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P.K. Subban Thread - 5.0 - The "Doughty Money Vs. Lowball Bridge" Edition

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01-23-2013, 05:50 PM
  #401
poetryinmotion
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
simple logic, 12 years old usually gets this : our current #1 (Markov) isnt a complete package since he doesnt have the physical thing going for him... so the other guy who has it and is a full package is by definition ahead of the guy not having the full package... he doesnt NEED to be, HE IS.

capish ?


that is unless he isnt really the "full package" (yet, we'll see in the future.
Uhm, that is not simple logic. AT. ALL. What that is is something you just made up.

Let's go back to the original argument shall we?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
If we trade Subban our #1 need becomes...

A two way #1 defenseman with a physical edge who is young and can grow with our current core.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
lots of #1 D do very well without being physical. They're just paired with some who hit that is all.
You're saying a #1 D (or just ANY D for that matter, because I have no idea why this would be limited to first pairings only) can afford to not be physical provided he is paired with a physical defenseman.

Quote:
Originally Posted by poetryinmotion View Post
Or he could be all of that and not NEED to be with a guy who NEEDS to be physical and a hitter?
I hope I don't need to explain this.

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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
and cost you 8 Mil a year...


OEL, Pietrangelo, Suter, Markov, Karlsson, Campbell, Edler, Yandle, Fowler, Letang are all doing fine without being physical much...

and they're all top pairing guys on P.O. (minus few exceptions) teams, except for Markov...
Here you are diverging from the original point. You're talking about cap hit for some unknown reason, then list me a few top pairing defenseman that lack physicality and say that they are doing fine without that aspect to their game... which was not what we were debating about at all.

Of ****ing course you can be a #1 defenseman without being physical, but you need to be paired with one in order to add that dimension to the duo. Subban doesn't need this because he is a complete player.

Capiche?

You don't have to be a complete defenseman in order to be a #1 D. So maybe you should go brush up on some 12 year old logic?


Last edited by poetryinmotion: 01-23-2013 at 05:55 PM. Reason: corrected my last sentence so it makes sense
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01-23-2013, 05:50 PM
  #402
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
That's the annoying reality with part of the fans and media in Montreal. We eat our young. We will often scrape the bottom of the barrel for anything that can be considered remotely negative about our young players. I suppose that's par for the course when considering it's a rather large fan base.
or elevate them to gods (remember hearing the Guy Guy Guy in Latendresse 1st pro game?)

wich is no better.

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01-23-2013, 05:52 PM
  #403
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
lots of #1 D do very well without being physical. They're just paired with some who hit that is all.
Like Markov and Subban?

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01-23-2013, 05:54 PM
  #404
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Originally Posted by poetryinmotion View Post
That sounds extremely tongue-in-cheek.
You may be right, and i hope you are, but it's the kind of comment you avoid in a place like Montreal if you don't want to create controversy unless it's Gionta's way to have fun with the press....

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01-23-2013, 05:55 PM
  #405
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
or elevate them to gods (remember hearing the Guy Guy Guy in Latendresse 1st pro game?)

wich is no better.
Yeah, that's obviously not a perfect solution either, and it's an interesting juxtaposition, but it's definitely better than cannibalism.

Undeserved support for our young players is better than trying to tear them down IMO.

Except that in this case, there's no valid reason to be tearing PK down. He's proven his worth.

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01-23-2013, 05:55 PM
  #406
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Originally Posted by Hockey Joe View Post
Like Markov and Subban?
Markov and Emelin
Subban and Gorges

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01-23-2013, 05:56 PM
  #407
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Originally Posted by poetryinmotion View Post

Here you are diverging from the original point. You're talking about cap hit for some unknown reason, then list me a few top pairing defenseman that lack physicality and say that they are doing fine without that aspect to their game... which was not what we were debating about at all.

Of ****ing course you can be a #1 defenseman without being physical, but you need to be paired with one in order to add that dimension to the duo. Subban doesn't need this because he is a complete player.

Capiche?

Being a #1 D and being a complete player are not mutually exclusive. So maybe you should go brush up on some 12 year old logic?
the original point was that if PK is gone we'll NEED a "full package" D, someone with all the tools on top of being physical.

my posts clearly show that you dont NEED it.


I did list a few already, and some of the best in history could be included in that list (See Lidstrom r Orr for example)

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01-23-2013, 06:01 PM
  #408
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What is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

There are what three RFA still not playing out of what 700 players? PK belongs on the ice in front of the fans who are paying his salary. I suppose I blame Meehan more than PK though.
I'm with you on this one regarding Meehan. Sure, I am aggravated with Subban now but I am 100% confident that Meehan is fueling this holdout.

Of course, Meehan has no loyalties to anyone other than whatever dead president is on his money. He could care less if he gets his fees from the Habs or any other NHL team.

Bad situation all around because of Meehan.

Who else does Meehan represent on the Habs?

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01-23-2013, 06:01 PM
  #409
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
the original point was that if PK is gone we'll NEED a "full package" D, someone with all the tools on top of being physical.

my posts clearly show that you dont NEED it.


