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Ron Wilson fired from assitant coach in Hamilton.

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Old
01-23-2013, 09:12 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
So let's assume subban is asking for 7 mil a year and 7 years. It's bergevin's fault? It's all nice to say what should get done but this isn't laziness or whatever. He gave Prust more than he should. Subban's term may just be past the point of necessity.

Well see what happens in Hamilton. I'm not liking it either but well see what happens. Hamilton made changes, well see if it works.
Let's be real here, if he didn't offer that much money, Prust would never have chosen Montreal.

The question is not whether Prust is overpaid or not, it's whether we needed a player like Prust in our team or no. If the answer is no, than it was a bad move. If the answer is yes, than it was a good move.

As for Hamilton, well, clearly something's fishy there and I don't like the fact that our prospects are stuck in this mess.

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01-23-2013, 09:30 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Bergevin is still in his honeymoon phase, where people are willing to forgive his failures:

- No trades to improve the team thus far
What?

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Old
01-23-2013, 12:30 PM
  #53
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You're hopelessly confused.

My criticisms have nothing to do with the first game of the season. My analysis is based on Bergevin's decision-making, not on some statistical fluctuation of whether or not the team goes on a hot or cold streak in the first 10 games, something that could happen and does often happen under any GM.
And I'm the one confused....Yet, you are the one calling it FAILURES instead of calling it THINGS YOU DON'T AGREE WITH. 'Cause while english isn't my first language, I really thought that once you use failures, it had to mean that it had to be PROVEN that it actually was.

You have no idea what's going on with Subban. No idea. Me neither. We do go and try to pretend like we do, and that's fine, that's what a board is also for. But if Subban signs today....and it permits the Habs the same some major money...how will it still consider a failure by you? Trades...how about giving the guy a little more time than 1 week to try to see what his team is made of? Geez, you're analysing a guy's work as if he'd be with us for the past 5 years. You're going on and give us a reading on Bergevin's work, a guy who was hired last summer? Hired his friends...again...who don't? People will totally hire guys they don't know about? In every sport on every team? Hey, Bergevin kept Carrière who he didn't know too much about. Kudos to him. The rest may be his friends, yet they also seem to competent like Dudley. Also pretty sure that neither Brisebois or Pierre Allard or Groulx were his friends were they? They do have a job with us. Therrien...well he wasn't the choice of most of us but as brillant as we are, nothing was proven that he was a failure. Not our pick? For sure. Not mine either. And Hamilton, well that's my biggest criticism and it started by not adding proper vets in due time to make that team a better one. But we are clearly in a season where most of our guys are rookies and it was going to be a tough year. We will see about the coaches, thought the Lefebvre hiring made sense, we will see in due time.

So things we agree with, things we might not agree with sure....but NOBODY has to FORGIVE HIS FAILURES as if it hasn't been proven yet that they were just that....failures. And I'm the one confused....Glad to be if it means not living in the same reality world....

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01-23-2013, 01:39 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
From NHL coach to fired AHL assistant
You do realize it's not Ron Wilson the ex Leaf, right?

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01-23-2013, 01:49 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Bergevin is still in his honeymoon phase, where people are willing to forgive his failures:

- Subban contract situation
- Prust + Moen contracts
- Thought Shane Doan would be the answer
- No trades to improve the team thus far
- Hired his friends specifically for nearly all positions
- The circus in Hamilton
- Therrien
Because we can declare that his decisions were failures... 2 games into a shorten season... After a season where the team finished at the bottom of the eastern conference.












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01-23-2013, 03:09 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by UCantHandleMyRiddum View Post
Because we can declare that his decisions were failures... 2 games into a shorten season... After a season where the team finished at the bottom of the eastern conference.











My favorite was the 3rd one. We can now condemn someone for a thought. He didn't even have to do anything. Just thinking it was too much.

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01-23-2013, 03:12 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Bergevin is still in his honeymoon phase, where people are willing to forgive his failures:

- Subban contract situation
- Prust + Moen contracts
- Thought Shane Doan would be the answer
- No trades to improve the team thus far
- Hired his friends specifically for nearly all positions
- The circus in Hamilton
- Therrien
Sometimes I even wonder if you really believe the stuff you post is grounded in reality, or if you just say things for the hell of it.

Just to cherrypick one, you're calling Therrien a failure after 2 games. You realize how that makes you look, right?

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01-23-2013, 03:36 PM
  #58
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Let's be real here, if he didn't offer that much money, Prust would never have chosen Montreal.

The question is not whether Prust is overpaid or not, it's whether we needed a player like Prust in our team or no. If the answer is no, than it was a bad move. If the answer is yes, than it was a good move.

