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P.K. Subban Thread - 5.0 - The "Doughty Money Vs. Lowball Bridge" Edition

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Old
01-23-2013, 03:12 PM
  #326
SnapVirus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
Out of all the trade proposal I like your framework the best. Not the trade itself but the package of players.

We'd have to get a very good, servicable defenman and a top end forward player. PK alone won't get you that but packaging him with an Eller or a Bourque gets you closer to an acceptable package. We would have to get a "star" back in the trade, whether he be a forward or a defencman.

I'm not proposing we trade PK but if it gets to that point, there may not be a choice and we better get a damn kings randsom in return or I wouldn't even consider it.
I thought when I wrote it down, that Souray was still playing with the Stars.
But I think, if we ever come close to trade him, it'll look something similar to this.

We'd get another Defenceman both nothing compared to Subban's talent. And a strong forward who have a comparable worth on the market (ex. Benn).

And I thought Souray type of d. made sens : Physical and a big shot from the point.
Even if he is old and doesnt have the same value as Subban, he could be able to help us now, and replace a little bit of what Subban's bring.

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01-23-2013, 03:16 PM
  #327
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IF and i stress IF we have to move PK

guys i would be interested in are:

Bobby Ryan
Jamie Benn

However we make a deal, we need to add more & get back either a 1st rounder or a D prospect

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01-23-2013, 03:18 PM
  #328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HomaridII View Post
Dave Stubbs ‏@Dave_Stubbs
Talks of some kind b/w @PKSubban1 agent Don Meehan & #Habs GM Marc Bergevin are expected to take place before week's end
= Bergevin - Hey Don, you ready to get serious on a contract for PK?

Don - Nope

Phone - click, ringtone............

Official press release - Talks are ongoing with Don Meehan.

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01-23-2013, 03:19 PM
  #329
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
Other than Souray not playing for Dallas, it would still leave us with a giant gap on defense in the future.

Basically we would need another defensive thoroughbred back in the deal.
I'd do Subban for Benn straight-up in a heartbeat. We need another Top-6 forward more than a dman right now. Beaulieu, Tinordi, and Ellis are on the farm and the best 2 can can replace Bouillion and Kaberle next season. I haven't given up on Weber either.

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01-23-2013, 03:20 PM
  #330
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian_Brewtality View Post
IF and i stress IF we have to move PK

guys i would be interested in are:

Bobby Ryan
Jamie Benn

However we make a deal, we need to add more & get back either a 1st rounder or a D prospect
After losing Gardner and Schultz, I can see Anaheim as a good trade partner. Maybe work a Getlaf, Perry package deal

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01-23-2013, 03:22 PM
  #331
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
After losing Gardner and Schultz, I can see Anaheim as a good trade partner. Maybe work a Getlaf, Perry package deal
Trading Subban for 2 UFAs would be worse than the Gomez trade.

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01-23-2013, 03:26 PM
  #332
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Originally Posted by SeriousHabs View Post
Trading Subban for 2 UFAs would be worse than the Gomez trade.
Well I'd assume the Habs would talk to them before the trade about their contracts so we sign them once the trade is complete.

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01-23-2013, 03:31 PM
  #333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 24Cups View Post
I'd do Subban for Benn straight-up in a heartbeat. We need another Top-6 forward more than a dman right now. Beaulieu, Tinordi, and Ellis are on the farm and the best 2 can can replace Bouillion and Kaberle next season. I haven't given up on Weber either.
We'd have to throw in more with Subban to get Benn, IMO.

I'd do it though. Benn's younger (marginally) is big and strong, can score and dish the puck. He's going to be a phenomenal player.

Subban's special as well, but Benn's proven more at this stage.

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01-23-2013, 03:34 PM
  #334
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Originally Posted by fufonzo View Post
We'd have to throw in more with Subban to get Benn, IMO.

I'd do it though. Benn's younger (marginally) is big and strong, can score and dish the puck. He's going to be a phenomenal player.

Subban's special as well, but Benn's proven more at this stage.
A D-man like Subban is worthing more than a forward like Benn.

And would Benn accept a bridge contract ?

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01-23-2013, 03:37 PM
  #335
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Originally Posted by Habtchum View Post
A D-man like Subban is worthing more than a forward like Benn.

And would Benn accept a bridge contract ?
I think Benn is in the exact opposite situation as Subban.

Dallas wants long term, Benn wants short term.

Not 100% on that though.

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01-23-2013, 03:38 PM
  #336
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Originally Posted by fufonzo View Post
Benn's younger (marginally) is big and strong, can score and dish the puck. He's going to be a phenomenal player.

