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Cole's Plus/Minus: Pens vs. Leafs - Armageddon at 2-1-0

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Old
01-23-2013, 09:13 PM
  #101
Jacques G
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Originally Posted by JaysLeafsTFCfan View Post
Nice to read so many good things about Kulemin.
You misunderstand. He sucks and needs traded for cheap.

In fact, we have this rising star by the name of Tangradi. The fellas call him Big Dawg. Hell of a hockey player. Gonna be big I tell ya, real big.

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01-23-2013, 09:14 PM
  #102
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you're not getting both, you're just not. The price for Kulemin will be way too high, and the cost of a true "second wheel" for Sid will obviously steep. If the Pens were to get both, they'd gut their depth/prospect pool in the process.

And while prospects are nothing now, they are going to be vital to keeping the Pens below the cap after Malkin, Letang, et al are re-signed.
1. No, they wouldn't. Shero has infinitely more in the pool at his disposal than when he acquired Hossa and Gill, infinitely more. Shero would have to pay assets to get Sid a second wheel and Geno a third wheel, but he wouldn't have to gut the farm.

2. Kulemin is a metaphor, if you will, for a third wheel.

3. The Pens can get Sid a second wheel, Geno a third wheel, and make it work in the cap. You're going to need to introduce young players, but the idea that you can't deal aggressively from the prospect pool and still have several left who you can introduce to the lineup really doesn't take into account how the cap works.

4. No offense, but this whole 'you can't give up too many prospects' argument is tiresome in another way: At some point, you have to do more for both Sid and Geno. You've got the two best players in hockey, and you send one out with two third wheels and the other out with a second wheel and a fourth wheel. Sorry, but the time has come at long last, with the Staal excuse gone, to set Sid and Geno up to dominate. If that means introducing younger kids like Despres earlier than some think appropriate or less money spent on the third and fourth lines, then so be it. Sid and Geno are the Pens advantage. Time to exploit it, at long last.

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01-23-2013, 09:15 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by JaysLeafsTFCfan View Post
Nice to read so many good things about Kulemin.
Well, it's pretty clear that Kulemin is a different player on the ice with Malkin. Unfortunately, you've only got that set up two more times this year. We'll see how he looks in your other 43 games.

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01-23-2013, 09:17 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
Can we not talk about winger trades in the plus/minus treads please?
It's a little more encouraging than talking about the game.

Games like this happen. I know that. But, in the same way that I saw more maturity against the Flyers on opening day, I wanted to see how the Pens would react to their first trap game. As badly as possible was the answer . . .

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01-23-2013, 09:17 PM
  #105
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We don't even need Kulemin, Shero just needs to find some better quality for our top 6. Tangradi and Dupuis aren't the answer and I don't see this team winning anything with their current top 6. Even if we have Crosby, Malkin and Neal

EDIT: Okay maybe that's a reach and speaking from impatience, the team played so well last weekend and laid an egg tonight, so we'll see how they adjust.

But I fully expect Shero to acquire a winger if Tangradi continues to have no production.

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01-23-2013, 09:18 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
Seriously, what match ups were going to change how the Leafs played?


Also, Kulemin doesn't change the outcome of this game if he were a Pen.
Here's one: I'd have been spoon feeding Geno and Neal to the Kessel line.

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01-23-2013, 09:20 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
1. No, they wouldn't. Shero has infinitely more in the pool at his disposal than when he acquired Hossa and Gill, infinitely more. Shero would have to pay assets to get Sid a second wheel and Geno a third wheel, but he wouldn't have to gut the farm.

2. Kulemin is a metaphor, if you will, for a third wheel.

3. The Pens can get Sid a second wheel, Geno a third wheel, and make it work in the cap. You're going to need to introduce young players, but the idea that you can't deal aggressively from the prospect pool and still have several left who you can introduce to the lineup really doesn't take into account how the cap works.

