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P.K. Subban Thread - 5.0 - The "Doughty Money Vs. Lowball Bridge" Edition

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01-23-2013, 08:20 PM
  #551
Lafleurs Guy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
This.

And I also don't see a problem with having faith that Subban gets better and puts up the offense eventually. His career to date has shown a steep progression curve, no reason to expect it to stop. We know the skills he has, I don't see how anybody looks at him and thinks he's done offensively, that's all you're going to get. I believe he'll grow, and I believe it strongly enough that I'd have no problems putting it in a contract.

Something that has a $6M-ish cap hit can be back-loaded to account for this *expected* progression. I'm sticking with my $50M/8yr offer, again. $5-5-6-6-7-7-7-7M. 5 years from now, nobody will blink at $7M for a #1 defenseman who plays great in his own zone, hits like a truck, scores 60 points, and sells more jerseys than any defenseman in Habs history. A $6.25M cap hit doesn't really hurt us too much in the meantime vs. his present value of $5M, and it becomes a minor bargain later on. All while keeping him below Carey Price's $6.5M cap hit.

Those are our two superstars, so far. Those aren't horrible cap hits for those guys on super-long-term deals. And if Galchenyuk is a 1st line player for us off his ELC, I'm more than happy to see him getting $6M too.

Obviously there are some insurance issues and risk factors associated with handing out a big contract worth $50M over a lot of years. But hey, welcome to the NHL. Teams with far weaker finances than ours are managing it and taking the risks. I don't see why the Habs would choose to be disadvantaged on that score, we the fans are paying the big bucks and making this team one of the biggest revenue teams in the league, put it to work.
I get your logic and it definitely makes sense. But man, it's not a great precident to set for the future. And quite frankly PK hasn't earned it yet.

Then again we may have no choice...
Quote:
Originally Posted by HABsurde View Post
Chelios had to be traded, Savard did not have much choice (is what i heard long time ago,)

Then again Habs won a Stanley cup with Savard in Montreal, how many Chelios won in Chicago? yeah, that's right....
Chelios didn't have to be traded at all. Totally stupid move.
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
It's the inevitable only alternative. You can't get zero value out of the asset by making him sit forever. And he's not going to show you anything that changes the evaluations while he sits. So of course, if things drag on with no contract, that's the only other place it can go.

Hopefully there is a way out before that happens, however. #fireBergevin
It's not the only alternative. We can make him sit.
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
Can't wait to go through this with Galchenyuk if he becomes what we hope in the summer of 2015 or 2016. Going to be AWESOME.

Or is MB going to bend his petty philosophy for someone he drafted?

Stubbs article: http://www.montrealgazette.com/sport...837/story.html
T
That's the problem with caving. If you show that you'll back down, you're toast. That being said we're being extremely unreasonable if we're offering 3 mil a year.
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Meehan is a snake but he's far more familiar with the market rates than Bergevin is. Why would he possibly ask for something he won't get and refuse to negotiate?
Because that's how he works. He causes a huge stink to get the most he can out of the team. He doesn't care what it does to the player's reputation as long as he maximizes the cash. I hate this guy.

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01-23-2013, 08:20 PM
  #552
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Meehan is a snake but he's far more familiar with the market rates than Bergevin is. Why would he possibly ask for something he won't get and refuse to negotiate?
this is a stupid comment, why the helle would Meehan more familiar with the market rate than Bergevin, Bergevin wasn't GM, but he asn't live in a monestry for the last 10 years... he knows stuff.... please.....

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01-23-2013, 08:23 PM
  #553
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If we end up trading Subban, Bergervin should be fired on the spot.

Should have hired McGuire.

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01-23-2013, 08:23 PM
  #554
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Bergevin - along with Therrien - appreciate a strong work ethic and a general good attitude. When he walks into negociations with a young kid who hasn't even been training yet, and hears the numbers he's asking for without thinking about taking any less, he does not see that attitude he so much desires. He wants his guys to think of the team first and he doesn't see that at all when he hears the terms being thrown around from Subban and Meehan.