As for Hamilton, well, clearly something's fishy there and I don't like the fact that our prospects are stuck in this mess.
Absolutely. I agree 100%. Of course, there is limitations to that. If we need a guy like prust and pay him 5 mil, it is not a good move, even if we needed him.

Maybe our prospects are responsible. Who knows. I felt they should've got a veteran scorer to help the attack. A Locke or Aucoin type of guy.

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01-23-2013, 03:45 PM
  #59
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You realize how that makes you look, right?
Fat?

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01-23-2013, 04:00 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Teztify View Post
The Subban contract situation is all on Bergevin? News to me. Most organizations in this league want a short deal after the entry level, that's how it works. Players prove they can continue at a high level, and then they cash in. This situation would have been identical under any of our past GMs, or we would have overpaid him by now.

Prust and Moen? Prust fills an urgent need, and Moen has served admirably with the Habs so far. I don't see how their contracts are exactly a negative. Both are heart and soul players that we need more of.

No trades to improve the team a couple of months into his job, and there was a lockout for half of it! Oh no!

Hired his friends, like Rick Dudley who was widely praised as a great hiring? Or maybe Patrice Brisebois, who if you watch Road to the Memorial Cup on Sportsnet, you'd see he has actually been doing a very good job of meeting up with our prospects at their practices and helping them out.

What exactly has Therrien done so far that's so bad, either? We lost a one goal game to a team that was better than ours last season, and should be this season too. He's demanded a lot out of our young players, like we see with Eller tonight. He's holding every player accountable. Where is the issue with him one game into the season?

Good god you people love to overreact.
Thank you for this. You saved me lots of time.

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01-23-2013, 04:25 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
Sometimes I even wonder if you really believe the stuff you post is grounded in reality, or if you just say things for the hell of it.
OK fine,

Giving 4 year contracts at somewhat inflated prices to both Prust and Moen is a great idea.
Playing hardball with Subban and offering 2 years @ 2.75 million per is a great idea.
The Stortini/Hagel infatuation in Hamilton is a great idea.

"My criticism was not grounded in reality." - lol :-)

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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
Just to cherrypick one, you're calling Therrien a failure after 2 games. You realize how that makes you look, right?
I'm obviously not calling him a failure due to the first 1 or 2 games

Think please. The criticism is *obviously* (if your IQ is above 85) due to Therrien's past performances, not due to the Habs play in the first games.

Like I said above, we should not evaluate Therrien based on thje first 5 or 10 games, that could be due to a hot or cold streak, something that happens to every team under every coach. Right now all we have to evaluate are his past performances.

Honestly, I'm shocked I need to explain the above point to you, I would have guessed you could infer it on your own. Here, I'll state it again without explanation: 1, 2, or 5 games is not enough to evaluate Therrien's current performance. Only his past performances can be evaluated.


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01-23-2013, 04:35 PM
  #62
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And I'm the one confused....Yet, you are the one calling it FAILURES instead of calling it THINGS YOU DON'T AGREE WITH.
This is an opinion board.

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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
And I'm the one confused....Yet, you are the one calling it FAILURES instead of calling it THINGS YOU DON'T AGREE WITH. 'Cause while english isn't my first language, I really thought that once you use failures, it had to mean that it had to be PROVEN that it actually was.

You have no idea what's going on with Subban. No idea. Me neither. We do go and try to pretend like we do, and that's fine, that's what a board is also for. But if Subban signs today....and it permits the Habs the same some major money...how will it still consider a failure by you?
Obviously, if Bergevin redeems himself by either signing Subban to a great contract, or winning a trade involving Subban, then my criticism retracts and will be replaced by praise.

However, right now, what we do know with reasonable confidence is that he offered a 2-year contract @ 2.75 million per, maybe 3.25 million per, which is an insult to our no. 1 (maybe no. 2 !) dman. We also know that it's very hard to win a trade when you try to get rid of a player. If we do win a trade, I'll gladly eat crow, but I'm skeptical.

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So things we agree with, things we might not agree with sure....but NOBODY has to FORGIVE HIS FAILURES as if it hasn't been proven yet that they were just that....failures. And I'm the one confused....Glad to be if it means not living in the same reality world....
Give him as much of a chance as you want. If you want to give him the benefit of the doubt, and you're not willing to be critical of decisions that seem flawed early on, that's fine. At some point however, Bergevin's decisions will have to show results.

I don't think we should have to wait five years or whatever to evaluate a GM.


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01-23-2013, 04:48 PM
  #63
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OK fine,

Giving 4 year contracts at somewhat inflated prices to both Prust and Moen is a great idea.
Playing hardball with Subban and offering 2 years @ 2.75 million per is a great idea.
The Stortini/Hagel infatuation in Hamilton is a great idea.