Subban's special as well, but Benn's proven more at this stage.
Subban's young, is imposing and strong, can score, dish the puck and hit pretty damn well, and he's very solid on D. He's going to be a phenomenal D...

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Old
01-23-2013, 03:40 PM
  #337
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Any positive news? Can't wait for him to be back.

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01-23-2013, 03:40 PM
  #338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
Other than Souray not playing for Dallas, it would still leave us with a giant gap on defense in the future.

The only logical deal when it comes to Subban, and I doubt he'll get moved, is getting another minute monster back on D. Someone that can play an insane amount of ice time in all facets of the game, and that can do it well.

Basically we would need another defensive thoroughbred back in the deal.
Subban for McDonagh

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01-23-2013, 03:41 PM
  #339
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Originally Posted by fufonzo View Post
We'd have to throw in more with Subban to get Benn, IMO.

I'd do it though. Benn's younger (marginally) is big and strong, can score and dish the puck. He's going to be a phenomenal player.

Subban's special as well, but Benn's proven more at this stage.
The problem with a Suubban for Benn trade is that our organization is much weaker on D than it is at Center, and doing this trade would make the situation more lopsided.

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01-23-2013, 03:47 PM
  #340
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
The problem with a Suubban for Benn trade is that our organization is much weaker on D than it is at Center, and doing this trade would make the situation more lopsided.
That's why the trade would have to be a package deal.

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01-23-2013, 03:49 PM
  #341
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Interesting watching this thread evolve:

- HOW MUCH should PK get?

- HOW LONG should we sign him for?

- HOW FAR APART are PK and management?

- HOW MANY GAMES will PK miss?

- WHO WILL WE GET when PK is traded?

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01-23-2013, 03:54 PM
  #342
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fufonzo View Post
We'd have to throw in more with Subban to get Benn, IMO.

I'd do it though. Benn's younger (marginally) is big and strong, can score and dish the puck. He's going to be a phenomenal player.

Subban's special as well, but Benn's proven more at this stage.
Thank you. I can't believe some of these comments myself...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Habtchum View Post
A D-man like Subban is worthing more than a forward like Benn.

And would Benn accept a bridge contract ?
Again, Benn is a legit top line C. Subban never hit 40 points while being good defensively. Not even close to fair value IMO

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01-23-2013, 03:55 PM
  #343
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by IWalkThroughWalls View Post
Obviously, no player will come out with a clear statement against PK. You just don't do that in team sports, and especially in Montreal! We're not watching some reality show here.

I think it's very legitimate that some posters come to the conclusion that PK might not be really liked in the dressing room by some of his teammates. There are enough incidents and allusions to believe that it's a possibility. Clearly not the absolute proof you ask for, but enough to suggest that it might be something we have to take into consideration when talking about his contract.

Still, that doesn't mean they, and that's also my point of view, want PK out or dislike him. It means that it might be risky to give him a long term contract and that it could explain why the negotiations are complex.

Obviously, it's possible that it has nothing to do with it and that it's just about the money. But there is no evidence of that neither. With all respect, until you can prove it's only money related, I don't see why you refuse to take into consideration other hypothesis.

Let's try to really look at PK, and let's go as far back as his junior years.
So, here's a kid drafted #43 overall, and right from the draft, he appears to be a breath of fresh air. So much enthusiasm, so much charisma, his personality is evident right from his draft interview. To make things better, he's a Habs fan from his childhood.
In his junior years, his progression is remarkable. A very interesting thing is, looking at the POs, he seems to really enjoy and step up during that time of the season.
In his last year there, he makes it to the first all-star team.
During that span, on the International side, in his first presence on team Canada, he makes it as 7th Dman, but still got to play 7games. He earned himself a Gold Medal.
In his 2nd time around, he makes it again but this time has a much more prominent role. He scored 9pts with a +12 rating, earning himself another Gold Medal again.

Reports of PK are nothing but positive. People are starting to recognize PK as a special player that should have definitely went in the first round, if not top 15.

The following year, he is assigned to the AHL. His play is, again, nothing short of amazing. He makes the All rookie Team. In February, he gets called up. The next day, he earns his first NHL point. He is sent back down in the AHL back where he keeps dominating.
At the end of the year, he ends up with 18G 53Pts in 77GP. He earned himself the President's award, given to the AHL player recognized for outstanding accomplishments.

He is called up to join the Habs during the POs. In his first two games, he is given a more limited role, not to be thrown to the wolves right off the bat. Unfortunately, in his 3rd game and Game 1 of the Pens series, Markov gets injured. PK is asked to take on a much bigger role. He starts playing over 20min a game. At the end of it, he finishes as the 2nd Dman for min/gp, despite only playing a little over 10min in his first two games (Remove those two games and he's pretty much tied with Gorges for the most minutes per game). Not only does he get tough match ups for a rookie, and does well, finishing as a +2, but he also gathers 9pts in 14 games.
Needless to say, PK is now the talk of the town. His performance was very impressive for such a young and inexperienced player.

