HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Buffalo Sabres
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Thoughts on the Patrick Kaleta penalty

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-22-2013, 04:05 PM
  #51
7even
Moderator
Deus Ex Machina
 
7even's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Georgia
Country: United States
Posts: 7,924
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blitz View Post
I loved Jim Ralph explaining to Joe Bowen (on TSN) that Kessel was lucky it was just Kaleta, and not big John Scott. Something along the lines of if it was anyone but Kessel, intent would have been assumed and the consequences would have been far more severe.

Nice to see immediate action, well worth the sacrificed PP... and I would kill for a screen grab of Phil's face when the refs finally pulled Patty off his back - he looked so scared & confused. LOL
exactly why Kaleta's "HULK SMASH" was so unnecessary; Phil Kessel has all the bad intentions of your average teddy bear

7even is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-22-2013, 04:05 PM
  #52
dma0034
Registered User
 
dma0034's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,837
vCash: 600
I'd be willing to take a penalty if one isn't called to make sure players don't bump into Miller. Miller has showed that he is bothered when teams start bumping into him.

dma0034 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-22-2013, 04:08 PM
  #53
Dfnswnschmpnshps
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 104
vCash: 500
I loved Kaleta's response. No hesitation, and got in plenty of shots.

Really like the feel of this "new" team. Its crazy how something as simple as a mindset, can re-define a team.

Dfnswnschmpnshps is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-22-2013, 04:31 PM
  #54
Silence Of The Plams
All these feels
 
Silence Of The Plams's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Lancaster, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 17,376
vCash: 500
Justified. He went in and stood up for his guys, and Miller. No one came near him after. Poster above me does a very good job on making the point about the mindset.

Silence Of The Plams is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-22-2013, 04:37 PM
  #55
BackGroundMusic
rebuildingeverywhere
 
BackGroundMusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Country: Germany
Posts: 24,577
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheyAreGoodScaryGood View Post
Destroy anyone who touches him
Pretty much yeah.

BackGroundMusic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-22-2013, 10:15 PM
  #56
joshjull
Moderator
 
joshjull's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hamburg,NY
Country: United States
Posts: 32,704
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bucky Gleason View Post
Enjoy that phantom call at the end of the game? Everything comes at a cost.

Incidentally, the Leafs must have sent a message without mugging a guy from behind. The Sabres didn't interfere with Scrivens at all! Maybe ask them how to do it?

Pat going after Kessel

You, as well as some of the posters defending Pat, are missing the main point of why what Pat did is a good thing and will help build a stronger team. Its no different than Stafford fighting Hartnell. Its not really about deterrence so much as its about team building and developing an attitude of everyone having everyone else's back. Most successful teams play this way. Something GrigsandGirgs pointed out in this thread and the GDT.

I'm guessing if Stafford had gotten an instigator. You would have been upset because we would have had to kill a penalty. Having a willing opponent after a cheapshot or late hit like that isn't always the case. Most opponents won't be so accommodating and we will be killing more penalties because of it.


Kaleta's penalty at the end of the game

That penalty was a rep call but Pat has to be smarter in that situation. Hecht had things covered in front and had crosschecked Kadri away from Miller. Pat didn't need to get involved at that point. Pat himself said he has to be smarter in that situation.


Everything comes at a cost.


That it does. Playing the way you've suggested (take the PP and try and make them pay by scoring on it) is how this team has operated for the last several years. The cost to playing that way has been either missing the playoffs all together or early exits when we made it. The only "cost" to last nights game was a nail biting finish but we won.



Btw statistically speaking, teams rarely make the other team pay when they turn the other cheek and take the PP chance. Just look at the PP conversion rates in the NHL the last few years. Last season they ranged from a best of 21.6% to the worst 13.5%. There are rarely more than a handful of teams above 20%. Now look at the PK rates and see how rarely teams pay for taking penalties. 76.7% on the bottom last year and 89.6% at the top with 24 teams at or above 80%.


