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01-23-2013, 02:57 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Isles Fan View Post
The Pedro reference holds absolutely no water at all here is why:

Pedro was signed by the Mets in December of 2004 and was on the team through the 2008 season so he played 4 years for them. In those 4 years the biggest names the Mets signed were:

Carlos Beltran - Only singed with the Mets because they offered the most money and he made it publically known he wanted to play for the Yankees
Billy Wagner
Julio Franco - Past his prime
Paul DeLuca - Average catcher at best
Moises Alou - See Julio Franco

Now they had other signings during Pedro’s Met lifetime but names hardly recognizable. So the Pedro theory is wrong.

There is no reason to believe Wang will ever throw money at this team again. Many here think that just because of the move he will suddenly have this cash infusion and decides to pour it back into the team. That too is false. For the revenue streams to be available for the Isles when they move, Wang would have to start building a winner now so they can sell tickets to the new place. This way when they do move they are a playoff caliber team and people will want to come see them. The reality is Wang has made it clear he will continue to spend to the cap floor and when they move they will still be a crappy team playing in a new building. FA's go where there is a chance to win, they don't go because of a building despite what NYI ownership wants you to believe. There are going to be a lot of empty seats in that shiny new building.
Actually, Wang expressed the exact opposite when I listened to him on WFAN a few months ago when the deal was announced. He himself stated that he believes they will now be a bigger player in the UFA market. While he didn't necessarily say they will increase spending(can't quite remember if he did), you would have to assume that is what he means by being a bigger player.

As far as the Mets comparison goes, it actually does make sense. Sign one guy(Pedro) to lead the youth(Wright/Reyes) and make the team relevant again; see the team inch closer to competitiveness and make a big signing(Beltran) and a big trade(Delgado) to put the icing on the cake.

I could honestly see something similar happening with this Islander team. Hopefully they choose the right veteran(again, Iginla seems like a solid comparable. An all-time great who is nearing the end of his career but still has some gas left in the tank... whether he would actually sign here is a different story).

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01-23-2013, 03:15 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
Actually, Wang expressed the exact opposite when I listened to him on WFAN a few months ago when the deal was announced. He himself stated that he believes they will now be a bigger player in the UFA market. While he didn't necessarily say they will increase spending(can't quite remember if he did), you would have to assume that is what he means by being a bigger player.

As far as the Mets comparison goes, it actually does make sense. Sign one guy(Pedro) to lead the youth(Wright/Reyes) and make the team relevant again; see the team inch closer to competitiveness and make a big signing(Beltran) and a big trade(Delgado) to put the icing on the cake.

I could honestly see something similar happening with this Islander team. Hopefully they choose the right veteran(again, Iginla seems like a solid comparable. An all-time great who is nearing the end of his career but still has some gas left in the tank... whether he would actually sign here is a different story).
But his words are meaningless. He said all sorts of BS the past three years about Garth having the green light to spend, then in just one interview slightly below the radar he revealed his lies by stating that "economic realities" dictated the team's roster.

Really Blinkman, do you honestly believe Wang's words? IMO, the posters who previously said that the team will try to cherry pick a cast off/salary dump this summer for some talent are right, and the ones who said Wang won't invest much more until the team outperforms itself and they are in Brooklyn and have to show results to get sponsors going and suites sold are 100% on the money. It would also not surprise me if he sells sometime in the next two years to make it someone else's problem all together.

I am using August 30th as the put up or shut up date this summer to call Wang out if we don't make (at least) two significant upgrades, and one had better be for a better defenseman than Streit.


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01-23-2013, 03:21 PM
  #28
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It does take that one player to take the plunge. I like your Pedro example.

Hopefully this offseason is the one where he actually greenlights Snow to go full bore for someone. I'd back the money truck in front of Corey Perry's house, that type of signing would be a franchise changer.
One problem with that line of thinking PW - why would Perry want to come here? To play with Tavares? To receive passes from a defense that is laughable? I agree adding one who is respected around the league would help attract others, but getting that 1 first is really hard. To get the chicken, you need the egg, but to get the egg, you need the chicken. We have neither, and apparently all of Tavares' BFFs are 21 or under.