Next season comes around and he makes the NHL. Not surprisingly, there is some NHL adaptation to consider, but still, he is very good. Used as a top 3Dman, by mid December, he becomes a top pairing guy. He also makes the Rookie All-Star team.
He is becoming the Habs best young player little by little. At this point, people are saying PK should have easily been a top 5 pick in his draft year.
Around the league however, he is gaining a reputation of a pest. He talks a lot of trash, and for some people, it's too much to handle. So they criticize away. But PK is not your usual pest. He is also a very good player, so he gets people off their games by his trash talking, and they become so focused on getting back at him that they eventually take penalties because even if they try to catch him off guard, PK is very tough to catch up to thanks to his superb skating, but he is also a very smart player in knowing when a check is coming and how to absorb it well.
Playoffs come around, and again, he is very solid. He is also showing some ''clinch'' skills as he scores in the final two minutes while trailing by a goal in game 7 forcing an OT.

In his sophomore year, he struggles a little more out of the gate. This is Mtl, so when they see one of our coaches (some of the worst coaching I've ever seen btw) is seen giving PK an earful after a turnover leading up to a goal, so thanks to our fabulous media and fanbase, it slowly turns into a ''PK doesn't listen'' idea. To make matters worse (not sure if it was before or after. I believe after.), PK eventually gets scratched. It is a very controversial scratch as PK was the most used Dman. Just the game before the scratch, he was used 23:28. The team responded with a 0-4 loss.
In his first game back, he gets 1g 1a and is used about a minute more than his previous game. Support of the scratch wasn't unanimous. He is a kid that will take risks and you need to live with them because most of the time, you'll be happy he took them.
His game keeps improving, finishes the year with about the same amount of points as his rookie year, facing the toughest opponents, as the #1 Dman of the Habs.


Over his entire career, the kid has never, NEVER, had an off ice issue.
Some question his maturity (I know, I know, a 21-22yo not completely mature yet, it's nut I tell you!), but his commitment to the game is undeniable. His work ethic during practices is so intense that even his teammates get into scuffles. He practices like he plays, intense and trash talking, so some of the guys on the receiving end get pissed off. But, again, this is Mtl where controversy is #1 priority in news reporting, so it's overblown.

The lockout happens with Bergevin unable to re-sign PK. We are told not to worry, and nobody actually does because everyone knows PK is our most promising youngster (Price aside if you still consider him a youngster). Everybody feels PK will be signed once the new CBA is finalized. During the lockout, PK makes no negative comments about it, he simply states that he feels bad for the fans but it's part of the game and hopefully it'll get resolved soon so everybody can get back to hockey.
His off season training is tough as always.

CBA is finally signed, but Bergevin, again, is unable to sign his young star player.
From there, all kinds of rumors are blurred out. From PK wanting close to 56M/8 (doughty contract) to Bergevin offering 5.5M over 2years.

On one hand, we have a player, that's never been controversial, no off ice issue, excellent work ethic and great off ice training, one of the most promising young Dmen of this league, that has never shown a sign of being greedy or selfish (will defend teammates at every opportunity, and be the first to cheer them on for a goal.). Is always competitive and intense.
On the other, we have a brand new GM, a rookie, who's trying to establish a new reputation in the league as a hard negotiator. He wants to set a precedent for future negotiations.

The most recent rumor comes from Bob Mac, arguably the most credible source for stories out there. What is apparently being offered is a 2y 5.5M.
If we look back at how PK has performed, then, no doubt, this is a joke offer.
Yet, some people will prefer to side with a rookie GM. Despite having absolutely no idea of how good he is at evaluating talent and associating a price tag to it.
Meanwhile, PK's undeniably impressive growth of development over the past years, starting from his OHL days, is simply ignored (believing this kid should just take 2.75M for 2years is absolutely ignoring his performance over the years and development, not to mention potential, because if he's worth so little, then 99% of NHL players don't deserve what they are getting).

You can chose to believe Bobby Mac's words or not, but if that's indeed the offer, then Bergevin is seriously trying to make an example out of his young star player. A strategy I deplore. The reason why is that I think GMs need to have visions and sign players at a cheaper price earlier. At the end of the day you have to ask yourself, is there more chances that PK will regress within the next two years and not be worth longer term deal or that his progression will continue as it has and he'll likely be worth more cash in two years. To me, it's obviously the 2nd part, so ink him now, while you can get him for cheaper.

