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P.K. Subban Thread - 5.0 - The "Doughty Money Vs. Lowball Bridge" Edition

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01-23-2013, 09:05 PM
  #626
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Has anyone seen Stubbs interview with Subban? http://www.montrealgazette.com/sport...837/story.html
It was posted a few pages ago by Marc The Habs Fan.

I really don't understand how you can read this and just dismiss it.

For once, in like forever, we have the potential of a huge star, that is extremely vocal about wanting to stay here, and yet some want to move him. For what reason exactly?? That's still unknown..

It's a damn shame.

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01-23-2013, 09:07 PM
  #627
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post

After that, Carbo adds that while Bergevin was in Chicago, they had the same politics. Oh really? Kane, Toews, Bolland, Hjalmarsson all signed 4-5 year deals after their ELC. Ya, they really had a strong policy of bridge contracts..
^
To be accurate Doug Wilson screwed the Hawks with Hammer via offer sheet (Though Hawks were offering longterm deal for him)

Hawks viewpoint under both Tallon and Bowman is to select a group of players as your core players and lock them up decent number of years

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01-23-2013, 09:10 PM
  #628
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Here it comes!! The RDS Antichambre smear campaign against PK Subban!

Bunch of greasebags!

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01-23-2013, 09:10 PM
  #629
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I am not sure why I find it surprising, but the lack of objectivity when it comes to Subban is amazing.

To those who worship him, he can do no wrong. To those who don't, he can do very little right.

And there seems to be very little middle ground. Amazing.

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01-23-2013, 09:11 PM
  #630
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Exactly how has he driven the value of his asset down?

There is a big difference between evaluating talent and offering a fair value for that talent. Bergevin clearly knows what kind of a talent he has here... but the fact is Subban has no leverage unless someone gives him an offer sheet.

What is funny is that so many posters cry about the ridiculous contracts that are handed out but as soon as there is a stalemate in negotiations with one of our players, they want him to cave in.
How can Bergevin tell another GM that he is trading this kid because he wants more than a 2year deal worth about 5M and then ask that GM for a huge return?
Bergevin put himself in a bad spot if it comes down to a trade. The only good thing to hope for is that other GMs would outbid one another like crazy for him.

But if you got GMs outbidding line crazy for him, take a step back and ask yourself ''why are these guys going nuts over him? Once you get that answer (because he's that good), ask yourself, why am I trading him again??''...

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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
All the crap we've been going through ever since the Houle days with incompetent GM after incompetent GM... I don't think I can stand another retard in the GM chair. If Subban is dealt for anything less than an equal value player, this could be the straw for me after 20 years.
I feel the same. The only possibility is if we get a huge return. But if it comes down to Bergevin being too stubborn to budge and actually moves PK, I doubt he'll be good at evaluating other talent. So the return will likely be nowhere as good as PK.

If that's the case, I am not sure I'll be able to endure such incompetence.

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01-23-2013, 09:12 PM
  #631
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Originally Posted by CrimsonSkorpion View Post
All it takes is for Subban to say, "You know what? Give me that bridge contract. I just want to play." Then in 2 years, Bergevin will be more than happy to give a larger contract to a Subban that is a bit older, a bit more mature, and has shown he was willing to give back to the team before taking a lot of money.

That's why I believe Bergevin is not budging. If I'm correct, I cannot fault him at all.
Agreed.

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In this hypothetical scenario, GMMB believes Subban is asking for too much money and/or term, but is willing to trade him for a player signed to a 7.857mil cap hit through the age of 40? SWeber is the better player right now, but I would not be a fan of that trade.
Shea Weber is soooo much better than PK though.. His contract will be tradeable later on and I'd expect the cap to be super-inflated by the time he isn't worth that money anyways (i.e. 7+ years from now).

I'd jump for joy if we made that trade.

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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
As it has been broken down countless times already, Subban's peers - guys like Myers, Karlsson and Doughty have already recieved their long term contracts.
These are Norris-type defenseman on their ELCs. Subban shouldn't be in the same sentence as Karlsson and Doughty. Myers is a great d-man as well but I think he's overpaid at the moment, not interested in overpaying Subban based on potential either.

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The Habs need Subban more than he needs them.
LOL

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01-23-2013, 09:14 PM
  #632
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How does Carbonneau know though?

