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**The Official Metal Thread III**

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Old
01-11-2013, 12:48 PM
  #551
Mystlyfe
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How in hell do you think that Midnight and Chapel aren't metal bands? It's 21st century Motorhead worship, taken to the extreme and filtered through the lens of Venom and 1st wave black metal. Black/speed metal is one of the most popular movements in underground metal, with Midnight serving as the bannermen. If that's not metal, I don't know what is.

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01-11-2013, 03:23 PM
  #552
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Originally Posted by Mystlyfe View Post
How in hell do you think that Midnight and Chapel aren't metal bands? It's 21st century Motorhead worship, taken to the extreme and filtered through the lens of Venom and 1st wave black metal. Black/speed metal is one of the most popular movements in underground metal, with Midnight serving as the bannermen. If that's not metal, I don't know what is.
It's borderline metal but closer to rock, like Motorhead. Full-fledged metal has to be extreme and removed from the foundations of blues and rock. Exodus and early Metallica are like metal but near the borderline of rock, and Mercyful Fate and Iron Maiden are rock but near the borderline of metal.

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01-11-2013, 03:30 PM
  #553
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Cant go wrong with either of them, they are both classics. I love their reunion album Macabe Eternal too.
No you cant really go wrong with Autopsy.. except for **** fun

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01-11-2013, 04:11 PM
  #554
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Originally Posted by Hippasus View Post
It's borderline metal but closer to rock, like Motorhead. Full-fledged metal has to be extreme and removed from the foundations of blues and rock. Exodus and early Metallica are like metal but near the borderline of rock, and Mercyful Fate and Iron Maiden are rock but near the borderline of metal.
Did you seriously just say that Iron Maiden and Mercyful Fate aren't metal?

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01-11-2013, 05:04 PM
  #555
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Did you seriously just say that Iron Maiden and Mercyful Fate aren't metal?
Yeah. It's my opinion. What most people call extreme metal (including doom metal in the vein of Winter, and grindcore) is what I call metal and a lot of what other people would consider old school heavy metal is slightly closer to rock in my opinion. I think of it like Iron Maiden is closer to King Crimson than Bathory. Mercyful Fate is slightly closer to the borderline of metal than Iron Maiden is.

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01-11-2013, 06:47 PM
  #556
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Genres are influenced by subjective qualities, but there's a certain point where objective qualities set in. Wagner's compositions aren't hip-hop just because "in my opinion" they're closer to Jay-Z than Bach*. A lot of extreme metal is closer to hardcore punk than it is to Bathory as well. Does that mean it's not metal, either? Just because something takes influence from another genre, doesn't mean it's not metal. Particularly if that category is as broad as "rock," given that all of metal is just a sub-genre of rock.

Iron Maiden is metal.


*In case it wasn't obvious, I don't actually hold that opinion. Just demonstrating a point.

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01-11-2013, 07:03 PM
  #557
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Yeah. It's my opinion. What most people call extreme metal (including doom metal in the vein of Winter, and grindcore) is what I call metal and a lot of what other people would consider old school heavy metal is slightly closer to rock in my opinion. I think of it like Iron Maiden is closer to King Crimson than Bathory. Mercyful Fate is slightly closer to the borderline of metal than Iron Maiden is.


Your opinion is as worthless as a Greek bank account. The defining characteristics of Metal do not change over time, the sounds change and evolve, but the fundamentals don't change. Black Sabbath was Metal in 1970 and they remain Metal now, regardless of what bands have followed in their footsteps sound like.

What you're saying is that Louis Armstrong isn't jazz, but John Zorn is. Or Robert Johnson isn't blues but SRV is.

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01-11-2013, 07:28 PM
  #558
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Your opinion is as worthless as a Greek bank account. The defining characteristics of Metal do not change over time, the sounds change and evolve, but the fundamentals don't change. Black Sabbath was Metal in 1970 and they remain Metal now, regardless of what bands have followed in their footsteps sound like.

What you're saying is that Louis Armstrong isn't jazz, but John Zorn is. Or Robert Johnson isn't blues but SRV is.
The definition of metal does change, when I was a kid growing up Aerosmith and Led Zeppelin, etc were called heavy metal.

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01-11-2013, 07:57 PM
  #559
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I think saying the term 'extreme metal' is backhand worthy.

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01-11-2013, 10:15 PM
  #560
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None of these tracks are metal IMO.
Thank you for notifying me in advance to not pay attention to your posts.

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The definition of metal does change, when I was a kid growing up Aerosmith and Led Zeppelin, etc were called heavy metal.
I don't really think we need to give credibility to bands the media labeled as metal just because the media labeled them as such. They clearly have nothing to do with it, outside of LZ being influential to it.

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I think saying the term 'extreme metal' is backhand worthy.
I wouldn't say so because it encompasses black, death, and some forms of thrash and makes a pretty easy way to differentiate those styles from more traditional forms of metal such as doom, heavy, etc.


Last edited by Mort Divine: 01-11-2013 at 10:20 PM.
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Old
01-11-2013, 10:19 PM
  #561
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Originally Posted by Mystlyfe View Post
Genres are influenced by subjective qualities, but there's a certain point where objective qualities set in. Wagner's compositions aren't hip-hop just because "in my opinion" they're closer to Jay-Z than Bach*. A lot of extreme metal is closer to hardcore punk than it is to Bathory as well. Does that mean it's not metal, either? Just because something takes influence from another genre, doesn't mean it's not metal. Particularly if that category is as broad as "rock," given that all of metal is just a sub-genre of rock.

Iron Maiden is metal.