I did list a few already, and some of the best in history could be included in that list (See Lidstrom r Orr for example)
But it's a LuXuRY to have one because his partner doesn't HAVE to have that dimension. THEREFORE, he is COMPATIBLE with more DEFENSEMEN.

I don't know how I can be more clear on this.

It's like you have the option between a complete package defenseman and one that's exactly the same minus physicality in a void, who are you taking?

My god why is this so hard.


Last edited by poetryinmotion: 01-23-2013 at 06:07 PM. Reason: forgetting words, im getting tired
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01-23-2013, 06:01 PM
  #410
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
A waste of time since you can't find anything that Gorges said about Subban that was negative about his personality, on or off ice play?

«Je ne suis pas sûr, a-t-il dit. On verra. C'est dur à comprendre... Le but du hockey, c'est de gagner en équipe. Si on a du succès, c'est à cause de l'équipe.

«Je ne voudrais pas être dans cette position. C'est certain qu'un joueur essaie toujours d'avoir la meilleure entente possible. Un gars dans sa situation n'a pas beaucoup de droits quant à la négociation, alors il doit dire oui à un contrat de transition, en attendant de mériter le droit de négocier à la hausse par la suite. Je pense que 95 % des joueurs sont déjà passés par là.»




How dare Gorges say such horrible things about PK...Clearly he doesn't like him.
Does it mean Gorges hates Subban? NO

Is it the kind of comment a veteran should make about a contract negociation that doen't concern him? Of the record maybe, on the record, it's sounds like he doesn't agree with the way Subban is acting... you don't see a problem with this, more power to you... it's the kind of comment i don't like.... he could have simply said, we miss PK, we would like more to have him with us than in a contract negociation. It's all complicated issues, i don't know all the facts.... bla bla bla....

This is not what were use to earring in the KGB Habs of the previous years, maybe it's the new way of the organisation to let player say whatever they feel like, and maybe there is nothing to it...... i'm not sold on that....

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01-23-2013, 06:02 PM
  #411
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
A waste of time since you can't find anything?
Even a blind squirrel could find something negative about Subban. I guess you never really tried.

Anyway, I'll help you out. Here's just one example. I don't know if you saw Martin discuss this live but here's a summary. Jacques Martin seems to think he's a bit of a prima dona.

http://montrealhockeytalk.com/blogs/...ght-on-subban/

another summary of what Martin said:

http://awinninghabit.com/2012/01/18/...otally-boring/

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01-23-2013, 06:03 PM
  #412
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I'm with you on this one regarding Meehan. Sure, I am aggravated with Subban now but I am 100% confident that Meehan is fueling this holdout.

Of course, Meehan has no loyalties to anyone other than whatever dead president is on his money. He could care less if he gets his fees from the Habs or any other NHL team.

Bad situation all around because of Meehan.

Who else does Meehan represent on the Habs?
Meehan represents Markov

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01-23-2013, 06:06 PM
  #413
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Even a blind squirrel could find something negative about Subban. I guess you never really tried.

Anyway, I'll help you out. Here's just one example. I don't know if you saw Martin discuss this live but here's a summary. Jacques Martin seems to think he's a bit of a prima dona.

http://montrealhockeytalk.com/blogs/...ght-on-subban/

another summary of what Martin said:

http://awinninghabit.com/2012/01/18/...otally-boring/
Martin is a dinosaur. Players like PK never even existed before he coached the Habs, so of course he will find him very eccentric. Even then, he didn't have a problem playing him 25 mins a night and throwing him in every situation. He's the one that made PK what he is.

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01-23-2013, 06:09 PM
  #414
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Martin is a dinosaur. Players like PK never even existed before he coached the Habs, so of course he will find him very eccentric. Even then, he didn't have a problem playing him 25 mins a night and throwing him in every situation. He's the one that made PK what he is.
Come one, that's just a ridiculous argument. Martin is an experienced coach and has seen his share of prima donas during the course of his long career.

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01-23-2013, 06:14 PM
  #415
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Come one, that's just a ridiculous argument. Martin is an experienced coach and has seen his share of prima donas during the course of his long career.
Maybe, but I doubt he's seen anything like PK before. Subban is a different horse.

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01-23-2013, 06:19 PM
  #416
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
the original point was that if PK is gone we'll NEED a "full package" D, someone with all the tools on top of being physical.

my posts clearly show that you dont NEED it.


I did list a few already, and some of the best in history could be included in that list (See Lidstrom r Orr for example)
Orr not physical

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01-23-2013, 06:20 PM
  #417
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Originally Posted by onebighockeyfan View Post
Even a blind squirrel could find something negative about Subban. I guess you never really tried.

Anyway, I'll help you out. Here's just one example. I don't know if you saw Martin discuss this live but here's a summary. Jacques Martin seems to think he's a bit of a prima dona.

http://montrealhockeytalk.com/blogs/...ght-on-subban/

another summary of what Martin said:

http://awinninghabit.com/2012/01/18/...otally-boring/


Now it's Martin.

Jeez, really scrapping the bottom of the barrel here.

First it was Cole, Gorges & Gionta, and now we have moved the goal posts again.