Unless Meehan purposely leaked it, or the Habs organization has rather big holes in it. In which case, I am disappointed. I was hoping the Bergevin era would be the end of the media running the show.

I don't get why Meehan would leak it either, it doesn't strength his client's position, so he would be effectively working against Subban.

Something stinks.

Or maybe... Carbonneau is a ninja, and he snuck inside PK's apartment in Toronto to get the inside scoop.

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01-23-2013, 09:16 PM
  #633
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Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
LOL
Subban will hit payday one way or the other, Habs or elsewhere.

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01-23-2013, 09:16 PM
  #634
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Originally Posted by HomaridII View Post
I am not sure why I find it surprising, but the lack of objectivity when it comes to Subban is amazing.

To those who worship him, he can do no wrong. To those who don't, he can do very little right.

And there seems to be very little middle ground. Amazing.
Subban is far from a saint. I didn't like how he was everywhere in the media during the lockout while some of his teammates were losing money. I'd have rather have seen him play in Europe to challenge himself. I certainly don't think he's worth 7M long term.

I just don't like this "shut up and take a bridge contract" mentality like Subban has proven nothing. He's not Eller, he's not "potential". He's a first pairing defender with potential to be even more. He deserves to get paid as a first pairing defender.

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01-23-2013, 09:17 PM
  #635
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I hope that Molson and Co knew about that Bergevin obsession and his bridge contracts. I know that if I would have been the Pres and he would have told me about that....unless he'd change his opinion, he would NOT have been my pick solely because of that.

You have a vision, you trust your vision and sign your most valuable players in each of your positions. Price, MaxPac, Subban and soon Galchenyuk. You give tons of years...you try to save on the money. NO ****ING BRIDGE CONTRACTS FOR THEM. We did it for Price and MaxPac, so be it. But Subban? He showed more than what Price and MaxPac did. And Galchenyuk will really have to go throughout a bridge? Seriously?

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01-23-2013, 09:17 PM
  #636
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Has anyone seen Stubbs interview with Subban? http://www.montrealgazette.com/sport...837/story.html
Sounds reasonable. Wish we knew what the numbers were.

Still can't believe the guy's not signed yet.

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01-23-2013, 09:18 PM
  #637
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
I hope that Molson and Co knew about that Bergevin obsession and his bridge contracts. I know that if I would have been the Pres and he would have told me about that....unless he'd change his opinion, he would NOT have been my pick solely because of that.

You have a vision, you trust your vision and sign your most valuable players in each of your positions. Price, MaxPac, Subban and soon Galchenyuk. You give tons of years...you try to save on the money. NO ****ING BRIDGE CONTRACTS FOR THEM.
I'm with you man... bridge contracts are insulting to talent like PK and Galchenyuk. Price is an exception because he plays goaltender and those tend to develop slower. Pacioretty isn't in their league, imo.

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01-23-2013, 09:19 PM
  #638
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
So it comes down to this:

The Habs and Subban are in agreement on comparables and the money value of the contract.

The Habs want to preserve their policy of players signing a bridge contract before their full value contract.

Subban thinks his case deserves special treatment. Sounds like Subban knows what he wants.

So, does the damage caused by making an exception to policy outweigh the impact of losing Subban?

I think the scales tip in favour of PK. Time for the Habs to be practical and less dogmatic.
If you make an exception to policy for one player then there is no policy. It's team first, not individuals.
As for a trade I think it would be very difficult to get equal value in this situation as other teams know the spot Bergevin is in, besides, we always overhype Habs players, check out the trades forum.

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01-23-2013, 09:21 PM
  #639
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Originally Posted by HomaridII View Post
I am not sure why I find it surprising, but the lack of objectivity when it comes to Subban is amazing.

To those who worship him, he can do no wrong. To those who don't, he can do very little right.

And there seems to be very little middle ground. Amazing.
Actually, nobody worships him or hates him. I think both sides are just caught in this ''I'm right so I'll exaggerate my point in order to discredit yours'' type of discussion.

