. So to answer your question, Subban's value is high, but if he's to be traded there is no way we would get fair value in return.
What do you mean "potential"? He's already a #1 D.

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01-23-2013, 12:17 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
Maybe you didn't, but a few posters did, and at best, this specific poster at best is implying that PK Subban is being unreasonable in contract negotiations, with zero proof to back him up.
I guess you are referring to me. You are right, I have no proof. Nobody does. There's no more proof that PK is being reasonable than there's proof of him being unreasonable. I've been through this 10 times before and there's still a huge number of people on here bashing Habs management for lowballing PK. Strangely enough, you don't have your panties up in a bunch with that.

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Old
01-23-2013, 12:18 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by onebighockeyfan View Post
Man, you have to chill a little. I did call him a prima dona. Merriam-Webster's definition of prima dona is "a vain or undisciplined person who finds it difficult to work under direction or as part of a team". Although Subban in certainly not the worst prima dona in sports, the current situation and some of the past incidents start to fit this definition. I gave some examples which you believe are either mundane, exaggerations or outright lies even though they have been reported by different sources, albeit some more credible than others. I'm not the only one on here who is not so enthoused by PK's boyant personality and prima dona tendencies. That's a personal preference. I'm also not impressed with him missing training camp and the begining of the season and although management is also to blame in all of this, PK has his faults in all this as well.
Why do I need to chill? Because I destroyed Bertrand's conjecture filled argument that PK was a prima donna, and consequently your own assumption?

Until you give factual reasons, and not assumptions, it's nothing but conjecture.

Give me sources that Gionta, Cole and Gorges all talked negatively about PK last year.

Give me reasons that he's a prima donna, and not "he went to a concert with his friends".

Fact is, you are throwing around accusations that have very little basis in reality. Expect to be called out on them.

This is not the first time we try to cannibalize our young, for no valid reason. It's a rather tired and useless experiment that the Montreal media and a vocal minority of fans have gone through before.

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Old
01-23-2013, 12:18 PM
  #280
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Yep, and while I'm comfortable saying it won't happen, I guess since I have no inside info I'll have to say it's 'highly unlikely' that PK will be dealt.

PK loves Montreal. Montreal love PK. He's not going anywhere. A deal will get done when a deal gets done. Frustrating to have to wait or it but nothing else we can do.

The team is better with PK, of course. However, we have decent enough depth at D that management can hold out, as long as everyone stays healthy. Markov, Gorges, Emelin, Diaz, Kaberle, Bouillon and Weber.

I personally feel that the only one PK is hurting here is himself. He needs to play. He'll make his money, if not on this contract on his next one.
Hoping both sides can compromise

PK by agreeing to a bridge contract...and Bergevin by giving a bit more money on the bridge contract (more than the reported 2.75M)

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01-23-2013, 12:21 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
Why do I need to chill? Because I destroyed Bertrand's conjecture filled argument that PK was a prima donna, and consequently your own assumption?

Until you give factual reasons, and not assumptions, it's nothing but conjecture.

Give me sources that Gionta, Cole and Gorges all talked negatively about PK last year.

Give me reasons that he's a prima donna, and not "he went to a concert with his friends".

Fact is, you are throwing around accusations that have very little basis in reality. Expect to be called out on them.
You are quite a piece of work.

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01-23-2013, 12:26 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Hoping both sides can compromise

PK by agreeing to a bridge contract...and Bergevin by giving a bit more money on the bridge contract (more than the reported 2.75M)
I agree. I said from the beginning that a 2 year 7-8 million bridge contact should get him back on the ice. If that offer is not on the table, management is not doing a good job. If it is, then PK's is wrong not to accept it.

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01-23-2013, 12:27 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by onebighockeyfan View Post
You are quite a piece of work.
Great Ad hominem.

But you are ignoring that you put forth a ton of conjecture and assumptions.

I suppose when one's argument is so full of holes, relying on ad hominem's is necessary.

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01-23-2013, 12:28 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
I actually asked him to post proof that Gionta, Cole and Gorges said something negative about PK last year. (And not just a comment after being asked about him).

Nothing so far. So if you can't back up the statements, yeah, they are probably lies, or at the very least conjecture.
Obviously, no player will come out with a clear statement against PK. You just don't do that in team sports, and especially in Montreal! We're not watching some reality show here.

I think it's very legitimate that some posters come to the conclusion that PK might not be really liked in the dressing room by some of his teammates. There are enough incidents and allusions to believe that it's a possibility. Clearly not the absolute proof you ask for, but enough to suggest that it might be something we have to take into consideration when talking about his contract.

Still, that doesn't mean they, and that's also my point of view, want PK out or dislike him. It means that it might be risky to give him a long term contract and that it could explain why the negotiations are complex.

Obviously, it's possible that it has nothing to do with it and that it's just about the money. But there is no evidence of that neither. With all respect, until you can prove it's only money related, I don't see why you refuse to take into consideration other hypothesis.

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01-23-2013, 12:29 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by onebighockeyfan View Post
I agree. I said from the beginning that a 2 year 7-8 million bridge contact should get him back on the ice. If that offer is not on the table, management is not doing a good job. If it is, then PK's is wrong not to accept it.
That's the way to go.