How does one make that work?

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01-23-2013, 03:23 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by A Pointed Stick View Post
But his words are meaningless. He said all sorts of BS the past three years about Garth having the green light to spend, then in just one interview lightly below the radar he revealed his lies by stating that "economic realities" dictated the team's roster.

Really Blinkman, do you honestly believe Wang's words? IMO, the posters who previously said that the team will try to cherry pick a cast off/salary dump this summer for some talent are right, and the ones who said Wang won't invest much more until the team outperforms itself and they are in Brooklyn and have to show results to get sponsors going and suites sold are 100% on the money. It would also not surprise me if he sells sometime in the next two years to make it someone else's problem all together.

I am using August 30th as the put up or shut up date this summer to call Wang out if we don't make (at least) two significant upgrades, and one had better be for a better defenseman than Streit.
Honestly, no. I just thought you were referring to something he actually said when you said "Wang's made it clear that he will continue to spend to the cap floor". I know Wang has said he thinks this team as constructed can compete, which I think is all PC. Anyone buying into that is definitely an optimistic person.

That said, I have a hard time saying the Isles will or won't increase spending next offseason. They have yet to be in a position like this where they have certainty surrounding their future home. Even if Wang's intention is to sell the team, I could still see him making a couple of splashes in the offseason. I'm sure he knows that a playoff caliber team going into a new arena in Brooklyn will hold more value than a bottom-5 team going into a new building in Brooklyn.

I'm optimistic that the payroll will increase, although won't be surprised if it doesn't(yet).

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01-23-2013, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by A Pointed Stick View Post
One problem with that line of thinking PW - why would Perry want to come here? To play with Tavares? To receive passes from a defense that is laughable? I agree adding one who is respected around the league would help attract others, but getting that 1 first is really hard. To get the chicken, you need the egg, but to get the egg, you need the chicken. We have neither, and apparently all of Tavares' BFFs are 21 or under.

How does one make that work?
In reality the Isles don't need to go after a guy like Perry. As long as they are OK with increased spending, they could trade for the guy they want if it comes down to it. God knows they have enough picks/prospects to find a deal.

I think money generally talks when it comes to free agents, but if for some reason it doesn't, I'm sure the Isles could find another way to improve the team. One example:

Patrick Sharp. Chicago is up against the cap. Hossa and Keith have untradeable contracts. Toews, Kane and Seabrook are home-grown building blocks that won't be going anywhere. Sharp seems like the odd man out, and would be a perfect fit for the Isles. The Islanders not only can offer better assets than most teams, but they are one of the few teams that can take on a contract like that without having to send any salary back.

Again, IF the Isles are actually on board with adding payroll, I'm sure there will be plenty of options out there aside from the UFA market.

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01-23-2013, 03:51 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
Honestly, no. I just thought you were referring to something he actually said when you said "Wang's made it clear that he will continue to spend to the cap floor". I know Wang has said he thinks this team as constructed can compete, which I think is all PC. Anyone buying into that is definitely an optimistic person.

That said, I have a hard time saying the Isles will or won't increase spending next offseason. They have yet to be in a position like this where they have certainty surrounding their future home. Even if Wang's intention is to sell the team, I could still see him making a couple of splashes in the offseason. I'm sure he knows that a playoff caliber team going into a new arena in Brooklyn will hold more value than a bottom-5 team going into a new building in Brooklyn.

I'm optimistic that the payroll will increase, although won't be surprised if it doesn't(yet).
Agree 100% with the bolded. I don't know what they will do. Wang is a wild card, and that's being conservative. Does he put his money where his mouth is? Does he miraculously wind up with no new good players this summer yet again? I don't know.
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Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
In reality the Isles don't need to go after a guy like Perry. As long as they are OK with increased spending, they could trade for the guy they want if it comes down to it. God knows they have enough picks/prospects to find a deal.