But at the beginning of it all, the sides that are more on PK's side (if I can say that) simply recognize that this is a very good player with tons of upside. One that we should be willing to take a risk on. He still has things to learn, heck, even he admits it, but as I said, he's still worth the risk. So if he wants a long term deal, negotiate the dollars a bit, but sign him up. We might end up saving some cash in the end. But, there's something most agree on, PK will remain a good player no matter how much he's overpaid or underpaid.
To be honest, I don't understand how Bergevin is thinking. I really don't. None of this makes sense to me. Risk losing such a promising player over what? A principle that's not even good to begin with (to think every kid should go through a bridge contract isn't realistic imo)?
But even if the bridge is a necessity, pay him more. It seems like the Habs want PK on a short term and for cheap.. Not sure how this sounds fair to anybody.

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01-23-2013, 09:21 PM
  #640
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
I hope that Molson and Co knew about that Bergevin obsession and his bridge contracts. I know that if I would have been the Pres and he would have told me about that....unless he'd change his opinion, he would NOT have been my pick solely because of that.

You have a vision, you trust your vision and sign your most valuable players in each of your positions. Price, MaxPac, Subban and soon Galchenyuk. You give tons of years...you try to save on the money. NO ****ING BRIDGE CONTRACTS FOR THEM.
I think it has more to do with the uncertainty of Subban, than bridge contracts, habs fans have overated this player, he's good, very good, but he's not in the Karlsson, Doughty mold yet, if ever

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01-23-2013, 09:24 PM
  #641
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Originally Posted by baldrick View Post
If you make an exception to policy for one player then there is no policy. It's team first, not individuals.
As for a trade I think it would be very difficult to get equal value in this situation as other teams know the spot Bergevin is in, besides, we always overhype Habs players, check out the trades forum.
Fine, so there's no policy. You actually can't have a policy. The only thing we can do as a GM is be careful of who you give your money to. That's all. Why the need of a policy? Are we in kindergarden here? Team first again...sorry this team first is build with individuals. The talented ones who get all the money, and the grinders who gets the rest.

As far as overhyping our players and checking out the trades forum? Sorry, that's not a good example. Every Habs player is overrated on this forum until...they changed teams. Subban is hated right now 'cause he's Subban AND a Habs player. The day he changes team, I can tell you that he stops being hated that much.

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Old
01-23-2013, 09:25 PM
  #642
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Originally Posted by baldrick View Post
If you make an exception to policy for one player then there is no policy. It's team first, not individuals.
As for a trade I think it would be very difficult to get equal value in this situation as other teams know the spot Bergevin is in, besides, we always overhype Habs players, check out the trades forum.
You shouldn't have such a stupid iron policy for players though. Every player is a different circumstance, if you are unwavering teams will start sending offer sheets to all your RFAs.

If you know a player is already good and part of your core, why shouldn't want to lock them up long term? It makes no sense. It's one thing to talk about Eller or Price after he lost his starting job. Subban is not in the same situation, at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oshawa General View Post
I think it has more to do with the uncertainty of Subban, than bridge contracts, habs fans have overated this player, he's good, very good, but he's not in the Karlsson, Doughty mold yet, if ever
So you don't pay him Doughty money. I agree. You pay him the money owed to a "very good" defender.

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01-23-2013, 09:26 PM
  #643
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Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
Myers is a great d-man as well but I think he's overpaid at the moment, not interested in overpaying Subban based on potential either.
Nobody wants to overpay players. But sometimes, you just have to.
Do we need to go down the list of overpaid players throughout the league?? Especially if you consider Myers overpaid, you'll find that the list is awfully long.
What's important is whether or not he's worth being overpaid (not to mention, the overpayment may become a very reasonable deal, or even a great one). I have a hard time saying no.

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01-23-2013, 09:27 PM
  #644
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Originally Posted by Oshawa General View Post
I think it has more to do with the uncertainty of Subban, than bridge contracts, habs fans have overated this player, he's good, very good, but he's not in the Karlsson, Doughty mold yet, if ever
It's called having the vision to see what this player can do. Prior to his Norris trophy, Karlsson was seen as an incredible liabilty on D. Pure offensive talent with NO defensive skills whatsoever. I can tell you that EVEN with the Norris trophy, a lot of people still think it's the case. Subban has EVERYTHING to be one of the most complete d-man in the league. It is pretty obvious. So the idea is to sign him now, for as many years as you can to something like 5,5 M$ so that in 4-5 years, when the salary cap will be at 75 M$, that we can laugh our ass off by saying how ridiculously low this Subban contract ends up being.

