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P.K. Subban Thread - 5.0 - The "Doughty Money Vs. Lowball Bridge" Edition

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01-23-2013, 09:35 PM
  #651
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It's wrong to overpay for potential. Look at these examples of players who got paid on potential and haven't lived up to it. Oh, you use examples of players who were paid on potential and lived up to it? But of course! They are elite players who lived up to their potential! By the way I am totally fine with trading Subban due to his "attitude" and "me first" feelings since "me first" players never win Stanley Cups. I still have my "The Wall" poster of Patrick Roy in my room. And oh yeah, if anyone wants Subban I want your best player in return. Even though he isn't good enough to make more than $3M per year in an RFA year. Since he hasn't proven it yet.

---

Pretty much what I read from every post not wanting to keep Subban.

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01-23-2013, 09:36 PM
  #652
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
It was posted a few pages ago by Marc The Habs Fan.

I really don't understand how you can read this and just dismiss it.

For once, in like forever, we have the potential of a huge star, that is extremely vocal about wanting to stay here, and yet some want to move him. For what reason exactly?? That's still unknown..

It's a damn shame.
I am with you here. It's sickening to see quite a few of our fans here dismissed what PK has done for the team. We haven't got a player as dynamic as him for a long long time and these fans sided with MB. What MB tried to accomplish here? The end result is so obvious. For those fans who want to trade him away, we are not going to get equal value back. We need a number 1 D and no one is going to give us another Number 1 D back in a trade. You talk about no one above the team. Corey/Houle traded away Roy because they think Roy put himself above the team and our team has been mediocre for a long long time.

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01-23-2013, 09:39 PM
  #653
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Say what you want about Gauthier and who he treated ppl badly, but he almost had a similar situation with Gorges, wtv Gauither was doing it was right, because Gorges took a 1 year deal at something like 2.75M and was upset about it 2 summers ago, but after seeing that his knee was good, Gauthier got him looked up right away after that.
Yup. Gorges got extended the first day it was possible to do so, clearly there was some understanding over the summer that it would be done quickly if Gorges came back healthy and performing.

To the credit of Gainey and Gauthier, we never even came close to a holdout under their watch.

Still think part of the problem here is Subban has played 181 NHL games (playoffs included) and is told he has to 'prove himself' for 2 years, while Pacioretty had played 202 games entering this season and got a 6 year extension for 1 big season with still 1 year left on his bridge deal. Considering they were both in the same draft class, the comparison is easy to make.

If there had been no Pacioretty extension this summer, it would have likely been easier to sign Subban because there was no direct comparison to be made within the team. Not that I'm ripping the Pacioretty deal, it was fantastic.

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01-23-2013, 09:40 PM
  #654
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What is wrong with a bridge contract ?


Price and Max had no problem signing one, why cant PK do the same ?

He is not bigger than the team

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01-23-2013, 09:40 PM
  #655
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It's called having the vision to see what this player can do. Prior to his Norris trophy, Karlsson was seen as an incredible liabilty on D. Pure offensive talent with NO defensive skills whatsoever. I can tell you that EVEN with the Norris trophy, a lot of people still think it's the case. Subban has EVERYTHING to be one of the most complete d-man in the league. It is pretty obvious. So the idea is to sign him now, for as many years as you can to something like 5,5 M$ so that in 4-5 years, when the salary cap will be at 75 M$, that we can laugh our ass off by saying how ridiculously low this Subban contract ends up being.
You make some good points, he may become one of the most complete D's, or he may not, but there is something behind the scenes that we don't know about him that makes GM's pause. I go back to PK's last year in Junior, he was a dominate force in the league (in the toughest Major Jr A league in the country, I'm biased, LOL), and he also was a major force in the world juniors that year as well, why was he only drafted in the 2nd round, he should have been a 1st rounder.

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01-23-2013, 09:40 PM
  #656
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Originally Posted by McSorleyStick View Post
What is wrong with a bridge contract ?


Price and Max had no problem signed one, why cant PK do the same ?
Carey Price: signed a bridge after Montreal traded Halak and Price had his worst season performance

Max Pacioretty: signed a bridge after finally making the NHL out of the AHL

P.K. Subban: told to sign a bridge deal after being Montreal's number one defenceman

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01-23-2013, 09:41 PM
  #657
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
A waste of time since you can't find anything that Gorges said about Subban that was negative about his personality, on or off ice play?