I think money generally talks when it comes to free agents, but if for some reason it doesn't, I'm sure the Isles could find another way to improve the team.
Agree again, but last summer really pulled out whatever hope I had that Wang would do this. No one, not even a true hockey midget like Wang could have looked into the camera and said the wallet was open honestly with a run down flea bag of a defense like ours staring him in the face. It was such a bold lie that I was insulted he thought we were that stupid.
This summer though, everyone, even his staunchest fans, get to see if he is going to live up to his promises, or if he was full of it.

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01-23-2013, 03:57 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by startainfection View Post
how long do you think it is until wang spend money and throws around contracts like he was 11 years ago?

i think this offseason the isles get significantly better because I'm still expecting playoffs this season and i think he opens up his wallet in response to that
I'd love for Wang to open his checkbook. I thought he would, as soon as the arena issue was settled.It didn't happen.

It does sound like the isles expect a lot of players to be available, between the ufa market and teams trying to get below the $60m cap.

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01-23-2013, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by A Pointed Stick View Post
But his words are meaningless. He said all sorts of BS the past three years about Garth having the green light to spend, then in just one interview slightly below the radar he revealed his lies by stating that "economic realities" dictated the team's roster.

Really Blinkman, do you honestly believe Wang's words? IMO, the posters who previously said that the team will try to cherry pick a cast off/salary dump this summer for some talent are right, and the ones who said Wang won't invest much more until the team outperforms itself and they are in Brooklyn and have to show results to get sponsors going and suites sold are 100% on the money. It would also not surprise me if he sells sometime in the next two years to make it someone else's problem all together.

I am using August 30th as the put up or shut up date this summer to call Wang out if we don't make (at least) two significant upgrades, and one had better be for a better defenseman than Streit.
I keep flip flopping on keeping Streit. There are times when his play is frustrating to watch, but can the isles weak blueline, really let him just walk?

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01-23-2013, 04:01 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by A Pointed Stick View Post
Agree again, but last summer really pulled out whatever hope I had that Wang would do this. No one, not even a true hockey midget like Wang could have looked into the camera and said the wallet was open honestly with a run down flea bag of a defense like ours staring him in the face. It was such a bold lie that I was insulted he thought we were that stupid.
This summer though, everyone, even his staunchest fans, get to see if he is going to live up to his promises, or if he was full of it.
Right now it looks pretty bad on paper, but they were probably assuming both Visnovsky and deHaan would be opening the season on the roster. Had that been the case, we would have been looking at something like this I suppose:

Streit - Hamonic
Visnovsky - MacDonald
deHaan - Carkner

Not great, but not nearly as thin as it looks right now. Kind of bad luck on both accounts.

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01-23-2013, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
I'd love for Wang to open his checkbook. I thought he would, as soon as the arena issue was settled.It didn't happen.

It does sound like the isles expect a lot of players to be available, between the ufa market and teams trying to get below the $60m cap.
The arena issue was settled during the lockout though, wasn't it(unless I'm losing my mind)? Not sure what he/Snow could have done other than making a trade right around the time of training camp. Hard to tell what was actually available, if anything, and what the price would have been.

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01-23-2013, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
I keep flip flopping on keeping Streit. There are times when his play is frustrating to watch, but can the isles weak blueline, really let him just walk?
I don't think our blueline can stand the presence of Finley, so you are asking the wrong guy.

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01-23-2013, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by A Pointed Stick View Post
One problem with that line of thinking PW - why would Perry want to come here? To play with Tavares? To receive passes from a defense that is laughable? I agree adding one who is respected around the league would help attract others, but getting that 1 first is really hard. To get the chicken, you need the egg, but to get the egg, you need the chicken. We have neither, and apparently all of Tavares' BFFs are 21 or under.