Teams don't really pay that high of a price for aggressive play and frankly more than a few teams have used that mixed with skill players to have successful playoff runs. I'll take a team looking to rebrand its identity playing a harder game that will cost us PP opportunities and makes us PK a few more times over the passive version we had for the last few years.


Last edited by joshjull: 01-22-2013 at 10:30 PM.
joshjull is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-22-2013, 10:32 PM
  #57
barcs
Registered User
 
barcs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 1,952
vCash: 500
Maybe I'm nitpicking - and don't get me wrong, I love what Pat did - but I want Buffalo to be the team that bumps the goalie. I don't want to be the team that gets bumped and has to react. Through 120 minutes I don't feel as if they've set the tone physically in either game, they just reacted to it. That said, this team a year ago around this time would cower from answering the bell so it is certainly a step in the right direction. The question is, at what price does that culture come though? Boston and Philly were those teams last season and Anaheim was prior to last season. It had worked favorably for Boston and Philly but it got Anaheim in a lot of trouble.

barcs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-22-2013, 10:35 PM
  #58
joshjull
Moderator
 
joshjull's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hamburg,NY
Country: United States
Posts: 32,704
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by barcs View Post
Maybe I'm nitpicking - and don't get me wrong, I love what Pat did -but I want Buffalo to be the team that bumps the goalie. I don't want to be the team that gets bumped and has to react. Through 120 minutes I don't feel as if they've set the tone physically in either game, they just reacted to it. That said, this team a year ago around this time would cower from answering the bell so it is certainly a step in the right direction. The question is, at what price does that culture come though? Boston and Philly were those teams last season and Anaheim was prior to last season. It had worked favorably for Boston and Philly but it got Anaheim in a lot of trouble.
Give it time. The season just started.



Not sure what you mean in terms of Anaheim. They won a Cup playing that way and have lost a ton of talent since then. I'm not getting your point there.


EDIT: you also left out the Rangers, Sens, St. Louis and the Devils as teams that played with a hard edge and didn't back away from anything.


Last edited by joshjull: 01-22-2013 at 10:46 PM.
joshjull is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-22-2013, 11:02 PM
  #59
JOHNBOY
BUFFALO SABRES
 
JOHNBOY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Denver NC
Country: United States
Posts: 10,146
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to JOHNBOY
Quote:
Originally Posted by jame View Post
protect everyone, kill penalties
this

JOHNBOY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-22-2013, 11:05 PM
  #60
drinking bleach irl
POST MORE RECKLESS
 
drinking bleach irl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Virginia
Country: Ras al-Khaimah
Posts: 11,021
vCash: 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Pat going after Kessel

You, as well as some of the posters defending Pat, are missing the main point of why what Pat did is a good thing and will help build a stronger team. Its no different than Stafford fighting Hartnell. Its not really about deterrence so much as its about team building and developing an attitude of everyone having everyone else's back. Most successful teams play this way. Something GrigsandGirgs pointed out in this thread and the GDT.
I get the feeling I've been unclear. I don't care for PK's actions if they are the sign of a forming trend. Not every accidental slight needs rough justice in return. What, is Kessel not going to unintentionally bump Miller again because some third liner knocks him to the ice? It's not like Tootoo taking a flying leap here.

Quote:
Everything comes at a cost.


That it does. Playing the way you've suggested (take the PP and try and make them pay by scoring on it) is how this team has operated for the last several years. The cost to playing that way has been either missing the playoffs all together or early exits when we made it. The only "cost" to last nights game was a nail biting finish but we won.
Vancouver made game 7 of the finals never sticking up for their players . I don't think that tipped the balance.

And in terms of what it cost them last night, they went from a 5-4 for two minutes to a 4-4 where they ended up taking a penalty. It could have been a lot worse. Miller made sure it wasn't, and I'm not sure he'd make that trade in this instance.



Quote:
Btw statistically speaking, teams rarely make the other team pay when they turn the other cheek and take the PP chance. Just look at the PP conversion rates in the NHL the last few years. Last season they ranged from a best of 21.6% to the worst 13.5%. There are rarely more than a handful of teams above 20%. Now look at the PK rates and see how rarely teams pay for taking penalties. 76.7% on the bottom last year and 89.6% at the top with 24 teams at or above 80%.
A 15% chance at a goal? Sign me up.