«Je ne suis pas sûr, a-t-il dit. On verra. C'est dur à comprendre... Le but du hockey, c'est de gagner en équipe. Si on a du succès, c'est à cause de l'équipe.

«Je ne voudrais pas être dans cette position. C'est certain qu'un joueur essaie toujours d'avoir la meilleure entente possible. Un gars dans sa situation n'a pas beaucoup de droits quant à la négociation, alors il doit dire oui à un contrat de transition, en attendant de mériter le droit de négocier à la hausse par la suite. Je pense que 95 % des joueurs sont déjà passés par là.»




How dare Gorges say such horrible things about PK...Clearly he doesn't like him.
I still cannot believe that Gorges would go out and make some on the record comment re. a teammate's contract situation. If I recall correctly form a couple of days ago the takeaway message was that JG felt that a bridge deal was good enough for him so PK should take one too. I sincerely hope that was not Gorges' intent to put that out there (given his situation was completely different from PK's).

But if that is the takeaway message then I guess it's fair to ask Gorges and his buddies form the NHLPA why they didn't just accept the first ****** offer the owners gave and get hockey staring on time. By holding out for a better deal they cheated the fans of a half season of hockey, cheated all of the arena workers a salary, and cheated themselves out of half a year of salary, too.

I mean, you should just take what's offered, as it must be good enough, no?

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01-23-2013, 09:42 PM
  #658
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
Yup. Gorges got extended the first day it was possible to do so, clearly there was some understanding over the summer that it would be done quickly if Gorges came back healthy and performing.

To the credit of Gainey and Gauthier, we never even came close to a holdout under their watch.

Still think part of the problem here is Subban has played 181 NHL games (playoffs included) and is told he has to 'prove himself' for 2 years, while Pacioretty had played 202 games entering this season and got a 6 year extension for 1 big season with still 1 year left on his bridge deal. Considering they were both in the same draft class, the comparison is easy to make.

If there had been no Pacioretty extension this summer, it would have likely been easier to sign Subban because there was no direct comparison to be made within the team. Not that I'm ripping the Pacioretty deal, it was fantastic.
Question is, does Subban accept six years 4.5 per year lets say or does he want to be paid what he thinks he is worth?

Mcguire seemed to think today that 5 years at a number close to 5 mill per year gets it done.

Pacioretty took a discount to remain a Hab and have security, would Subban do the same?

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01-23-2013, 09:42 PM
  #659
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Originally Posted by poetryinmotion View Post
Subban will hit payday one way or the other, Habs or elsewhere.
If he hits a payday elsewhere, we will be rewarded handsomely.

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Originally Posted by poetryinmotion View Post
I'm with you man... bridge contracts are insulting to talent like PK and Galchenyuk. Price is an exception because he plays goaltender and those tend to develop slower. Pacioretty isn't in their league, imo.
Galchenyuk is an elite talent in every sense of the word, as much as I love PK, he isn't.

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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Nobody wants to overpay players. But sometimes, you just have to.
Do we need to go down the list of overpaid players throughout the league?? Especially if you consider Myers overpaid, you'll find that the list is awfully long.
What's important is whether or not he's worth being overpaid (not to mention, the overpayment may become a very reasonable deal, or even a great one). I have a hard time saying no.
You overpay UFAs to get them to choose your team over the 29 others. I'm not interested in using the mistakes other teams make as a gauge to measure PKs value. RFAs like him should sign either a bridge contract, if they are looking to break bank later, or a long-term cap friendly deal. By the way PK describes himself in that interview with Stubbs, and just his attitude in general, I feel he thinks he's worth top-dollar already.

2 years 8-9 million. Let's see if PK can develop into a legit big money d-man before we pay him like one.

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01-23-2013, 09:43 PM
  #660
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PK Subban and his agent should not accept a bridge contract.

He'll eventually get traded to a team that will lock him up for the term he's looking. Might settle for less on dollars per year but he'll have less taxes most likely to pay.

Why should PK settle for short term if he knows he's worth long term?

Why would he risk losing millions in case of an injury?

PK is going to win this one. He knows he'll get his long term and secure his future.

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01-23-2013, 09:44 PM
  #661
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Did we get good return for Chelios, Roy? By trading PK, our GM is retarded. How are we going to get another Number 1 D? None of our prospect has similar ability as PK. Another team is not going to give us a similar defenseman. Look at the Oilers. Despite all the young offensive dymamo, they still finish last with a poor defense and average goalie. We already have Price. PK is a great defenseman to build a strong back end. If we ending up trading PK, I will put MB in the same class as Rejean Houle.
That is a red herring argument.