How does one make that work?
You're right, Perry is a definite pipe dream. Moulson is 21+ ya know.

As for how to make it work, your guess is as good as mine. The only thing I can think of is overpaying for that initial player to get the ball rolling. In the meantime, winning is the best selling point so the boys have to get it done on the ice. If JT were to put up an Art Ross/Hart trophy type of season and the team makes a legit run at the playoffs... It would definitely be a much easier sell. That's pretty much what I'm hoping for.

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01-23-2013, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
Right now it looks pretty bad on paper, but they were probably assuming both Visnovsky and deHaan would be opening the season on the roster. Had that been the case, we would have been looking at something like this I suppose:

Streit - Hamonic
Visnovsky - MacDonald
deHaan - Carkner

Not great, but not nearly as thin as it looks right now. Kind of bad luck on both accounts.
A normal team would have erased deHaan's name off the prospect chart after his last (though doubtfully the last) injury. Streit's already inconsistent and getting older... Again, if this was a normal team they would have addressed it this summer via trade, and a normal club would be forced to address it this summer.

I see this summer as a watershed moment, either Wang is a man of his word, Garth scores a solid win, the club reveals that it really was waiting for the best moment to load both barrels and fire... or they are corrupt vampires from the bogs of hell bent on sucking our hearts out with a Milwaukee drill and two swizzel straws.

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01-23-2013, 04:11 PM
  #39
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The Pedro reference holds absolutely no water at all here is why:

Pedro was signed by the Mets in December of 2004 and was on the team through the 2008 season so he played 4 years for them. In those 4 years the biggest names the Mets signed were:

Carlos Beltran - Only singed with the Mets because they offered the most money and he made it publically known he wanted to play for the Yankees
Billy Wagner
Julio Franco - Past his prime
Paul DeLuca - Average catcher at best
Moises Alou - See Julio Franco

Now they had other signings during Pedro’s Met lifetime but names hardly recognizable. So the Pedro theory is wrong.

There is no reason to believe Wang will ever throw money at this team again. Many here think that just because of the move he will suddenly have this cash infusion and decides to pour it back into the team. That too is false. For the revenue streams to be available for the Isles when they move, Wang would have to start building a winner now so they can sell tickets to the new place. This way when they do move they are a playoff caliber team and people will want to come see them. The reality is Wang has made it clear he will continue to spend to the cap floor and when they move they will still be a crappy team playing in a new building. FA's go where there is a chance to win, they don't go because of a building despite what NYI ownership wants you to believe. There are going to be a lot of empty seats in that shiny new building.

You're making my point for me. Beltran, the top free agent that winter, still signed with the Mets. Doesn't matter his reasons, he would not have done so if he didn't want to play there. Same for Wagner, an A-list closer. Pedro opened the door for these signings, making it cool to be a Met.

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01-23-2013, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by A Pointed Stick View Post
One problem with that line of thinking PW - why would Perry want to come here? To play with Tavares? To receive passes from a defense that is laughable? I agree adding one who is respected around the league would help attract others, but getting that 1 first is really hard. To get the chicken, you need the egg, but to get the egg, you need the chicken. We have neither, and apparently all of Tavares' BFFs are 21 or under.

How does one make that work?

Don't discount this. After money, "who will I play with" is often the most important factor in a free agent's decision. Perry might love the chance to play on Tavares' wing. He might realize 5+ years alongside Tavares could put him in the hall of fame. Will any other suitor offer that potential? Not saying they'll get Perry (I think he stays) but a superstar teammate is a big attraction to some.

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01-23-2013, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
Visnovsky probably wants to be on a contender considering his age. Nino wants playing time, and probably doesn't care where the team is located as long as he gets it.

I don't think these two situations have anything to do with whether or not we'll be able to get UFAs. I guess we'll find out after the season though.
i don't think so. I believe that he loves the Islanders. Yet he is young and frustrated.
working his ass out in AHL, getting results and believing he would deserve a top 9 on the NHL. More than ever.