All it takes is for Subban to say, "You know what? Give me that bridge contract. I just want to play." Then in 2 years, Bergevin will be more than happy to give a larger contract to a Subban that is a bit older, a bit more mature, and has shown he was willing to give back to the team before taking a lot of money.

That's why I believe Bergevin is not budging. If I'm correct, I cannot fault him at all.

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01-23-2013, 08:23 PM
  #555
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Originally Posted by HABsurde View Post
this is a stupid comment, why the helle would Meehan more familiar with the market rate than Bergevin, Bergevin wasn't GM, but he asn't live in a monestry for the last 10 years... he knows stuff.... please.....
He isn't. But I doubt he would be asking for 7 mil in Subban's case. The small profit margin he would make as opposed to signing a 5.5-6M deal would be minimal and could lead to deteriorated relations.

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01-23-2013, 08:24 PM
  #556
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
IChelios didn't have to be traded at all. Totally stupid move.
Why was he traded? Because Denis Savard was in such high value or because, Chelios put himself in a situation were he has to be traded.... rumors are not always true, but 20 years rumors that stick may have some value...

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01-23-2013, 08:24 PM
  #557
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Originally Posted by HABsurde View Post
it's a new CBA that was implement 2 weeks ago, maybe we see it as just a money thing... maybe in the long run giving PK 4 millions per for 2 years or 6 per for 6 or 7 years is not so good.... since the lock out ended how many big deals as been given?
That's fair. But if I'm Subban I'm pissed that my GM works on Max's deal ahead of mine. Why no discussion before the lockout? That's what bothers me most. PK was the last negotiation and it just started a few weeks ago.

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01-23-2013, 08:25 PM
  #558
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I am not impressed with a GM who tried to make a point by sacrifying his best player.
How do you know that is what he is doing?

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01-23-2013, 08:25 PM
  #559
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
If we end up trading Subban, Bergervin should be fired on the spot.

Should have hired McGuire.
Pee Air would have traded Subban to move up 2 spots in the draft. I don't think anyone should hire that clown.

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01-23-2013, 08:25 PM
  #560
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Originally Posted by CrimsonSkorpion View Post
Bergevin - along with Therrien - appreciate a strong work ethic and a general good attitude. When he walks into negociations with a young kid who hasn't even been training yet, and hears the numbers he's asking for without thinking about taking any less, he does not see that attitude he so much desires. He wants his guys to think of the team first and he doesn't see that at all when he hears the terms being thrown around from Subban and Meehan.

All it takes is for Subban to say, "You know what? Give me that bridge contract. I just want to play." Then in 2 years, Bergevin will be more than happy to give a larger contract to a Subban that is a bit older, a bit more mature, and has shown he was willing to give back to the team before taking a lot of money.

That's why I believe Bergevin is not budging. If I'm correct, I cannot fault him at all.
Crimson, your the man!!!

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01-23-2013, 08:26 PM
  #561
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Meehan is a snake but he's far more familiar with the market rates than Bergevin is. Why would he possibly ask for something he won't get and refuse to negotiate?
I was just making a point regarding how that poster was so quick to lay blame on Bergevin when he found out there was an almost $3 million difference between the two sides.

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01-23-2013, 08:26 PM
  #562
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
That's fair. But if I'm Subban I'm pissed that my GM works on Max's deal ahead of mine. Why no discussion before the lockout? That's what bothers me most. PK was the last negotiation and it just started a few weeks ago.
they did discuss all summer i'm sure, but they could'nt during the lock out....

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01-23-2013, 08:27 PM
  #563
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Originally Posted by HABsurde View Post
Why was he traded? Because Denis Savard was in such high value or because, Chelios put himself in a situation were he has to be traded.... rumors are not always true, but 20 years rumors that stick may have some value...
I can't remember the exact story but I think he embarrassed Ronald Corey somehow and Corey was a lot like Pierre Gauthier in that it was all about image over substance. Chelios was a bit of a wildman but he certainly didn't need to be traded.