PK is (was) our #1 DMan because Markov was injured and the rest of our DMen would be fortunate to be bottom pairing or even worse, # 7 or #8.

Would PK be a #1 in Boston? Vancouver? Chicago?

Perspective is needed.

For Subban fans, he deserves the highest contract possible because he is the best DMan in Montreal.

For the rest of the NHL, Subban is not a #1 DMan and who has yet to prove he is worthy of a #1 DMan salary.

Yes, Bergevin is the Montreal GM but he must manage in the NHL where reality rules over emotion.

To those worried about trading Subban and not getting greater "value". Yes, be worried. For Subban's value is a lot higher in the eyes of Montreal fans than it is around the NHL in the GMs offices.

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01-23-2013, 09:44 PM
  #662
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Originally Posted by HomaridII View Post
Question is, does Subban accept six years 4.5 per year lets say or does he want to be paid what he thinks he is worth?

Mcguire seemed to think today that 5 years at a number close to 5 mill per year gets it done.

Pacioretty took a discount to remain a Hab and have security, would Subban do the same?
If Pacioretty took a bargain at $4.5M and Subban is willing to take $5M, why wouldn't Bergevin sign it?

My confidence in Bergevin is dropping by the minute.

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01-23-2013, 09:45 PM
  #663
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Quote:
Originally Posted by No Team Needed View Post
Carey Price: signed a bridge after Montreal traded Halak and Price had his worst season performance

Max Pacioretty: signed a bridge after finally making the NHL out of the AHL

P.K. Subban: told to sign a bridge deal after being Montreal's number one defenceman
Good point

But they are better players now


Which means PK could become even more number1er !

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01-23-2013, 09:46 PM
  #664
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If Pacioretty took a bargain at $4.5M and Subban is willing to take $5M, why wouldn't Bergevin sign it?

My confidence in Bergevin is dropping by the minute.
How do you know what Subban would accept? Mcguire was guessing, he said neither side is talking to the media and praised both sides for that.

I am seriously asking this, we have NO CLUE whatosever what he is asking for, and only a LITTLE BIT of information about what the Habs are offering.

Even Mckenzie when talking this morning spoke with zero certainty about what both sides want.

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01-23-2013, 09:46 PM
  #665
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Galchenyuk is an elite talent in every sense of the word, as much as I love PK, he isn't.
I could not beleive what I just read. Galchenyuk is talented, no doubt about it. But saying Subban does not have talent is completely retarded. You know what, I think Subban should play for another team because the Habs simply do not deserve him.

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01-23-2013, 09:47 PM
  #666
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Originally Posted by McSorleyStick View Post
Good point

But they are better players now


Which means PK could become even more number1er !
The funny truth is that I believe that if Subban took a two year contract and continued to develop, he could be arguing for $7M in the next two years. At a long term deal. And then Bergevin would be having to do this same routine with Tinordi and Beaulieu, and who knows how loyal those two are to the team. They could be signing RFA offer sheets the moment Bergevin says, "Bridge" to avoid missing any hockey.

Subban wants to sign now. He wants the security. Bergevin should be giving it to him. Bridge contracts are asked to players who had bad years but are better than their numbers, not players who had career years and still have room for development.

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01-23-2013, 09:48 PM
  #667
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
Yup. Gorges got extended the first day it was possible to do so, clearly there was some understanding over the summer that it would be done quickly if Gorges came back healthy and performing.

To the credit of Gainey and Gauthier, we never even came close to a holdout under their watch.

Still think part of the problem here is Subban has played 181 NHL games (playoffs included) and is told he has to 'prove himself' for 2 years, while Pacioretty had played 202 games entering this season and got a 6 year extension for 1 big season with still 1 year left on his bridge deal. Considering they were both in the same draft class, the comparison is easy to make.

If there had been no Pacioretty extension this summer, it would have likely been easier to sign Subban because there was no direct comparison to be made within the team. Not that I'm ripping the Pacioretty deal, it was fantastic.
I disagree about this point, its not a question of asking Subban to prove himself but rather protecting your self on your next contract.