No one is saying that Subban is perfect, but the allegations that were put forth about present day Subban are different than what Martin saw when Subban was 20 or 21. He might have been a little too flamboyant for that dinosaur 3 years ago, but that doesn't mean Subban is a prima donna in present day. Martin was a storied coach, but it was also known he was out of his league towards the end of his stint in Montreal.

In your own article you quoted you can find this great quip:

Let Subban grow. Let him make mistakes. Let him play his game. In a few years, he will be great. If we trade him now, we will make a huge mistake. We had the same criticism of Carey Price as immature at age 22. They are young, and being thrown into situations where they are the integral cog of an NHL team in their second season.

2 years later, and all things seem to be going really well for Subban. His on ice contributions and team play are among the elite in the league, and his off ice activity has been nothing but exemplary.

2 years later and people are still talking about trading him for ridiculous reasons.

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01-23-2013, 06:21 PM
  #418
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Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
If we trade Subban our #1 need becomes...

A two way #1 defenseman with a physical edge who is young and can grow with our current core.

This is our main need even with Subban on the team.

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01-23-2013, 06:22 PM
  #419
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Maybe, but I doubt he's seen anything like PK before. Subban is a different horse.
A dfferent horse ? What do you mean ?

Just kiddin...

As long as Subban wilo think he is more important than the team, there will be no agreement.

The kid is full of himself.

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01-23-2013, 06:25 PM
  #420
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Now it's Martin.

Jeez, really scrapping the bottom of the barrel here.

First it was Cole, Gorges & Gionta, and now we have moved the goal posts again.

No one is saying that Subban is perfect, but the allegations that were put forth about present day Subban are different than what Martin saw when Subban was 21. He might have been a little too flamboyant for that dinosaur 3 years ago, but that doesn't mean Subban is a prima donna in present day. Martin was a storied coach, but it was also known he was out of his league towards the end of his stint in Montreal.

In your own article you quoted you can find this great quip:

Let Subban grow. Let him make mistakes. Let him play his game. In a few years, he will be great. If we trade him now, we will make a huge mistake. We had the same criticism of Carey Price as immature at age 22. They are young, and being thrown into situations where they are the integral cog of an NHL team in their second season.

2 years later, and all things seem to be going really well for Subban. His on ice contributions and team play are among the elite in the league, and his off ice activity has been nothing but exemplary.
You asked for an example. I gave you one. There are others. I won't waste my time since you seem to have issues with anything I post regardless of the source.

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01-23-2013, 06:29 PM
  #421
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Originally Posted by onebighockeyfan View Post
You asked for an example. I gave you one. There are others. I won't waste my time since you seem to have issues with anything I post regardless of the source.
You said Gorges said something negative about PK. He didn't.

Neither did Gionta.

Neither did Cole.

Martin said he was too flamboyant as a 20 year old.

You really haven't provided anything to back up your assumption that PK is a prima donna.

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01-23-2013, 06:29 PM
  #422
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That's the annoying reality with part of the fans and media in Montreal. We eat our young. We will often scrape the bottom of the barrel for anything that can be considered remotely negative about our young players. I suppose that's par for the course when considering it's a rather large fan base.
I disagree.

The biggest problem with part of the fans and media in Montreal is that we have seen mediocrity for so long that it is embraced.

Gauthier for example. Look at the support he got throughout his tenure as he ran this team into the ground.

Leblanc is another. As of right now, he does not have the mental toughness to be in the NHL but he is loved by the fans.

Eller is one more. With his experience, he should be making an impact instead of being benched.

Popular young players.......but with limited impact.....obtain hero status in Montreal by a segment of the fan base. And if that player is criticized or questioned, that segment of the fan base is the loudest in rebuttal.

This thread is a good example (although I do not think PK is mediocre........he simply has become a legend before he has had a chance to earn legendary status)

And with all that said, I am ready for this standoff to be settled and have PK back on the ice.

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01-23-2013, 06:31 PM
  #423
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If we trade Subban.. this is what the NHL Draft Threads will look like for the next decade

"We need a physical defenseman with a big shot who can carry the puck into the offensive zone and has a great first pass!"

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01-23-2013, 06:32 PM
  #424
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You said Gorges said something negative about PK. He didn't.

Neither did Gionta.

Neither did Cole.

Martin said he was too flamboyant as a 20 year old.

You really haven't provided anything to back up your assumption that PK is a prima donna.
read the martin thing and tell me this does not fit with the definition of a prima dona. Do you actually know what prima dona means? Look it up if you don't. I've had it with you.


Last edited by onebighockeyfan: 01-23-2013 at 06:33 PM. Reason: typo
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01-23-2013, 06:35 PM
  #425
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read the martin thing and tell me this does not fit with the definition of a prima dona. Do you actually know what prima dona means? Look it up if you don't. I've had it with you.
Yes, I know what it means. And as a 20 year old it very well may have been true. We all know Martin is old school in his coaching style/mentality, so I take it with a grain of salt when comparing it with 23 year old Subban.

But again, you quoted that many players had spoken negatively about Subban, and they haven't. You really grasped at straws throughout this whole debate.

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