Quote:
Teams don't really pay that high of a price for aggressive play and frankly more than a few teams have used that mixed with skill players to have successful playoff runs. I'll take a team looking to rebrand its identity playing a harder game that will cost us PP opportunities and makes us PK a few more times over the passive version we had for the last few years.
There's a difference between aggressive play and retaliatory penalties, no?

drinking bleach irl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2013, 05:39 AM
  #61
TennisMenace
Registered User
 
TennisMenace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Buffalo
Country: United States
Posts: 1,661
vCash: 500
I applaud the teammanship. Finally, Buffalo won't be bullied around. Big Scott is waiting for the bad Boo-ins to try something.

TennisMenace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2013, 06:52 AM
  #62
BowieSabresFan
Registered User
 
BowieSabresFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,675
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Paxon View Post
Honestly, if I had to assume what was going through his head -- I'd rather not -- I'd say he was too focused on the puck to really realize he was definitely going to crash into Miller, so I don't think he deserves much blame. That said, I still support Kaleta or whoever else not allowing that to happen.
Yea, that's plausible, but I guess I give Kessel too much credit for knowing he is about to go through the crease. Even assuming it was unintentional, you have to be more aware in that situation.

Either way, he deserved what he got. You cannot allow contact like that to go unchallenged. That play had ramifications for not just that game, but the rest of the season.

BowieSabresFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2013, 07:08 AM
  #63
SackTastic
Embrace The Suck
 
SackTastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Country: United States
Posts: 5,061
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bucky Gleason View Post
I get the feeling I've been unclear. I don't care for PK's actions if they are the sign of a forming trend. Not every accidental slight needs rough justice in return. What, is Kessel not going to unintentionally bump Miller again because some third liner knocks him to the ice? It's not like Tootoo taking a flying leap here
Kessel and most of his teammates will become less likely to skate near the crease if they know that if they touch Miller by doing so, they'll get pummeled. This gives Miller more room to operate, and in turn gives the team a better chance to win.

Contrary to popular opinion, most hockey players don't like getting beat up. Will getting jumped by Kaleta stop a guy like Hartnell? Not likely. But it sure as hell will have a skill guy like Kessel thinking twice about getting that close.

This fluffy, Hello Kitty Island Adventure world you live in is how the Sabres GOT their reputation for being soft, and other teams took advantage of it. Being tough is part of the psychology of the game. Not goonery for the sake of goonery, but standing up and imposing your will on your opponent. If you change THEIR game, you can play YOUR game better.

Passive, just take the power play hockey is ***** hockey, and will never take you far.

SackTastic is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2013, 07:43 AM
  #64
Blitz
GONNA TAKE ReinHART
 
Blitz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,127
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
Kessel and most of his teammates will become less likely to skate near the crease if they know that if they touch Miller by doing so, they'll get pummeled. This gives Miller more room to operate, and in turn gives the team a better chance to win.

Contrary to popular opinion, most hockey players don't like getting beat up. Will getting jumped by Kaleta stop a guy like Hartnell? Not likely. But it sure as hell will have a skill guy like Kessel thinking twice about getting that close.

This fluffy, Hello Kitty Island Adventure world you live in is how the Sabres GOT their reputation for being soft, and other teams took advantage of it. Being tough is part of the psychology of the game. Not goonery for the sake of goonery, but standing up and imposing your will on your opponent. If you change THEIR game, you can play YOUR game better.

Passive, just take the power play hockey is ***** hockey, and will never take you far.
It's a lot like the Gretzky/Semenko dynamic - Could you hit Gretzky? Sure, you COULD... Are you gonna do it more than once? Not likely after Semenko gave you a bit discouragement (ie; ragdolled & beat you). Opponents almost always pulled up when going after Gretzky once it was understood that knocking him down was not worth the consequences to follow.