4. No offense, but this whole 'you can't give up too many prospects' argument is tiresome in another way: At some point, you have to do more for both Sid and Geno. You've got the two best players in hockey, and you send one out with two third wheels and the other out with a second wheel and a fourth wheel. Sorry, but the time has come at long last, with the Staal excuse gone, to set Sid and Geno up to dominate. If that means introducing younger kids like Despres earlier than some think appropriate or less money spent on the third and fourth lines, then so be it. Sid and Geno are the Pens advantage. Time to exploit it, at long last.
And there's the rub, eh? No one wants to give up any prospects, but then no one wants to play them or deal with their growing pains. And how much value do they have in terms of a trade it they only see limited ice time if they're lucky enough to see any at all?

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01-23-2013, 09:20 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
We don't even need Kulemin, Shero just needs to find some better quality for our top 6. Tangradi and Dupuis aren't the answer and I don't see this team winning anything with their current top 6. Even if we have Crosby, Malkin and Neal
I said that last year. I'm saying it again this year. If Sid and Geno both have a second wheel and a third wheel each, then anything is possible for this team. Without that, you're stacking the deck against Sid, Geno, and a team that, for better or worse, feeds so much off whether or how those two are dictating play.

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01-23-2013, 09:20 PM
  #109
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An explosively divisive issue...
There are several here who mentions Fleury as a plus today. It frustrates/baffles me.

There were some good saves and none of the goals were terrible, true, but there were also 5 goals against on 24 shots, and it isn't like we were talking about 2 on 1s or laser shots he had no chances on whatsoever. Add the habitual 3-4 times where he is bambi handling the puck behind our goal, and I just cannot accept that this is the standard of a GOOD/+ game. The bar is just too low then.

This was simply our Fleury. The guy who can make awesome stops but cannot be relied upon to be a consistent game breaker for us.

I really hope Vokoun gets the next one - and a real chance to push Fleury's automatic starter credentials.

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01-23-2013, 09:21 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Here's one: I'd have been spoon feeding Geno and Neal to the Kessel line.
And?

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01-23-2013, 09:22 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
Seriously, what match ups were going to change how the Leafs played?


Also, Kulemin doesn't change the outcome of this game if he were a Pen.
Ugh, are we back to this ******** again? I have no ******* patience anymore, and I can already tell I'm going to miss the good old days of "make whole", and evil owners against greedy players.


How's this: What lines are you going to match against anyone? How does anyone still not ****ing see the fatal flaw of this team???

When the Pens put their 3 best forwards on the ice at the same time, what's left is a roster of forwards that would have trouble outscoring a lot of AHL teams. Anyone who thinks otherwise has no clue what they're talking about.

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01-23-2013, 09:24 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
An explosively divisive issue...
There are several here who mentions Fleury as a plus today. It frustrates/baffles me.

There were some good saves and none of the goals were terrible, true, but there were also 5 goals against on 24 shots, and it isn't like we were talking about 2 on 1s or laser shots he had no chances on whatsoever. Add the habitual 3-4 times where he is bambi handling the puck behind our goal, and I just cannot accept that this is the standard of a GOOD/+ game. The bar is just too low then.

This was simply our Fleury. The guy who can make awesome stops but cannot be relied upon to be a consistent game breaker for us.

I really hope Vokoun gets the next one - and a real chance to push Fleury's automatic starter credentials.
Thank God for you Rip. I can't take how bulletproof Fleury is, even though I actually don't put that much blame on him for tonight.

As I mentioned when the Leafs scored their 4th goal: 4 goals on 6 scoring opportunities.

I can't wait to hear what you have to say about our best forward prospect in Tangradi.

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01-23-2013, 09:24 PM
  #113
Jacques G
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Malkin-Crosby-Neal
Cooke-Sutter-Dupuis
Kunitz-Kennedy-Tangradi
Glass-Vitale-Adams

THERE YA GO BOYS! SHAKE IT UP A BIT!

Oh, and our first line plays a minimum of 25min.