But if he is really a head case, then trade him. I am sure Bergevin can get a very good return for him.

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01-23-2013, 12:29 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Last night was a terrific example of what Markov is capable of in both senses.

He absolutely dominated on the PP, just like he used too. Which is the reason for that huge difference in record, Markov's presense tended to turn the PP into world beaters rather than being average to below average.

On even strength though, he was very good. But not brilliant. He matched against the opposition's best line, But Weiss-Fleichmann-Kopecky is a fairly weak first unit. If they were facing a strong ES team that's a 2nd line. Markov shut them down but he didn't dominate. +1 for ES scoring chances on the night for Markov.

This was exactly what Markov was in his prime. The best PP QB in the game but only very good and not great on ES.


That's why the Habs need PK in the lineup with Markov. Because he has a terrific ES game. Having the two of them is the basis for a strong top 4, one that plays great in every game state.
Actually, Markov was among the best Dmen at ES (game average, top 10) the last season he played at least more than half of the games, under Jacques Martin in 09-10.

He was also among the top dmen at ES in 05-06.

All the while playing with weaker players than other more recognized dmen. Markov never played with a bonafide elite forward, let alone more than one like some of the other dmen he could be compared too.

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Old
01-23-2013, 12:30 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by IWalkThroughWalls View Post
Obviously, no player will come out with a clear statement against PK. You just don't do that in team sports, and especially in Montreal! We're not watching some reality show here.

I think it's very legitimate that some posters come to the conclusion that PK might not be really liked in the dressing room by some of his teammates. There are enough incidents and allusions to believe that it's a possibility. Clearly not the absolute proof you ask for, but enough to suggest that it might be something we have to take into consideration when talking about his contract.

Still, that doesn't mean they, and that's also my point of view, want PK out or dislike him. It means that it might be risky to give him a long term contract and that it could explain why the negotiations are complex.

Obviously, it's possible that it has nothing to do with it and that it's just about the money. But there is no evidence of that neither. With all respect, until you can prove it's only money related, I don't see why you refuse to take into consideration other hypothesis.
The basis of the argument is that he was called out by his teammates, and that makes him a prima donna . I think we can all agree that what Bertrand wrote about him (going to concerts) is pure stupidity, and doesn't make him a prima donna.

If he was called out in a negative fashion by his teammates, we would probably have heard about it. Those using this "source" to denigrate him should probably back it up.

I never said he is liked by all, or not. I never said this was all about the money. I can't assume those type of things, since I am not in the locker room. The burden of proof is on the people who posted the assumptions as fact.

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Old
01-23-2013, 12:31 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by IWalkThroughWalls View Post
Obviously, no player will come out with a clear statement against PK. You just don't do that in team sports, and especially in Montreal! We're not watching some reality show here.

I think it's very legitimate that some posters come to the conclusion that PK might not be really liked in the dressing room by some of his teammates. There are enough incidents and allusions to believe that it's a possibility. Clearly not the absolute proof you ask for, but enough to suggest that it might be something we have to take into consideration when talking about his contract.

Still, that doesn't mean they, and that's also my point of view, want PK out or dislike him. It means that it might be risky to give him a long term contract and that it could explain why the negotiations are complex.

Obviously, it's possible that it has nothing to do with it and that it's just about the money. But there is no evidence of that neither. With all respect, until you can prove it's only money related, I don't see why you refuse to take into consideration other hypothesis.
Beegevin is offering a short term contract not because he is worried about Subban's behaviour. It is to respect th business structure of his team.

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Old
01-23-2013, 12:33 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
If he was called out in a negative fashion by his teammates, we would know about it.
Not so sure about that. I obviously can't speak for any of the players, but if I feel the need to call a co-worker out, I'm going to do it behind closed doors, I would't go public. It's a question of respect.

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Old
01-23-2013, 12:34 PM
  #290
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Sure it's easy, but it's not easy to be EFFECTIVE, and despite whatever garbage you want to spit out, he was effective.

Also, if you read advanced statistic, you'd realize the hype in PK's case is warranted.
A lot of players are overhyped, sometimes in the wrong, sometimes they prove us right.
Price was overhyped, and he's arguably overpaid, but he's still a great player. Same can be said of PK. Even if you want to say he's overhyped, doesn't mean he's worth half of Prust's salary or isn't great.


As for OEL, I really don't know what you're talking about. Your evaluation is so off. Then again, can't say I'm surprised after the way you speak of PK.
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
his "simply not that good" teammates where good enough for a run to the EC finals 3 seasons ago, and taking the cup winners to 7 games 2 years ago.

Panthers as a group played above expectations last year, but I wouldn't go nominating that group of dmen as an elite force.

your comments on OEL sum your understanding of hockey up nicely, no need to go any further.

Both of your comments sum up your knowledge of hockey.

Neither of you watch OEL.. you just go by popular opinion.

The Panthers took the cup finalists to 7 games last year too.. it means nothing.

and for you Millertime.. FLA overachieved? MTL's run to the conference final was the definition of overachieving.