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01-23-2013, 09:28 PM
  #645
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If you make an exception to policy for one player then there is no policy. It's team first, not individuals.
As for a trade I think it would be very difficult to get equal value in this situation as other teams know the spot Bergevin is in, besides, we always overhype Habs players, check out the trades forum.
So if Galchenyuk scores at a 110 pt/season pace over the next 3 years, you would give him a bridge contract?

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01-23-2013, 09:29 PM
  #646
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
I hope that Molson and Co knew about that Bergevin obsession and his bridge contracts. I know that if I would have been the Pres and he would have told me about that....unless he'd change his opinion, he would NOT have been my pick solely because of that.

You have a vision, you trust your vision and sign your most valuable players in each of your positions. Price, MaxPac, Subban and soon Galchenyuk. You give tons of years...you try to save on the money. NO ****ING BRIDGE CONTRACTS FOR THEM. We did it for Price and MaxPac, so be it. But Subban? He showed more than what Price and MaxPac did. And Galchenyuk will really have to go throughout a bridge? Seriously?
I'm not sure that they did.
Bergevin in that little 24 CH reality TV show talks about, as a GM, you need to have a vision about next year, 2, 3years from now. I'm not sure how you can say that but also believe your most important player (or 2nd after Price) over the past couple years only deserves a bridge deal at a cheap price. The only way this makes sense is if he simply doesn't believe PK is that special after all. If that's the case, then his evaluation skills are scary. But that's weird because it was apparently one of his biggest strengths.

All of this is so confusing and senseless. Really. Nothing of it makes sense to me.

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01-23-2013, 09:30 PM
  #647
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That contract structure was in place before Bergevin even got there, Gainey and Gauthier did the same thing with Komi, Higgins, Plek, Weber, DD etc.

Here is my problem, Subban seems to be willing to accpet a 2 year deal, at fair value, I don't think anyone can say Subban isn't worth 4 to 4.5M on a 2 year deal.

IMO that is the middle ground they should agree on, and it seems so simply. This way the Habs get their 2 year deal to get a longer look at Subban.

And while Subban might not be happy with only 2 years, when Myers, Carlson, and Flower all got long term contract, atleast he is getting paid fair value.

I'm not going to judge Bergevin yet for this, but I'll be upset if trades Subban and doesn't get good value for him.

Say what you want about Gauthier and who he treated ppl badly, but he almost had a similar situation with Gorges, wtv Gauither was doing it was right, because Gorges took a 1 year deal at something like 2.75M and was upset about it 2 summers ago, but after seeing that his knee was good, Gauthier got him looked up right away after that.

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01-23-2013, 09:32 PM
  #648
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Nobody wants to overpay players. But sometimes, you just have to.
Do we need to go down the list of overpaid players throughout the league?? Especially if you consider Myers overpaid, you'll find that the list is awfully long.
What's important is whether or not he's worth being overpaid (not to mention, the overpayment may become a very reasonable deal, or even a great one). I have a hard time saying no.
It's virtually impossible to keep players in Montreal without overpaying them. For one thing, the tax rate means they actually make less money than elsewhere. Second, some people absolutely hate playing in Montreal.

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01-23-2013, 09:33 PM
  #649
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Originally Posted by Oshawa General View Post
I think it has more to do with the uncertainty of Subban, than bridge contracts, habs fans have overated this player, he's good, very good, but he's not in the Karlsson, Doughty mold yet, if ever
It's not because he isn't of the Karlsson or Doughty mold (and defensively I think that's arguable, but wtv, let's say he isn't) that he needs a bridge deal.
There's a bunch of other players throughout the league that aren't of the Karlsson or Doughty mold and got bigger deals offer their ELC.

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01-23-2013, 09:35 PM
  #650
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Originally Posted by poetryinmotion View Post
I like Markov too, and I have been saying for a while that he was a top 5 defenseman before his injury even though many people on this very board will not believe me, but no way is he better than Subban at the moment. He missed a ton of hockey, wasn't exactly himself after coming back last year and had a pretty suspect first game. Might of just been the Panthers, but I would wait until anointing him the #1 D again.

Of course, if Subban doesn't sign this is all moot.

you too would be rusty after missing almost 2 1/2 seasons...

Just the panthers ? yeah, like we have such a great team right ?

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