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Old
01-23-2013, 09:25 PM
  #114
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+ We're well on our way to landing MacKinnon.

+ Sid played well.

- Geno started off hot, and went to ****. Too many backhand touch-passes to the center of the ice. Keep it simple, Geno.

- The officiating

- The team's inability to do much of anything at ES. The officiating was bad, but don't allow yourself to be in a position to use officiating as an excuse.

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01-23-2013, 09:26 PM
  #115
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Why did Malkin get a game misconduct? I missed what happened

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01-23-2013, 09:26 PM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
An explosively divisive issue...
There are several here who mentions Fleury as a plus today. It frustrates/baffles me.

There were some good saves and none of the goals were terrible, true, but there were also 5 goals against on 24 shots, and it isn't like we were talking about 2 on 1s or laser shots he had no chances on whatsoever. Add the habitual 3-4 times where he is bambi handling the puck behind our goal, and I just cannot accept that this is the standard of a GOOD/+ game. The bar is just too low then.

This was simply our Fleury. The guy who can make awesome stops but cannot be relied upon to be a consistent game breaker for us.

I really hope Vokoun gets the next one - and a real chance to push Fleury's automatic starter credentials.
Agree. Definitely doesn't deserve a plus for this game. And how many more times did he get beat HIGH GLOVE. I swear to god I could float a shot over his glove hand.

As for the winger situation.. at some point you have to make the deal to acquire somebody for Sid/Geno and part with your prospects. Are we going to wait until they are 30 before doing something or can we get the party started while they are still in their prime??

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01-23-2013, 09:26 PM
  #117
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And there's the rub, eh? No one wants to give up any prospects, but then no one wants to play them or deal with their growing pains. And how much value do they have in terms of a trade it they only see limited ice time if they're lucky enough to see any at all?
Guys like Tangradi had decent trade value three years ago. The five blue chip defensive prospects all have varying degrees of high trade value. You've got a first and a second coming up in arguably the deepest draft in years.

I know, you want them because some of them COULD make a significant impact in a few years.

By the same token, when the reluctance starts to look like a miser hording money, you wonder if sight has been lost of the fact that what you wonder about any of these prospects if whether any of them that COULD make a significant impact also COULD make that impact before Geno turns 30.

I'm not saying it's easy. But, for me, you've spent three years hording. IMO, in the big 5, Bennett, and the 1st this year, you've got 7 major trade chips (all worth more than ANY piece paid for Hossa). In Dumoulin, the 2nd in this draft, and maybe 2-3 more pieces, you've got 5 trade chips that have more value than anything moved for Hossa or Gill outside the 1st and Esposito paid for Hossa.

How many of those chips are going to pan out in the end? How many are going to make a significant impact at all? How many before Sid or Geno turn 30?

For me, this team is Sid and Geno. You don't trade them all. You don't trade them for more immediately impactful pieces that don't make sense. But, at some point, you've got to give to get, where getting means putting Sid and Geno in a more immediately better position to win another cup.

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01-23-2013, 09:28 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by puckmelongtime View Post
Why did Malkin get a game misconduct? I missed what happened
Yohe tweeted that the Penguins were livid about the too many men. The linesman at the benches said it was a good change, but the linesman across the ice called it.

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01-23-2013, 09:29 PM
  #119
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We definitely need to do something with the first line. Sid's playing with two third wheelers.

Sid's our best asset. Ray needs to reward him with a talented winger. If you need to send a Joe Morrow and Pouliot package outta here to get that winger you do it without question.

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01-23-2013, 09:29 PM
  #120
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Yohe tweeted that the Penguins were livid about the too many men. The linesman at the benches said it was a good change, but the linesman across the ice called it.
Man, and I just saw a replay of the Leafs first goal (was on my way back from my own game)

How in Christ's name is that not goalie interference? Did the Pens at least try to make a stink of this?