Other players in the league need to understand that physicality/contact on Miller or Jhonas will not be tolerated at all. Eventually that bubble around the blue paint will grow, and in turn Ryan has more room to maneuver, and better sight lines = more saves.

Blitz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2013, 09:56 AM
  #65
Ralonzo
Я хочу!
 
Ralonzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Virginia
Country: United States
Posts: 4,746
vCash: 500
Send a message via Yahoo to Ralonzo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
This fluffy, Hello Kitty Island Adventure world you live in is how the Sabres GOT their reputation for being soft
I don't care you are, that's funny right there

Ralonzo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2013, 10:59 AM
  #66
JohnnyDrama21
HFB Partner
 
JohnnyDrama21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Cleveland, OH
Country: United States
Posts: 563
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by barcs View Post
Maybe I'm nitpicking - and don't get me wrong, I love what Pat did - but I want Buffalo to be the team that bumps the goalie. I don't want to be the team that gets bumped and has to react. Through 120 minutes I don't feel as if they've set the tone physically in either game, they just reacted to it. That said, this team a year ago around this time would cower from answering the bell so it is certainly a step in the right direction. The question is, at what price does that culture come though? Boston and Philly were those teams last season and Anaheim was prior to last season. It had worked favorably for Boston and Philly but it got Anaheim in a lot of trouble.
Just wait for Foligno, Stafford, and Ott to get into a groove. There will be few goalies that don't hate them.

JohnnyDrama21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2013, 11:57 AM
  #67
joshjull
Moderator
 
joshjull's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hamburg,NY
Country: United States
Posts: 32,704
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bucky Gleason View Post
I get the feeling I've been unclear. I don't care for PK's actions if they are the sign of a forming trend. Not every accidental slight needs rough justice in return. What, is Kessel not going to unintentionally bump Miller again because some third liner knocks him to the ice? It's not like Tootoo taking a flying leap here.



Vancouver made game 7 of the finals never sticking up for their players . I don't think that tipped the balance.

And in terms of what it cost them last night, they went from a 5-4 for two minutes to a 4-4 where they ended up taking a penalty. It could have been a lot worse. Miller made sure it wasn't, and I'm not sure he'd make that trade in this instance.





A 15% chance at a goal? Sign me up.



There's a difference between aggressive play and retaliatory penalties, no?
Bringing up Vancover serves what purpose exactly?

You'd rather get a 15% chance at a goal and I would prefer retaliation.

Which leads to my next point, aggressive hockey does include retaliating when things happen. Particularly when a team is trying to change their identity. Not sure why you think it doesn't.

I guess we'll agree to disagree. I grew up in the 70s/80s on a much more violent game. I prefer nasty aggressive hockey which includes responding when the goalie or teammate is run or given a cheapahot. You prefer dealing with that stuff with trying to get a PP goal.

To each their own.


Last edited by joshjull: 01-23-2013 at 12:54 PM.
joshjull is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2013, 03:12 PM
  #68
SublimeNightmare
Registered User
 
SublimeNightmare's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Embrace the Tank
Country: United States
Posts: 277
vCash: 500
Send a message via Yahoo to SublimeNightmare
Take your PP chances elsewhere. If you goalie gets run you do not look for a PP. You beat the hell out of the guy that did it. Plain and simple. Want PP's? Move your legs, skate like crazy and you will get them.

SublimeNightmare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2013, 04:23 PM
  #69
Dfnswnschmpnshps
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 104
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Bringing up Vancover serves what purpose exactly?

You'd rather get a 15% chance at a goal and I would prefer retaliation.

Which leads to my next point, aggressive hockey does include retaliating when things happen. Particularly when a team is trying to change their identity. Not sure why you think it doesn't.

I guess we'll agree to disagree. I grew up in the 70s/80s on a much more violent game. I prefer nasty aggressive hockey which includes responding when the goalie or teammate is run or given a cheapahot. You prefer dealing with that stuff with trying to get a PP goal.

To each their own.
Agreed. If you don't score on the ensuing power play, what kind of response have you sent?