Something that isn't mentioned as well, is that if this ends poorly, and PK is traded only to sign a longer term deal, Bergevin might feel like he's set himself a good reputation as a tough negotiator but other agents will likely view it as ''Don't sign, he'll just trade us and we'll get our well deserved money''.

I could live with a bridge contract, perhaps give a 3rd year, but Bergevin absolutely has to almost double the money. It makes no sense at all to give so little and yet ask so much of a player.


Last edited by Kriss E: 01-23-2013 at 04:28 PM.
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Old
01-23-2013, 03:57 PM
  #344
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Benn's played wing as well though so that's an option (though, considering we've never had a big first line C, I might try to make room for him).
We also have Beaulieu and Ellis with the Dogs that should be able to make the jump next year, and Diaz, Markov are puckmovers capable of compensating somewhat. Tinordi should soon be able to make the jump, albeit in a different role.

I'm not saying that I want to trade Subban for Benn, but if it's at a point where a compromise cannot be made, and they must trade him, I'd be thrilled with getting Benn in return - even if we had to throw in a 2nd.

And, to those saying that Subban is worth more than Benn, I think that outside of Montreal, most would disagree. Benn's a big no1 C who's accomplished more at this point - and in trades, results generally outclass potential, especially when both players are the same age.

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01-23-2013, 04:04 PM
  #345
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Eller and Subban for Faska and Benn

Benn can play C or W and would be a perfect C for Cole and MaxPac that would be one serious power line.

Trade Desharnais - As much as I like him Montreal has too many little guys on this team.

Subban can be replaced in a year or two by Tinordi - Bealieu - Morgan Ellis all three of these kids will play for the habs.

MaxPac Benn Cole
Gionta Plekanec Bourque
Gallagher Galchenyuk Prust
Armstrong White Moen
Nokelainen

Markov Emelin
Gorges Kaberle
Diaz Boullion

Next year the defence graduates Tinordi and maybe one of or both of Beaulieu and Ellis

Markov Emelin
Gorges Diaz
Tinordi Beaulieu
Ellis


Radek Faska is another big C prospect who skates well and has very decent OHL numbers.

Center
Born Jan 9 1994
Height 6.03 -- Weight 202 -- Shoots L

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Old
01-23-2013, 04:04 PM
  #346
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by Jerk Store View Post
Again, Benn is a legit top line C. Subban never hit 40 points while being good defensively. Not even close to fair value IMO
http://www.behindthenet.ca/

Time for you to learn about advance statistics. If you don't, then you shouldn't be evaluating any player.

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01-23-2013, 04:06 PM
  #347
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Hey, no argument. You call him a cornerstone, I call him a support beam, either way he's a huge part of our team's future. But think about it -- Subban has opted to NOT PLAY rather than accept whatever was offered. This is bad. This melodrama underscores just how little we know about what goes on behind the scenes with players, agents and management. Gomez is part of the roster, until the next day when he's fired; Cammalleri's harsh comments were no big deal, until the next day when he's traded mid-period.

We discuss these guys like they're simple game pieces on a Monopoly board, but there's more wheeling and dealing than we will ever know.
I know. Just please don't mention trading him because man... I will lose my mind.

Anyways, interesting to hear Gary Gally talk on the NHL network today. His take is that PK wants too much money. He also mentioned that he's not universally loved in the dressing room... He said if the Habs give into these demands it's going to set a bad precedent and that the Habs shouldn't give in on this.

Whoo boy so there you go... nobody has any idea what's really going on behind the scenes. On the one hand we hear it's a lowball on the other it's PK being greedy.

I read that the two sides are meeting this week so hopefully we can put this behind us.

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01-23-2013, 04:06 PM
  #348
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I think Benn is in the exact opposite situation as Subban.

Dallas wants long term, Benn wants short term.

Not 100% on that though.
Sort of.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/opin...ned-three.html

This is purely a guess, but I think Benn gets done first, maybe because Stars owner Tom Gagliardi sounded optimistic about it last week. Agent Rich Evans is on-record as saying Benn, who is four seasons away from being an unrestricted free agent (UFA), wants three to five years. The Stars have discussed that, but it's believed they prefer an even longer term.

Dave Stubbs ‏@Dave_Stubbs
Agent Don Meehan tells me there's no one in "driver's seat" in @PKSubban1 talks: "This should be in best interests of everyone concerned"

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01-23-2013, 04:11 PM
  #349
Lafleurs Guy
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Subban for McDonagh
That's it! Where's my gun?

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01-23-2013, 04:12 PM
  #350
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Because PK doesn't seem to want to accept a bridge contract, unless he does get traded, Galchenyuk will have to be sent down to Sarnia no matter how well he plays.

No one will trade for Bourque or Kaberle at this point in the season, and there is only 2.75 million left on the cap.

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