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01-23-2013, 05:03 PM
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I believe he will be more successful getting FA's to sign with the Isles this coming offseason. It won't be the big names, but even guys like Paul Martin, who we missed out on due to instability, will start to sign with the Isles. I truly believe July 2014 the Isles will sign some big name FA's.

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01-23-2013, 05:13 PM
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Actually, Wang expressed the exact opposite when I listened to him on WFAN a few months ago when the deal was announced. He himself stated that he believes they will now be a bigger player in the UFA market. While he didn't necessarily say they will increase spending(can't quite remember if he did), you would have to assume that is what he means by being a bigger player.

As far as the Mets comparison goes, it actually does make sense. Sign one guy(Pedro) to lead the youth(Wright/Reyes) and make the team relevant again; see the team inch closer to competitiveness and make a big signing(Beltran) and a big trade(Delgado) to put the icing on the cake.

I could honestly see something similar happening with this Islander team. Hopefully they choose the right veteran(again, Iginla seems like a solid comparable. An all-time great who is nearing the end of his career but still has some gas left in the tank... whether he would actually sign here is a different story).
You need to make up your mind what you are comparing. You originally said the Mets signing Pedro lead to other big signings, because "guys would want to get in on it", when it in fact did not. Now your are saying a veteran to lead the younger guys. Which is it?

The Delgado trade had nothing to do with Pedro. The Marlins were in the midst of one of their fire sales. Thsy gt ride of Delgado and his salary for two young guys. A few days later the Marlins unloaded Beckett and Loweel to the Red Sox for the same reason. Lets face it, Delgado was not really a big time player. Never hit better than .271 as a Met, had descent HR numbers , hit 38 twice in his Met tenure, but overall not a big time guy and Pedro had nothing to do with Delgado becoming a Met.

As for Wang's comments on FAN, he has made those comments before about how he is willing to spend but it never happens. Wang seems to think that having a new address will make FA's come here but it won't. No player has ever said they did not sign with the NYI because of the building they play in. That theroy has been shoved down our throats by ownership becasue it was a convient excuse, now they don't have that excuse anymore but I am sure they'll come up with somehting new. Players want to win, it's really plain and simple. There is no dedication to winning here so why would a big time name come here?

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01-23-2013, 05:25 PM
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the Mets signing Pedro lead to other big signings, because "guys would want to get in on it"

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01-23-2013, 05:30 PM
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You're making my point for me. Beltran, the top free agent that winter, still signed with the Mets. Doesn't matter his reasons, he would not have done so if he didn't want to play there. Same for Wagner, an A-list closer. Pedro opened the door for these signings, making it cool to be a Met.
Beltran was not the top free agent that winter Pedro was and Beltran made it very clear, it has been well chronicled, he wanted to go to the Yankees but the Yankees would not match the Mets offer. He ended up with the Mets for nothing more than money. Had the Yankees offered a dollar more he would have been across town. Had any other team offered more he would have been there too. I'll give you Wagner but again Pedro had nothing to do with it. The Mets signed Wagner in 2006 a year after Pedro was signed. He was signed because their closer the year before was Bradon Looper, enough said. Wagner had the Mets over a barrell, no other offer was even close in dollars or years to what the Mets gave him.

Martinez was on the down side of his career when the Mets got him. Only had double digit wins once in his four years and that was 2005 his first season when he won 15. In 2006 when the Mets won their division he only won 9 games. I find it hard to see how a guy in the prime of his career would want to go to the Mets because a decling Pedro Martinez is there.

Players don't go to teams to be cool, they go where thay can get paid and have a chance to win.

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01-23-2013, 07:44 PM
  #46
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You need to make up your mind what you are comparing. You originally said the Mets signing Pedro lead to other big signings, because "guys would want to get in on it", when it in fact did not. Now your are saying a veteran to lead the younger guys. Which is it?