"My criticism was not grounded in reality." - lol :-)


I'm obviously not calling him a failure due to the first 1 or 2 games

Think please. The criticism is *obviously* (if your IQ is above 85) due to Therrien's past performances, not due to the Habs play in the first games.
Prust's contract is inflated, Moen's is not. He gets 1.8 mil. I mean, Jordin tootoo gets 1.9. Joel Ward gets 3.0. I really don't see the problem with Moen's contract at all, it's fair value. He got 1.5 before and proved his worth.

Okay, so you read the article about subban being offered 2 years at 2.75 but did not bother reading the follow up which said it was false? Even then, what did Del zotto and Kulikov get? They got less. I like Subban more but just saying, comparables got less. Still, the rumour was announced false.

You should really do your research before you use arguments to call other people wrong.

Some of the things you said, I have no idea how you'd justify. Bergevin kicked tires on Doan=bad GM. "No trades to improve team thus far". Yah, it's called a lockout and lack of CBA. You wrote in the lockout thread endlessly so I know you about it, did you forget you can't sign or trade during it? Was he supposed to come out guns blazing this week and make trades? Besides that, you go onto "Hiring friends". Who would you have hired as assistant GM? Was there some superstar candidate with a lot of experience? Dudley is fine, Mellanby is fine and so on. All have NHL experience and coaching or management experience, are you really bashing this? How about adding scouts, is that a bad move too?

So yes, I do too wonder if you just talk for the hell of it. Don't get me wrong, I know you're a smart guy but that doesn't mean you can't be wrong. In this case, I have a feeling you'll cling to this until something goes wrong then pull out the "I told you so" card.

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01-23-2013, 06:12 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Prust's contract is inflated, Moen's is not. He gets 1.8 mil. I mean, Jordin tootoo gets 1.9. Joel Ward gets 3.0. I really don't see the problem with Moen's contract at all, it's fair value. He got 1.5 before and proved his worth.
And Chris Neil gets 2.0 if I recall correctly.

My own view is that both the contracts are worth it, I'm however unconvinced it's worth it to have both. We now have three middleweights on this team: Moen, Prust, White.

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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Okay, so you read the article about subban being offered 2 years at 2.75 but did not bother reading the follow up which said it was false? Even then, what did Del zotto and Kulikov get? They got less. I like Subban more but just saying, comparables got less. Still, the rumour was announced false.
Those guys are not good comparables, as there are two ends of the ice in a hockey rink.

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Some of the things you said, I have no idea how you'd justify. Bergevin kicked tires on Doan=bad GM. "No trades to improve team thus far". Yah, it's called a lockout and lack of CBA. You wrote in the lockout thread endlessly so I know you about it, did you forget you can't sign or trade during it?
Shane Doan was not what this team needs. All indications are that MB disagreed with that, however, Doan didn't want to come here. All we have left is an insight into MB's perspectives: he thought adding Doan would be a good move for the team.

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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
So yes, I do too wonder if you just talk for the hell of it. Don't get me wrong, I know you're a smart guy but that doesn't mean you can't be wrong. In this case, I have a feeling you'll cling to this until something goes wrong then pull out the "I told you so" card.
If I'm wrong I'm wrong and it will be obvious.

For example I was wrong about the league and the players not wanting a lockout. I thought it would be much shorter.

If the Habs make the conference finals ++, or if Subban is traded for an outstanding package, or id Desharnais becomes an 85 point player we can build the team around, if Rene Bourque bounces back then I'll be wrong, then those are other ways in which I can be wrong. I don't mind being wrong lol.

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01-23-2013, 06:39 PM
  #65
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Give him as much of a chance as you want. If you want to give him the benefit of the doubt, and you're not willing to be critical of decisions that seem flawed early on, that's fine. At some point however, Bergevin's decisions will have to show results.

I don't think we should have to wait five years or whatever to evaluate a GM.
If you read my post properly and if you read my opinion on how Hamilton was build this year, you'd know I didn't agree with some of the decisions. If you read my opinion on Subban, you'd know that I totally DON'T agree with a bridge contract IF that's what going on. But I won't be calling him a failure based on some things I don't agree with. I will wait till I have a bigger picture of the guy's work to then evaluate if there were more pros and cons to his work.

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01-24-2013, 05:28 PM
  #66
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And Chris Neil gets 2.0 if I recall correctly.

My own view is that both the contracts are worth it, I'm however unconvinced it's worth it to have both. We now have three middleweights on this team: Moen, Prust, White..
White is paid peanuts anyway. So Neil is a heavyweight, we can agree to that. Yet, prust and moen have no issue fighting him, sounds good.


