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P.K. Subban Thread - 5.0 - The "Doughty Money Vs. Lowball Bridge" Edition

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01-23-2013, 04:13 PM
  #351
Marc the Habs Fan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdecheno View Post
Because PK doesn't seem to want to accept a bridge contract, unless he does get traded, Galchenyuk will have to be sent down to Sarnia no matter how well he plays.

No one will trade for Bourque or Kaberle at this point in the season, and there is only 2.75 million left on the cap.
They can use the bonus cushion to clear cap room.

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Old
01-23-2013, 04:14 PM
  #352
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
http://www.behindthenet.ca/

Time for you to learn about advance statistics. If you don't, then you shouldn't be evaluating any player.
I'll post this on the poll board. Perhaps my judgement is wrong. Advanced statistic or not, for me, I don't see how Subban fetches Benn.

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Old
01-23-2013, 04:17 PM
  #353
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Let's try to really look at PK, and let's go as far back as his junior years.
So, here's a kid drafted #43 overall, and right from the draf...

I could live with a bridge contract, perhaps give a 3rd year, but Bergevin absolutely has to almost double the money. It makes no sense at all to give so little and yet ask so much of a player.
Very good summary, and I can't find fault with any of your conclusions. I don't think that Bergevin is making a good case for his ability as a critical thinker. He seems to have an approach to negotiating that is ideological rather than practical, and I believe that PK's contribution to the team is undervalued.

Moreover, PK's personality, which is influenced by African-American (ok, African-Canadian) culture, was always bound to differ from traditional WASP and Franco-Canadian culture, from which hockey-related cultural norms arose. For a basketball-related parallel, look at how the modern NBA game is played, and compare it to an era when black players were prevented from playing, let's say, the 50's (e.g. Bob Cousy era): not only are the strategies different, but how players relate to each other is also starkly different. Thus, penalizing PK for reflecting a cultural bias that is different from the usual is like trying to view the modern NBA through the prism of a 50's era basketball fan.

As a result, we need to stick to evaluation criteria that matter in terms of the final result, and possibly re-educating both him and some of his teammates, if the need arises, to at least recognize the impact of these differences on team dynamics.

Sorry if this post reads like psycho-babble.

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Old
01-23-2013, 04:18 PM
  #354
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Originally Posted by Jerk Store View Post
I'll post this on the poll board. Perhaps my judgement is wrong. Advanced statistic or not, for me, I don't see how Subban fetches Benn.
I'd say it would be fairly close.

Both are really good young players with a ton of upside, that have proven they can take care of their respective #1 positions.

Depends what the franchise needs most I suppose. In our case, I think we have quantity on D, but not a ton of quality.

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01-23-2013, 04:18 PM
  #355
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Originally Posted by Jerk Store View Post
I'll post this on the poll board. Perhaps my judgement is wrong. Advanced statistic or not, for me, I don't see how Subban fetches Benn.
A #1 Dman is more valuable, generally speaking. And if you want to properly evaluate players, read up on advance statistics. Otherwise, your conclusions will likely be flawed or highly subjective. It'll only help you.

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Old
01-23-2013, 04:23 PM
  #356
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
I'd say it would be fairly close.

Both are really good young players with a ton of upside, that have proven they can take care of their respective #1 positions.

Depends what the franchise needs most I suppose. In our case, I think we have quantity on D, but not a ton of quality.
Could be close, you're right. I posted with an "Even" option, so we'll see. And I agree that the lack of quality Dmen in the system makes it hard for Bergevin, as logically, he would ask for what he's trading away in return...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
A #1 Dman is more valuable, generally speaking. And if you want to properly evaluate players, read up on advance statistics. Otherwise, your conclusions will likely be flawed or highly subjective. It'll only help you.
Thanks, but I'm doing just fine. For me, he's a number one dman like Derek Roy is a number one C, so we're likely not going to agree. I'm glad you have a hobby though

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01-23-2013, 04:33 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by Jerk Store View Post
Thanks, but I'm doing just fine. For me, he's a number one dman like Derek Roy is a number one C, so we're likely not going to agree. I'm glad you have a hobby though
You're obviously not doing fine if you think PK=Roy. The fact you refuse to even look at those stats and learn shows how close minded you are. I mean really, why would anybody to refuse to look at something that will better their conclusions?? Like..

My hobby is the same as yours, watch hockey and discuss the game. Was that supposed to be a shot?

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01-23-2013, 04:38 PM
  #358
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Originally Posted by Jerk Store View Post
I'll post this on the poll board. Perhaps my judgement is wrong. Advanced statistic or not, for me, I don't see how Subban fetches Benn.
IMO it would be a fair trade........

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01-23-2013, 04:42 PM
  #359
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Renaud Lavoie ‏@RenLavoieRDS

Don Meehan expect to have a discussion soon with Marc Bergevin concerning his client PK Subban.

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01-23-2013, 04:44 PM
  #360
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Originally Posted by bigtimehockeyfan999 View Post
Renaud Lavoie ‏@RenLavoieRDS

Don Meehan expect to have a discussion soon with Marc Bergevin concerning his client PK Subban.
Sweet! More vague and likely uneventful news. Miss that good 'ol lockout feeling? I don't.


thanks for the share, though

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01-23-2013, 04:45 PM
  #361
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
You're obviously not doing fine if you think PK=Roy. The fact you refuse to even look at those stats and learn shows how close minded you are. I mean really, why would anybody to refuse to look at something that will better their conclusions?? Like..
I believe what he meant was that Derek Roy is a #1 Center on a mediocre team , much like Subban would be a #1 D on the (mediocre) habs.

it's not a direct correlation of roy = subban.