The Delgado trade had nothing to do with Pedro. The Marlins were in the midst of one of their fire sales. Thsy gt ride of Delgado and his salary for two young guys. A few days later the Marlins unloaded Beckett and Loweel to the Red Sox for the same reason. Lets face it, Delgado was not really a big time player. Never hit better than .271 as a Met, had descent HR numbers , hit 38 twice in his Met tenure, but overall not a big time guy and Pedro had nothing to do with Delgado becoming a Met.

As for Wang's comments on FAN, he has made those comments before about how he is willing to spend but it never happens. Wang seems to think that having a new address will make FA's come here but it won't. No player has ever said they did not sign with the NYI because of the building they play in. That theroy has been shoved down our throats by ownership becasue it was a convient excuse, now they don't have that excuse anymore but I am sure they'll come up with somehting new. Players want to win, it's really plain and simple. There is no dedication to winning here so why would a big time name come here?
Jesus Christ man, you are getting pretty worked up over a meaningless comparison.

First of all, I never said anything about how signing Pedro lead to other signings. Even if I did, who gives a ****? You get the idea of the comparison. A big veteran signing could go a long way to making this team relevant. Pedro gave the Mets an identity. I don't think it's crazy to think a UFA signing could do the same for the Isles.

As far as Wang and the arena deal goes, it's not about the building. I never bought into that either. It's about the uncertainty of the Islanders' future. A free agent that comes here doesn't know if he's going to be living in NY or in Kansas City or somewhere else. Why would any sought-after player decide to go to a bottom-feeding team that might relocate a couple of years after they sign? That is what I think will make things different next offseason and the offseason's after.

To say flat out that no UFAs will come here just makes you come off as one of those pessimistic fans that people end up ignoring. "OH great... this guy again". We get it. You hate the Isles but you like to post about it on their message board. The fact that you are getting worked up over a Pedro Martinez comp. just makes it worse.

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01-23-2013, 08:49 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
I keep flip flopping on keeping Streit. There are times when his play is frustrating to watch, but can the isles weak blueline, really let him just walk?
The degree that he's slowed down in the last year, I'd flip him at the deadline for something decent and move on. He'd be fine in a place like Detroit, but him being the horse here I think has worn on him. The Isles actually have some attractive pieces expiring this year... I don't know. I'm usually not a "trade everything 4 PIX! How dare Snow not trade Gervais for a 7th rounder! FU!!" guy, but this season might be a good one to trade everything that's not nailed down and make the big commitment to the young core.

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01-23-2013, 10:11 PM
  #48
Hipster Doofus
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Perry would be amazing. We have very few top 6 right hand shots (okposo, strome, kabanov) up front and two are wingers. Perry is the best rw in the game IMO.

But if you want a dman (and Tavares' BFF) a Subban for Nino based offer would be a nice trade. RH shot on D to compliment Hamonic and hes extremely marketable.

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01-23-2013, 10:12 PM
  #49
IslesBeBack*
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Back the money truck up to Perry's house. Explain to him that him and Tavares will make sweet love together for the future of the Islanders in Brooklyn.

Perry resurrects fanbase. Isles are alive again.

I mean, really, what's 60 million to Wang right now? It's worth his time and investment to see that this Ilsanders team improves. He needs to get it over with already or this team will never take a real step forward.

Remember, Wang is still worth close to a billion dollars. A 60 million dollar investment over 8 years, with inflation and all, is not a single sweat beed off his back. All things considered, 60 million is probably what Wang takes in annually, with interest and stuff like that.

I doubt giving this guy a big contract would ruin his lifestyle.

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01-23-2013, 10:35 PM
  #50
bstash19
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to the dudes arguing about the relivnce of the pedro/mets comparison:

who cares.

the point is, we need a pied piper. someone to be the first to jump aboard. then as the image of the team changes as we move to brooklyn (well, i hope it does, at least) and things will be alot better.

..and then hopefully we wont have to overpay for anyone, or get 35+ players

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