Same with the Roy situation, Corey was embarrassed so they dealt Roy. It is had been somebody with some common sense he would've smoothed things over but that didn't happen. It became a matter of pride.

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01-23-2013, 08:27 PM
  #564
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
If we end up trading Subban, Bergervin should be fired on the spot.

Should have hired McGuire.
Without knowing what Bergevin might get in return you have already formed an opinion.

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01-23-2013, 08:27 PM
  #565
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
If we end up trading Subban, Bergervin should be fired on the spot.

Should have hired McGuire.
Everybody is tradeable. Always depends who you get in return. Problem is that in that case, if we trade Subban we will SURELY not get the best we could have in any other circumstances. Which THEN say that we shouldn't trade him.

As far as McGuire is concerned, it would have really been interesting. Still, "interesting" doesn't always mean "positive". He talks so much about so much stuff that frankly, I would not have been surprised if he finally wasn't able to do as much as we thought he would.

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01-23-2013, 08:28 PM
  #566
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Originally Posted by CrimsonSkorpion View Post
Bergevin - along with Therrien - appreciate a strong work ethic and a general good attitude. When he walks into negociations with a young kid who hasn't even been training yet, and hears the numbers he's asking for without thinking about taking any less, he does not see that attitude he so much desires. He wants his guys to think of the team first and he doesn't see that at all when he hears the terms being thrown around from Subban and Meehan.

All it takes is for Subban to say, "You know what? Give me that bridge contract. I just want to play." Then in 2 years, Bergevin will be more than happy to give a larger contract to a Subban that is a bit older, a bit more mature, and has shown he was willing to give back to the team before taking a lot of money.

That's why I believe Bergevin is not budging. If I'm correct, I cannot fault him at all.
My belief as well.

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01-23-2013, 08:28 PM
  #567
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
Can't wait to go through this with Galchenyuk if he becomes what we hope in the summer of 2015 or 2016. Going to be AWESOME.

Or is MB going to bend his petty philosophy for someone he drafted?

Stubbs article: http://www.montrealgazette.com/sport...837/story.html
Not so much in here really. Just PK saying he wants to be paid what he thinks he is worth. Clearly if the two sides are about 3 million appart, there's some evaluation. Not sure he's that sincere about playing in Montreal, the current situation is inconsistent with that. Nice PR stunt with though.

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01-23-2013, 08:29 PM
  #568
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Originally Posted by CrimsonSkorpion View Post
Bergevin - along with Therrien - appreciate a strong work ethic and a general good attitude. When he walks into negociations with a young kid who hasn't even been training yet, and hears the numbers he's asking for without thinking about taking any less, he does not see that attitude he so much desires. He wants his guys to think of the team first and he doesn't see that at all when he hears the terms being thrown around from Subban and Meehan.

All it takes is for Subban to say, "You know what? Give me that bridge contract. I just want to play." Then in 2 years, Bergevin will be more than happy to give a larger contract to a Subban that is a bit older, a bit more mature, and has shown he was willing to give back to the team before taking a lot of money.

That's why I believe Bergevin is not budging. If I'm correct, I cannot fault him at all.
Stop. PK has been training just as much as any other player this offseason. Conditioning is NEVER an issue for PK. He's a very hard worker so if Therrien and Bergevin think PK's work ethic and attitude need to be upgraded then they are both fools.

As far as giving back. The team dumped a rookie into a tough position where he had to be the guy for 2 years. He was hunted by every team and the previous administration did nothing to protect him. Then you have the audacity to say he should "give back" when he gets a lowball offer? C'mon man.

I still don't get the maturity issue. He's involved in a lot of programs that help people. He helped Laraque in Haiti. Where were the other Habs? He's an exuberant guy and some don't know how to handle it. I think as a man he's very mature. He just may not be up to the NHL's archaic standards with how a young player is supposed to act.