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01-23-2013, 04:50 PM
  #362
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Stubbs tweeted he filed his P.K. profile, should be up tonight.

Can't wait to read it.

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Old
01-23-2013, 04:52 PM
  #363
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
Stubbs tweeted he filed his P.K. profile, should be up tonight.

Can't wait to read it.
I guess I'll have to wait tomorrow to read it...

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Old
01-23-2013, 04:55 PM
  #364
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Originally Posted by maci4life View Post
I believe what he meant was that Derek Roy is a #1 Center on a mediocre team , much like Subban would be a #1 D on the (mediocre) habs.

it's not a direct correlation of roy = subban.
Precisely why advanced stats is needed.
Anybody can be a #1 on their respective team. Technically speaking, all you need is for all the Dmen ahead of you to get injured an voila.
However, it's a complete other story to be a top pairing guy and be effective at it. Matter of fact, it's even more impressing to be an effective top guy on a weaker team as you get less help and more challenges.

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Old
01-23-2013, 04:56 PM
  #365
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Originally Posted by VirginiaMtlExpat View Post
Very good summary, and I can't find fault with any of your conclusions. I don't think that Bergevin is making a good case for his ability as a critical thinker. He seems to have an approach to negotiating that is ideological rather than practical, and I believe that PK's contribution to the team is undervalued.

Moreover, PK's personality, which is influenced by African-American (ok, African-Canadian) culture, was always bound to differ from traditional WASP and Franco-Canadian culture, from which hockey-related cultural norms arose. For a basketball-related parallel, look at how the modern NBA game is played, and compare it to an era when black players were prevented from playing, let's say, the 50's (e.g. Bob Cousy era): not only are the strategies different, but how players relate to each other is also starkly different. Thus, penalizing PK for reflecting a cultural bias that is different from the usual is like trying to view the modern NBA through the prism of a 50's era basketball fan.

As a result, we need to stick to evaluation criteria that matter in terms of the final result, and possibly re-educating both him and some of his teammates, if the need arises, to at least recognize the impact of these differences on team dynamics.

Sorry if this post reads like psycho-babble.
It does, and frankly it's in bad taste. If only you understood the difference between Subban's upbringing and that of inner city youths in American cities who seek their salvation in pro basketball!

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01-23-2013, 05:00 PM
  #366
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It does, and frankly it's in bad taste. If only you understood the difference between Subban's upbringing and that of inner city youths in American cities who seek their salvation in pro basketball!
Yeah, this conversation is going to go well...

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Old
01-23-2013, 05:00 PM
  #367
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Anybody can be a #1 on their respective team. Technically speaking, all you need is for all the Dmen ahead of you to get injured an voila.
More broadly, I call this Falloon Syndrome: Every hockey team has a best player, but that player isn't necessarily good. The same player traded to another team could be buried to a lesser role and see his stats fall like a rock as he no longer will play the minutes that come with being the best.

See: The best scorer of any expansion team in the 90's.

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Old
01-23-2013, 05:02 PM
  #368
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Originally Posted by 24Cups View Post
I'd do Subban for Benn straight-up in a heartbeat. We need another Top-6 forward more than a dman right now. Beaulieu, Tinordi, and Ellis are on the farm and the best 2 can can replace Bouillion and Kaberle next season. I haven't given up on Weber either.
Please don't mention Weber in the same breath as the Habs' leading prospects.

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Old
01-23-2013, 05:06 PM
  #369
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Please don't mention Weber in the same breath as the Habs' leading prospects.

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Old
01-23-2013, 05:06 PM
  #370
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If we trade Subban our #1 need becomes...

A two way #1 defenseman with a physical edge who is young and can grow with our current core.


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Old
01-23-2013, 05:12 PM
  #371
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Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
If we trade Subban our #1 need becomes...

A two way #1 defenseman with a physical edge who is young and can grow with our current core.

And if we don't find him, don't worry. We still have Bouillon!

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Old
01-23-2013, 05:12 PM
  #372
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Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
If we trade Subban our #1 need becomes...

A two way #1 defenseman
with a physical edge who is young and can grow with our current core.

lots of #1 D do very well without being physical. They're just paired with some who hit that is all.

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01-23-2013, 05:15 PM
  #373
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lots of #1 D do very well without being physical. They're just paired with some who hit that is all.
Or he could be all of that and not NEED to be with a guy who NEEDS to be physical and a hitter?

I think the IQ of this board was way higher during the lockout.

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01-23-2013, 05:17 PM
  #374
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
I actually asked him to post proof that Gionta, Cole and Gorges said something negative about PK last year. (And not just a comment after being asked about him).

Nothing so far. So if you can't back up the statements, yeah, they are probably lies, or at the very least conjecture.
This year, in the 6 day's training camp, Gionta said to comments that can be perceive negative toward PK, you may think they are not, time will tell, i'm not working as a researcher for you Gonzo... look it up yourself or don't believe it, but don't say people are telling lies, it's all a question of perception. PK fans will always say it's bull, PK haters will say it's definetly true. I say where there is smoke.... time will tell

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01-23-2013, 05:19 PM
  #375
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Or he could be all of that and not NEED to be with a guy who NEEDS to be physical and a hitter?

I think the IQ of this board was way higher during the lockout
.
Off course. Hockey season started, what did you expected?

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