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01-23-2013, 09:30 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
1. No, they wouldn't. Shero has infinitely more in the pool at his disposal than when he acquired Hossa and Gill, infinitely more. Shero would have to pay assets to get Sid a second wheel and Geno a third wheel, but he wouldn't have to gut the farm.
The Hossa deal was an exception, not a rule. There aren't stud 1st liners that are definitely leaving their teams every year. With the proliferation of long, back-diving contracts, and now a CBA that rewards players for re-signing with their current team, players have been staying with their teams more and more, and the FA/available pool has been drying up more and more.

I don't think the Pens will be able to do this via the Hossa route, they'll have to go the "James Neal route", which is fine, but who is the Goligoski on this team now, Matt Niskanen?

Otherwise, I think you're talking about a combination of your "blue chip" guys.

Further, and also touching on the 2nd half of #4: do you not think Shero is trying daily to get something done? They were obviously in hard on Parise (that's what she said), I'm almost positive they were the team in on Dustin Brown last year until someone let the cat out of the bag and f'd it up. And I'm positive that Shero has been in on everything else that could possibly serve this team's needs. He's an aggressive guy, and he knows, better than all of us, what their issues are.

Quote:
2. Kulemin is a metaphor, if you will, for a third wheel.
Well let's replace Kulemin with "Potato", then, just for a bit? Because hearing about Malkin and Potato's great chemistry over and over seems a bit like beating your head against the wall to alleviate a headache. Potato isn't coming here.

Wait, this got all screwy. And now I'm hungry.

Quote:
3. The Pens can get Sid a second wheel, Geno a third wheel, and make it work in the cap. You're going to need to introduce young players, but the idea that you can't deal aggressively from the prospect pool and still have several left who you can introduce to the lineup really doesn't take into account how the cap works.
I agree that they can make it work under the cap, I've never said otherwise. Do think that they are going to be unwilling to part with as many assets that they'd need to to acquire all of your wants.

Quote:
4. No offense, but this whole 'you can't give up too many prospects' argument is tiresome in another way: At some point, you have to do more for both Sid and Geno. You've got the two best players in hockey, and you send one out with two third wheels and the other out with a second wheel and a fourth wheel. Sorry, but the time has come at long last, with the Staal excuse gone, to set Sid and Geno up to dominate. If that means introducing younger kids like Despres earlier than some think appropriate or less money spent on the third and fourth lines, then so be it. Sid and Geno are the Pens advantage. Time to exploit it, at long last.

??? I'm all for playing the young kids. But I'm also for patience. We've reached the end of Tangradi's time on the Pens 2nd line after 2.5 games. I mean, OK. I think that's ridiculous, but in a way, if it means I never have to read another passive-aggressive, "I'm going to be patient with this kid, but he needs to be on the next flight to Neptune" post, it'll almost be worth it.

By the way, I'm sooooo for playing young kids, that I'm really not in favor of trading a lot of them - if you have true stud defenseman in your system that you hold on to them, because outside of Letang, the Pens lack dynamic guys on the back end.

This is a personal issue for me, but James Neal is far and away the 3rd-best forward on the Penguins. And Malkin is supposed to be 1a or 1b. I really get tired of reading how his line needs to be sculpted down to the stitching on the back of his linemate's sweater after every game.

Just as I keep reading that Sid is good enough to perform with Dupuis and Kunitz, Malkin is good enough to perform with Neal and Tangradi, or Kennedy, or Cooke, or you, or me, or Elmo. A better "3rd wheel" wasn't fixing his performance tonight. (AND I LOVE MALKIN, and I don't care that he had a bad game, almost everyone did, it happens. Just saying wingers won't fix everything that was wrong with this team tonight)

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01-23-2013, 09:30 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
Thank God for you Rip. I can't take how bulletproof Fleury is, even though I actually don't put that much blame on him for tonight.

As I mentioned when the Leafs scored their 4th goal: 4 goals on 6 scoring opportunities.