Obviously Montreal agrees with me.. or they would be playing Subban right now.

I think an offer of 2 years 3.25 per would be very generous.


Last edited by cjbhab: 01-23-2013 at 12:42 PM.
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Old
01-23-2013, 12:34 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by Strik_IX View Post
Not so sure about that. I obviously can't speak for any of the players, but if I feel the need to call a co-worker out, I'm going to do it behind closed doors, I would't go public. It's a question of respect.
Perfect (and absolutely logical)

If that's the case (and it most likely is, IF it happened), how do people know about it then, and why are they using it as a source to denigrate PK?

Funny how that works.

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01-23-2013, 12:37 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by Strik_IX View Post
Not so sure about that. I obviously can't speak for any of the players, but if I feel the need to call a co-worker out, I'm going to do it behind closed doors, I would't go public. It's a question of respect.
The way the press in MTL is fixated to that team, we know everything down to the consistency and colour of each player's bowel movements.

We'd know if there was any ill feelings.

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01-23-2013, 12:37 PM
  #293
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
Perfect (and absolutely logical)

If that's the case (and it most likely is, IF it happened), how do people know about it then, and why are they using it as a source to denigrate PK?

Funny how that works.
It's all BS, "journalists" need to eat right?

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01-23-2013, 12:37 PM
  #294
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PK really need some blingz blingz, so Bergy wake up. Our superstar need moneyz!

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01-23-2013, 12:40 PM
  #295
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
Perfect (and absolutely logical)

If that's the case (and it most likely is, IF it happened), how do people know about it then, and why are they using it as a source to denigrate PK?

Funny how that works.
hey now...PK was seen out in public just this week....darn him! He's selfish!

What? He was skating, coaching and donating to underpriveledged youth? awwww...


this whole thing is a gong show....I'll go watch some hockey to escape.

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01-23-2013, 12:47 PM
  #296
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I'll be happy when this is over so the crappy Subban trade offers will finally stop here on HF.

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Old
01-23-2013, 12:59 PM
  #297
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I truly believe Bergevin when he said he wasn't gonna trade Subban. Unless it's a offer that he can't refuse, Subban isn't going anywhere.

3 years - 12M (3.5M-4.0M-4.5M) would be a decent offer. If after the 3 years Subban plays well, we can ask for 7M/year for all I care. Just get something done!!!!!!

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01-23-2013, 01:19 PM
  #298
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Actually, Markov was among the best Dmen at ES (game average, top 10) the last season he played at least more than half of the games, under Jacques Martin in 09-10.

He was also among the top dmen at ES in 05-06.

All the while playing with weaker players than other more recognized dmen. Markov never played with a bonafide elite forward, let alone more than one like some of the other dmen he could be compared too.
At scoring points on ES he was one of the best.

At controlling the game not nearly so much. Markov's goals and shots against was pretty bad for a supposed top Dman who was getting good goaltending support. You can attribute a bunch of that to Komisarek being bad at hockey, but still, Markov was never very successful as a top shutdown defenseman.

Which isn't to say he was doing badly, he was carrying a pairing under some difficult circumstances, but he wasn't up for doing what the really brilliant two-way ES defenders do. Even without great forwards a great ES defenseman easily stands out for what he's doing with his minutes in a way Markov didn't, like Pietroangelo in St. Louis or OEL in Phoenix. Markov is more like a better version of Yandle.

This is probably why when Martin had him for half a season he preferred to keep Hamrlik as the shutdown guy and played Markov for offense.

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01-23-2013, 01:20 PM
  #299
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Originally Posted by Erik Estrada View Post
Subban's a commercial bonanza for a small-medium market team. If I'm the New York Islanders or Florida, how much would Subban help the financial health of my team? How much is the visibility he brings to my club worth? 6 M/year? 7M/year? There's only one Subban in the NHL. Del Zotto is a comparable to the on-ice contribution only. Del Zotto will never have a national Gatorade contract or be on the cover of national US magazines? If I'm the owner of a team struggling to pays the bills, I go out of my way to get Subban.
No disrespect, but the MTL fan base gets excited when Bourque crosses the blue line. Doesn't mean every fan base is the same. That aside, your argument makes no sense at all. You talk as if Subban is some sort of David Beckham, or even Sidney Crosby. You realize this is a Dman who has yet to score 40 pts, is so far a career +2 player, etc. Just cause Montreal is excited about him, doesn't mean everybody is, and I doubt the local star power he has holds any sort of water in contract negotiations. In fact, I'm pretty certain.

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01-23-2013, 01:30 PM
  #300
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Originally Posted by Jerk Store View Post
No disrespect, but the MTL fan base gets excited when Bourque crosses the blue line. Doesn't mean every fan base is the same. That aside, your argument makes no sense at all. You talk as if Subban is some sort of David Beckham, or even Sidney Crosby. You realize this is a Dman who has yet to score 40 pts, is so far a career +2 player, etc. Just cause Montreal is excited about him, doesn't mean everybody is, and I doubt the local star power he has holds any sort of water in contract negotiations. In fact, I'm pretty certain.
OMG, you'll get ripped for this...

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