In 2 years time I can see the same "maturity" complaint. That will follow him for the rest of his career.

It's silly.

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01-23-2013, 08:30 PM
  #569
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrimsonSkorpion View Post
Bergevin - along with Therrien - appreciate a strong work ethic and a general good attitude. When he walks into negociations with a young kid who hasn't even been training yet, and hears the numbers he's asking for without thinking about taking any less, he does not see that attitude he so much desires. He wants his guys to think of the team first and he doesn't see that at all when he hears the terms being thrown around from Subban and Meehan.

All it takes is for Subban to say, "You know what? Give me that bridge contract. I just want to play." Then in 2 years, Bergevin will be more than happy to give a larger contract to a Subban that is a bit older, a bit more mature, and has shown he was willing to give back to the team before taking a lot of money.

That's why I believe Bergevin is not budging. If I'm correct, I cannot fault him at all.
Subban is in unbelievable shape and has been training all summer and through the lockout.

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01-23-2013, 08:30 PM
  #570
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I can't remember the exact story but I think he embarrassed Ronald Corey somehow and Corey was a lot like Pierre Gauthier in that it was all about image over substance. Chelios was a bit of a wildman but he certainly didn't need to be traded.

Same with the Roy situation, Corey was embarrassed so they dealt Roy. It is had been somebody with some common sense he would've smoothed things over but that didn't happen. It became a matter of pride.
Yeah the rumor is en embarrassed Ronald Corey, it's the way he did that was a big NO-NO (If you believe the rumor

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01-23-2013, 08:31 PM
  #571
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Im starting to wonder if Subban means it when he says he wants to play his career in Mtl. You don't holdout like that because you don't like a bridge contract.

Also, every player's goal should be to win the SC, and when you holdout like that, you are not helping the team get to that goal.

He's a good player, fun to watch on and off the ice, I would be crushed if we trade him

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01-23-2013, 08:32 PM
  #572
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Its sad.

Subban should have been on the team picture and Subban should have been in the game opener.

I think, nobody in his right mind, would want to trade him. And Bergevin probably doesnt want to make 'that hell of a move' in his first NHL trade as a GM. And he wont.

-But on one side, you have a new GM that doesnt want to look he can get walk on and ****. And at this point in time, if he agrees, he lost.

-On the other, one greedy and experienced agent, that do his job ****ing well.

The only thing that could fix this ****, is if both parties put water in their wines and accept a bit more/little than what they expect.
If he could trade Kaberle it would free up some cap space to sign PK and it would be "a hell of a move" for a first NHL trade

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01-23-2013, 08:33 PM
  #573
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Im starting to wonder if Subban means it when he says he wants to play his career in Mtl. You don't holdout like that because you don't like a bridge contract.

Also, every player's goal should be to win the SC, and when you holdout like that, you are not helping the team get to that goal.

He's a good player, fun to watch on and off the ice, I would be crushed if we trade him
I think you have a point Viggo !

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01-23-2013, 08:34 PM
  #574
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So it comes down to this:

The Habs and Subban are in agreement on comparables and the money value of the contract.

The Habs want to preserve their policy of players signing a bridge contract before their full value contract.

Subban thinks his case deserves special treatment. Sounds like Subban knows what he wants.

So, does the damage caused by making an exception to policy outweigh the impact of losing Subban?

I think the scales tip in favour of PK. Time for the Habs to be practical and less dogmatic.

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01-23-2013, 08:34 PM
  #575
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Yeah the rumor is en embarrassed Ronald Corey, it's the way he did that was a big NO-NO (If you believe the rumor
Corey's wife? I'm pretty sure that's made up.

Chelios was a wild man though. Rumours of him having a bbq and getting naked, that kind of stuff. Remember, we're talking about a guy who ordered the trade of Guy Carbonneau because he flipped off a reporter.

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