I can't wait to hear what you have to say about our best forward prospect in Tangradi.
His defenders have been quiet tonight.

You know, I think some are citing that failed dump as when Bylsma pulled the plug.

IMO, the experiment 'ended' when Geno was busting free and Tangradi, if he'd looked, would've seen Geno streaking into the offensive zone with two steps on his defender. Instead, Tangradi put his head down and skated to the side to 'create space and let the other forwards catch up'. By the time he looked up, Geno was already out of real estate.

I don't know if Tangradi has a future in the league. He might. He actually might be a lot better with Crosby. But, on a team where it's Geno or bust, I think it needs to be bust.

Still, I'd be willing to give him another chance. I just think it's 50/50 that Bylsma is.

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01-23-2013, 09:31 PM
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
An explosively divisive issue...
There are several here who mentions Fleury as a plus today. It frustrates/baffles me.

There were some good saves and none of the goals were terrible, true, but there were also 5 goals against on 24 shots, and it isn't like we were talking about 2 on 1s or laser shots he had no chances on whatsoever. Add the habitual 3-4 times where he is bambi handling the puck behind our goal, and I just cannot accept that this is the standard of a GOOD/+ game. The bar is just too low then.

This was simply our Fleury. The guy who can make awesome stops but cannot be relied upon to be a consistent game breaker for us.

I really hope Vokoun gets the next one - and a real chance to push Fleury's automatic starter credentials.
Simply saying "5 goals on 24 shots must means MAF was bad" is such an ignorant comment.

He was literally bowled over by his Eng on one goal and two others were off of Pens turnovers to wide open guys in the slot.

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01-23-2013, 09:31 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Guys like Tangradi had decent trade value three years ago. The five blue chip defensive prospects all have varying degrees of high trade value. You've got a first and a second coming up in arguably the deepest draft in years.

I know, you want them because some of them COULD make a significant impact in a few years.

By the same token, when the reluctance starts to look like a miser hording money, you wonder if sight has been lost of the fact that what you wonder about any of these prospects if whether any of them that COULD make a significant impact also COULD make that impact before Geno turns 30.

I'm not saying it's easy. But, for me, you've spent three years hording. IMO, in the big 5, Bennett, and the 1st this year, you've got 7 major trade chips (all worth more than ANY piece paid for Hossa). In Dumoulin, the 2nd in this draft, and maybe 2-3 more pieces, you've got 5 trade chips that have more value than anything moved for Hossa or Gill outside the 1st and Esposito paid for Hossa.

How many of those chips are going to pan out in the end? How many are going to make a significant impact at all? How many before Sid or Geno turn 30?

For me, this team is Sid and Geno. You don't trade them all. You don't trade them for more immediately impactful pieces that don't make sense. But, at some point, you've got to give to get, where getting means putting Sid and Geno in a more immediately better position to win another cup.
Nailed it, especially the bolded. People have to be careful not to want as many new toys as possible over Stanley Cups. Not saying anyone thinks that consciously, but your points say it better than I could.

The good thing is they may not have to necessarily give much up, because any top 6-capable forward is an improvement over the options they have now. We may just be talking a couple of picks given up to get a capable body on Malkin's right and not have to move a bunch of guys around the depth chart. Vinny Prospal immediately comes to mind.

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01-23-2013, 09:31 PM
  #125
IcedCapp
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Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
We don't even need Kulemin, Shero just needs to find some better quality for our top 6. Tangradi and Dupuis aren't the answer and I don't see this team winning anything with their current top 6. Even if we have Crosby, Malkin and Neal

EDIT: Okay maybe that's a reach and speaking from impatience, the team played so well last weekend and laid an egg tonight, so we'll see how they adjust.

But I fully expect Shero to acquire a winger if Tangradi continues to have no production.
Dupuis' been less of a problem than Kunitz so far, no? I mean, I don't like having Dupuis on the "first line" more than anyone else, but he hasn't been killing plays so far.

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