*In case it wasn't obvious, I don't actually hold that opinion. Just demonstrating a point.
Yeah that's a good point--grind could be closer to punk than metal, therefore not truly metal. I would agree with that. Extreme Noise Terror for instance are punk and not really metal at all, although they were one of the preludes to grind.

Just to be clear, I don't think what I'm saying is just subjective. Shades of grey can be objective too. Even if I don't have objective knowledge about these grey matters. They objectively exist, if that makes sense.

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Your opinion is as worthless as a Greek bank account. The defining characteristics of Metal do not change over time, the sounds change and evolve, but the fundamentals don't change. Black Sabbath was Metal in 1970 and they remain Metal now, regardless of what bands have followed in their footsteps sound like.

What you're saying is that Louis Armstrong isn't jazz, but John Zorn is. Or Robert Johnson isn't blues but SRV is.
Jazz came from blues (and other things too probably). Like Behn said, I think these perceptions can change over time. Louis Armstrong could probably be considered to have strong elements of something like swing, big band, bop, ragtime, etc. He was a transitional figure towards jazz from blues like Black Sabbath was from rock to metal.

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I think saying the term 'extreme metal' is backhand worthy.
That's part of the reason why I'm saying that black metal, death metal, and grindcore, etc. are metal. I dislike the term extreme metal too. True metal is based on a new set of works and principles following Venom, Hellhammer, and all the rest.

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Old
01-11-2013, 10:30 PM
  #562
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I don't really think we need to give credibility to bands the media labeled as metal just because the media labeled them as such. They clearly have nothing to do with it, outside of LZ being influential to it.
It wasnt just the media, the bands that are now called classic rock like Zeppelin, Aerosmith, Van Halen etc were referred to as heavy metal back when I was in grade / high school in the 70's. It was common place.

Noone would remotely call them metal now. The definition of metal has long since changed. Even the catchphrase now is metal instead of heavy metal.

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01-11-2013, 10:44 PM
  #563
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I'm gonna post a song that I already posted before.


The band calls this extreme metal. YouTube description says it's Prog Deth Metal, but I think it's more groove metal than anything.

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01-11-2013, 10:54 PM
  #564
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I'd say garbage would suffice.

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Old
01-14-2013, 09:42 AM
  #565
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hippasus View Post
It's borderline metal but closer to rock, like Motorhead. Full-fledged metal has to be extreme and removed from the foundations of blues and rock. Exodus and early Metallica are like metal but near the borderline of rock, and Mercyful Fate and Iron Maiden are rock but near the borderline of metal.
oh my. Well, this isn't the worst I've seen, one Russian 15yo once told me that Cannibal Corpse are too light and slow to be death metal.






Last edited by Acallabeth: 01-14-2013 at 09:47 AM.
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Old
01-19-2013, 05:01 PM
  #566
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oh my. Well, this isn't the worst I've seen, one Russian 15yo once told me that Cannibal Corpse are too light and slow to be death metal.




Gotta love Summoning.

I posting in this origins of 'extreme' metal thread before and I was thinking recently, at least as far as black metal goes. Dead Can Dance circa 1985 must have had some influence. One can hear a Wagnerian feel across, say Spleen and Ideal, and the works of Summoning and some of the more epic / atmospheric black metal.

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Old
01-21-2013, 04:36 PM
  #567
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DCD is a huge influence on BM bands, especially those who go for a more ambient/minimalist style.

Speaking of BM, here's a short film that's part of the Sundance festival this year.



Last edited by cynicism: 01-21-2013 at 04:37 PM. Reason: fix link
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Old
01-21-2013, 11:59 PM
  #568
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I think saying the term 'extreme metal' is backhand worthy.
I guess it's okay when you want to separate Death, Black, Doom, etc. from Alternative, Groove, and the likes, but it's still pretty stupid.

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Old
01-22-2013, 12:22 AM
  #569
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Riverside released their new album today! It is pretty damn sick, but there are some quite boring songs as well. Loving this one and Escalator Shrine. Actually I love the whole concept of the album, people falling away from their personality due to fame, money, technology, etc. And becoming just another blank space with no emotions or reality. Definitely sounds more 70s prog than some of their earlier work, which was more dark and the concept's were of mental disorders.

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Old
01-23-2013, 09:26 AM
  #570
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Just ran across the band Ancient Bards.



Love that symphonic sound!

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01-23-2013, 05:25 PM
  #571
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Summoning was mentioned earlier so I thought I'd plug Caladan Brood. From Salt Lake City, play a similar style and pay homage to Steven Erikson's EPIC Malazan Book of the Fallen series. If you're a fan of fantasy literature and haven't checked out this series, then stop your grinnin' and drop your linen and get thee to a bookstore. This guy is an incredbile writer, fantasy or not.




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01-23-2013, 06:42 PM
  #572
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I guess it's okay when you want to separate Death, Black, Doom, etc. from Alternative, Groove, and the likes, but it's still pretty stupid.
umm?

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01-23-2013, 07:10 PM
  #573
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umm?
I think you guys are talking about different things. The poster is talking about so-called alternative metal, not alternative music.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._metal_artists

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01-23-2013, 08:09 PM
  #574
Mort Divine
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I think you guys are talking about different things. The poster is talking about so-called alternative metal, not alternative music.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._metal_artists
Alternative metal isn't a real style though, and 90% of that list isn't even metal anyways so...

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01-23-2013, 08:53 PM
  #575
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Alternative metal isn't a real style though, and 90% of that list isn't even metal anyways so...
Yeah, it looks like a grab bag of more mainstream acts with a more intense edge. I counted these metal bands on there: Korn, Pantera, Sentenced, Sepultura, and Soilent Green. Alternative music in general means next to nothing.

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