If you sign Subban for 2 years, at FAIR PRICE ex4M, which might not be what the Habs are doing, Subban should take that offer, this way MTL can look him up on a contract that eats more UFA years in 2 years time, but doing it while he is sill an RFA, less pressure to do so.

For all the teams that gave those guys 5-6 year deals after their ELC, the Carlson, Meyers, Skinner, Hall, those guys are going to be UFA when the deal is done, and probably going to at-least test the free agency market.

Not sure if I'm explaining my point right, but its basically only given Subban 2 a year term now, in the hopes that in 2 years, you can sign him to a long term contract, without he fear of him becoming a UFA that upcoming summer for example.

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01-23-2013, 09:48 PM
  #668
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It's wrong to overpay for potential. Look at these examples of players who got paid on potential and haven't lived up to it. Oh, you use examples of players who were paid on potential and lived up to it? But of course! They are elite players who lived up to their potential! By the way I am totally fine with trading Subban due to his "attitude" and "me first" feelings since "me first" players never win Stanley Cups. I still have my "The Wall" poster of Patrick Roy in my room. And oh yeah, if anyone wants Subban I want your best player in return. Even though he isn't good enough to make more than $3M per year in an RFA year. Since he hasn't proven it yet.

---

Pretty much what I read from every post not wanting to keep Subban.
That's hilarious because Patrick Roy is the perfect example of a me first guy who thought he was bigger than the team.

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01-23-2013, 09:49 PM
  #669
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Let me precede my thought by saying I'm a huge pk fan.

First, I hated the article in the gazette. It makes him look arrogant. What he saying is somewhat true but you can't be tooting your own horn. Saying he accomplished a lot in 2 years, really? Telling us what his value is? C'mon.

To those saying Bergevin should get fired if they trade him, what are the alternatives? Give him what he wants? Essentially saying, play hard ball & get what you want? Sit him out all year? All we know for sure, is subban wants a pay day, which is clear by his interview & the team is telling him, we like what we see, sign two years, play well & earn your extension.

It's just a no win situation. We will never get fair value, but you cave to his demands & it sets a bad precedent & looks weak.
Wish a happy medium existed but looks too far gone

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01-23-2013, 09:50 PM
  #670
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That's hilarious because Patrick Roy is the perfect example of a me first guy who thought he was bigger than the team.
And yet he won 2 cups with the Habs. If their goal is success.. it will be success with the team they are on.

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Old
01-23-2013, 09:50 PM
  #671
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How do you know what Subban would accept? Mcguire was guessing, he said neither side is talking to the media and praised both sides for that.
I don't, but Subban himself said he isn't trying to rob the bank and everyone in the media continues to state Subban wanting numbers between $5M and $6M. The only "facts" we know are that Bergevin wants a short term deal. Dave Stubbs reported it after talking to Subban and it's known he has a close relationship with Subban.

Every minute Subban isn't signed, my confidence in Bergevin drops. Everyone calls a player greedy in these negotiations. I'm calling Bergevin greedy. This is just as bad as Jeremy Jacobs giving away free pizza slices the size of pinkie fingers.

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01-23-2013, 09:51 PM
  #672
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Incredible what rds is trying to do with that lastest article. Their agenda is set, get Subban out of Montreal.

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01-23-2013, 09:52 PM
  #673
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I could not beleive what I just read. Galchenyuk is talented, no doubt about it. But saying Subban does not have talent is completely retarded. You know what, I think Subban should play for another team because the Habs simply do not deserve him.
ECWHSWI summed it up perfectly a few days ago.

Impact vs talent.

I am not going to rehash what he said regarding this but it was very appropriate regarding Subban.

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01-23-2013, 09:52 PM
  #674
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Incredible what rds is trying to do with that lastest article. Their agenda is set, get Subban out of Montreal.
The agenda was also set for Halak to stay, Price to go and Kovalev to be re-signed.

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01-23-2013, 09:53 PM
  #675
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The funny truth is that I believe that if Subban took a two year contract and continued to develop, he could be arguing for $7M in the next two years. At a long term deal. And then Bergevin would be having to do this same routine with Tinordi and Beaulieu, and who knows how loyal those two are to the team. They could be signing RFA offer sheets the moment Bergevin says, "Bridge" to avoid missing any hockey.

Subban wants to sign now. He wants the security. Bergevin should be giving it to him. Bridge contracts are asked to players who had bad years but are better than their numbers, not players who had career years and still have room for development.
true

Hopefully they will reach a deal

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