Dfnswnschmpnshps is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2013, 04:46 PM
  #70
drinking bleach irl
POST MORE RECKLESS
 
drinking bleach irl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Virginia
Country: Ras al-Khaimah
Posts: 11,021
vCash: 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
Kessel and most of his teammates will become less likely to skate near the crease if they know that if they touch Miller by doing so, they'll get pummeled. This gives Miller more room to operate, and in turn gives the team a better chance to win.

Contrary to popular opinion, most hockey players don't like getting beat up. Will getting jumped by Kaleta stop a guy like Hartnell? Not likely. But it sure as hell will have a skill guy like Kessel thinking twice about getting that close.
I think you sell these guys short on their toughness. Getting tackled wouldn't even hurt that much if they weren't wearing body armor in the first place. I expect most people have played hockey here before, and have been on the receiving end of this. Wouldn't you agree? I don't believe the occasional pop to the chest or facewash is going to stop an elite goal scorer from the play that earned him 5 million dollars per year.



Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Bringing up Vancover serves what purpose exactly?
You heavily implied that the Sabres' tendency to take the man advantage over sticking up for their teammates directly impacted their season performance. I'd posit that it was the quality of the roster instead, as the Canucks did things the exact same way as the Sabres and made the finals.

Quote:
You'd rather get a 15% chance at a goal and I would prefer retaliation.
Yes.

Quote:
Which leads to my next point, aggressive hockey does include retaliating when things happen. Particularly when a team is trying to change their identity. Not sure why you think it doesn't.
Of course it happens. NFL teams punt on 4th and 2 at the 50 yard line. NHL teams dress enforcers who play 3 minutes a game over shootout specialists. Just because something is conventional wisdom doesn't mean it's the right call strategically.

Quote:
I guess we'll agree to disagree. I grew up in the 70s/80s on a much more violent game. I prefer nasty aggressive hockey which includes responding when the goalie or teammate is run or given a cheapahot. You prefer dealing with that stuff with trying to get a PP goal.

To each their own.
While true that we disagree, I don't think you (and others) understand where I'm coming from. There's a time for violence in hockey. I'm a proponent of intentionally taking players out via injury if the benefit outweighs the cost. If Kaleta had broken Richards' leg in the 10-11 series, The Sabres would have advanced to the next round at the cost of a couple games in suspension to their third liner.

That's another issue though, and one I feel elicits a great deal of cognitive dissonance among "OTH" fans.

drinking bleach irl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2013, 05:55 PM
  #71
slip
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,357
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dfnswnschmpnshps View Post
Agreed. If you don't score on the ensuing power play, what kind of response have you sent?
See Buffalo the past 5 years to answer that question.

slip is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2013, 06:00 PM
  #72
Dreakon
Registered User
 
Dreakon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Mighty Taco
Country: United States
Posts: 858
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LGB24 View Post
Is it time to be a little less sensitive around Miller and take the man advantage in cases like the accidental bump by Kessel?
You say that like we have a history of being too touchy with the other team and Miller.

I loved Kaleta's response. Even if Kessel's contact was accidental and probably not deserving of it. Look at Miller's reaction after Kessel hits him. He was ready to go after him himself, until he saw Kaleta jump in (probably wasn't expecting it and I wouldn't blame him). Only two games into the season and the other teams have been all over him... most likely trying to throw us off our game (probably costing themselves a few goals/games in the process if four disallowed goals in two games is any indicator).

I want our guys going ape **** any time the other team is even near Miller. Once that precedent is set, then they can start to tone it down.


Last edited by Dreakon: 01-23-2013 at 06:13 PM.
Dreakon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-23-2013, 06:26 PM
  #73
5 Minute Major
Registered User
 
5 Minute Major's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Binghamton, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 2,577
vCash: 500
Not only am I happy with the response of Kaleta, I want the Sabres to 1 up any team that does these sort of things.....run their goalie if it calls for it only after Miller gets ran and after we see a Kaleta sort of response.

Only when other teams fear their own goalie being knocked around may we not have to see a retaliation of our own.

5 Minute Major is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:50 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.