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Those guys are not good comparables, as there are two ends of the ice in a hockey rink.
Bias a bit? Kulikov is plays both ends. Maybe for del zotto but niot kulikov. What's interesting however is Del zotto plays offense better. So there's a give and take here. Most would admit subban deserves more but he's not better at EVERY facet of the game than del zotto to deserve double on a no arbitration RFA contract.


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Shane Doan was not what this team needs. All indications are that MB disagreed with that, however, Doan didn't want to come here. All we have left is an insight into MB's perspectives: he thought adding Doan would be a good move for the team.
"all indications"? So MB signed him? MB even said he didnt even get a chance to talk to doan in montreal. How far fetched is this? besides, doan is a fine player at the right price.

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If I'm wrong I'm wrong and it will be obvious.

For example I was wrong about the league and the players not wanting a lockout. I thought it would be much shorter.

If the Habs make the conference finals ++, or if Subban is traded for an outstanding package, or id Desharnais becomes an 85 point player we can build the team around, if Rene Bourque bounces back then I'll be wrong, then those are other ways in which I can be wrong. I don't mind being wrong lol.
Show me 3 posters who said DD would be an 85 point player. You're making this up. I can think of 1 off top of my head and i'll give you another just incase, but who are you proving wrong? 2 people? This is nonsensical, you made a thread to disprove a couple people as if it's common understanding DD will be a superstar and you're fighting it. As a big DD fan, i'm happy with him making 60 points.

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01-24-2013, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post

Show me 3 posters who said DD would be an 85 point player. You're making this up. I can think of 1 off top of my head and i'll give you another just incase, but who are you proving wrong? 2 people? This is nonsensical, you made a thread to disprove a couple people as if it's common understanding DD will be a superstar and you're fighting it. As a big DD fan, i'm happy with him making 60 points.
You misunderstood me.

I've been arguing that the team can't be built around DD and be successful. That's what I said.

I'll be proven wrong if he becomes an 85 point player. Maybe the margin is 80 points or 90 points given his role, I'm not sure.

If he becomes an 85 point player, then it is worth it to give him easy minutes, the best linemates, 3 minutes a game of PP time, and tons of ozone starts, at the expense of the rest of the lineup. At 60 points, he is not worth all those advantages.

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01-24-2013, 05:46 PM
  #68
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On the Journal de Montréal today Lefrevre said that he wanted Wilson for his experience in the American Hockey League but realised they were not seeing eye-to-eye on how things should do. Lefrevre mentioned it was more important him to develop players for the NHL than any other things. And he mentioned Gallagher.

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01-24-2013, 05:56 PM
  #69
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You misunderstood me.

I've been arguing that the team can't be built around DD and be successful. That's what I said.

I'll be proven wrong if he becomes an 85 point player. Maybe the margin is 80 points or 90 points given his role, I'm not sure.

If he becomes an 85 point player, then it is worth it to give him easy minutes, the best linemates, 3 minutes a game of PP time, and tons of ozone starts, at the expense of the rest of the lineup. At 60 points, he is not worth all those advantages.
But who are proving wrong? No one said it.

It's like me arguing Emelin won't make 65 points. It's very accurate but I won't have much opposition, know what I mean?

At 60 points and being a top 2 offensive center on the team, he's worth it considering his modest salary. 850k per year.

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01-24-2013, 05:57 PM
  #70
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Not too sure how putting Leblanc in the 3rd line and Naatinen in the 4th line is good for the development of our promising players.

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01-24-2013, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
You misunderstood me.

I've been arguing that the team can't be built around DD and be successful. That's what I said.

I'll be proven wrong if he becomes an 85 point player. Maybe the margin is 80 points or 90 points given his role, I'm not sure.

If he becomes an 85 point player, then it is worth it to give him easy minutes, the best linemates, 3 minutes a game of PP time, and tons of ozone starts, at the expense of the rest of the lineup. At 60 points, he is not worth all those advantages.
Something to ponder about: there were only 3 players that scored 85 points or more last season.

Might want to revisit your (crazy) expectations.

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01-24-2013, 05:59 PM
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Anglophobic !!!!!!!!

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01-24-2013, 06:12 PM
  #73
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Something to ponder about: there were only 3 players that scored 85 points or more last season.

Might want to revisit your (crazy) expectations.
Right, but not many players are worth building a team around like that.

The Sedin twins get comparable easy minutes to Desharnais, but the Canucks benefit from it as they are 90 point players.

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01-24-2013, 06:42 PM
  #74
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Not too sure how putting Leblanc in the 3rd line and Naatinen in the 4th line is good for the development of our promising players.
I can see the need to ahve AHL vets but your best kids have to play. LeBlanc is a perfect example.

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