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P.K. Subban Thread - 5.0 - The "Doughty Money Vs. Lowball Bridge" Edition

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Old
01-23-2013, 09:53 PM
  #676
Kriss E
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
2 years 8-9 million. Let's see if PK can develop into a legit big money d-man before we pay him like one.
There's a rumor that came out just before the Hot Stove came out with Bergevin's offer of 2y at about 2.75M per. That rumor said PK would agree to a 6y 24M deal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HomaridII View Post
Question is, does Subban accept six years 4.5 per year lets say or does he want to be paid what he thinks he is worth?

Mcguire seemed to think today that 5 years at a number close to 5 mill per year gets it done.

Pacioretty took a discount to remain a Hab and have security, would Subban do the same?
As I said, there's a rumor that came out that PK would accept 6y 24M.
He also said in the article that he isn't asking for anything huge. The kid actually said that. He says he's not being unreasonable. So I have a very hard time believing he would say that and then ask for 6M+.

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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
That is a red herring argument.

PK is (was) our #1 DMan because Markov was injured and the rest of our DMen would be fortunate to be bottom pairing or even worse, # 7 or #8.

Would PK be a #1 in Boston? Vancouver? Chicago?

Perspective is needed.
It's one thing to be #1 by default, it's another to be #1 by default and be effective at it, which he were.

Perspective isn't always applicable.

Would Karlsson be #1 in Nashville? Probably not. So?
You can say Markov is ahead of PK, making him our #2. Is this supposed to be a knock on him, as if Markov is just a decent Dman and PK isn't that great after all??

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Old
01-23-2013, 09:54 PM
  #677
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Originally Posted by No Team Needed View Post
Every minute Subban isn't signed, my confidence in Bergevin drops. Everyone calls a player greedy in these negotiations. I'm calling Bergevin greedy. This is just as bad as Jeremy Jacobs giving away free pizza slices the size of pinkie fingers.
I would say he is incompetent by sticking to bridge contract. If PK is the only one who ask for long term contract after the ELC, then I understand. But that's not the case here.

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01-23-2013, 09:55 PM
  #678
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
And yet he won 2 cups with the Habs. If their goal is success.. it will be success with the team they are on.
And after getting traded, he won two more cups, not to mention the Conn Smythe.

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01-23-2013, 09:56 PM
  #679
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Originally Posted by No Team Needed View Post
The funny truth is that I believe that if Subban took a two year contract and continued to develop, he could be arguing for $7M in the next two years. At a long term deal. And then Bergevin would be having to do this same routine with Tinordi and Beaulieu, and who knows how loyal those two are to the team. They could be signing RFA offer sheets the moment Bergevin says, "Bridge" to avoid missing any hockey.

Subban wants to sign now. He wants the security. Bergevin should be giving it to him. Bridge contracts are asked to players who had bad years but are better than their numbers, not players who had career years and still have room for development.
And on the flip side, Tinordi and Beaulieu could tell Bergevin that they want $7 million dollar contracts after their 2nd season and hold out just to prove they are serious.

Then what?

There is a reason you have a GM and you have players. If the players start dictating their salary structure and amount, then what is the point of having management?

That's called extortion. If a player is signed by the Habs and they resort to that tactic, hit the road. They will never be winners since I comes before team.

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01-23-2013, 09:57 PM
  #680
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Meehan/Subban are acting as if the notion of a RFA player without arbitrary rights (arbitration) has been removed from the new CBA. We can blame Meehan all we want (the guy is banking on Subban’s popularity) but, at the end of the day, it’s Subban who decides to stay home.

If Bergevin offered Subban better terms than Price (for instance: 2 years at 4M$ per season), I would see no reason to support PK here. Luckily for us (and the Canadiens!), Emelin, Diaz (especially him), Bouillon and even Kaberle were able, thus far, to pick up the slack while Subban sits at home. Not to mention Gorges and Markov playing 21-24 minutes per game.

Btw... Guy Carbonneau mentioned on RDS that Meehan’s suggestion to Subban was to ink a two years deal à la Del Zotto. He was referring to the length of Del Zotto’s contract. Carbonneau only had good words for Meehan.

Just for the record: 2 years at 4M$ per season... it would not be good enough?


EDIT:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
And on the flip side, Tinordi and Beaulieu could tell Bergevin that they want $7 million dollar contracts after their 2nd season and hold out just to prove they are serious.

Then what?

There is a reason you have a GM and you have players. If the players start dictating their salary structure and amount, then what is the point of having management?

That's called extortion. If a player is signed by the Habs and they resort to that tactic, hit the road. They will never be winners since I comes before team.
You wrote "... then what is the point of having management...", I add: what's the point of this notion called "RFA with no arbritrary rights"? Was it removed from the new CBA?


Last edited by Kjell Dahlin: 01-23-2013 at 10:04 PM.
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01-23-2013, 09:57 PM
  #681
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
And after getting traded, he won two more cups, not to mention the Conn Smythe.
How selfish of Roy, winning another Conn Smythe. How me first to get in media arguments with Jeremy Roenick. He was also always insulting to his backup. Not my kind of player!

I'm still waiting for someone to say something like, "A real Hall of Famer like Ken Dryden wouldn't hold out for more money"

Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
That's called extortion. If a player is signed by the Habs and they resort to that tactic, hit the road. They will never be winners since I comes before team.
I guess I didn't have to wait too long...

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01-23-2013, 09:58 PM
  #682
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I feel disgusted with the whole Anti-Subban campaign. I'm not a big Subban fan, but I recognize that he's a legit top 3-4 defenseman on most hockey teams and should be paid accordingly. To me, a bridge contract is justifiable if the value of the player is difficult to determine, which is not really the case, or if the player's demand is absolutely ridiculous (Doughty or Karlsson money), which we do NOT know if it's the case here.

Is PK worth the salary of an elite defenseman? I don't think so. Should PK be forced to accept anything less than the salary of any team's Top 3 Defenseman? I don't think so either.

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01-23-2013, 09:58 PM
  #683
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
And yet he won 2 cups with the Habs. If their goal is success.. it will be success with the team they are on.
I agree. I don't care what their attitudes are like as long as they make us win. This is professional sports. Some guys will have superstar attitudes and think they are owed the world. And these guys can still help you win it all.

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Old
01-23-2013, 09:59 PM
  #684
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Scot L. Beckenbaugh could solve this mess if he could help end the lockout. Get him involved!

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01-23-2013, 10:00 PM
  #685
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Letting him go in a trade is the wrong move. So it's time for Bergevin to make the right move.

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01-23-2013, 10:01 PM
  #686
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
There's a rumor that came out just before the Hot Stove came out with Bergevin's offer of 2y at about 2.75M per. That rumor said PK would agree to a 6y 24M deal.



As I said, there's a rumor that came out that PK would accept 6y 24M.
He also said in the article that he isn't asking for anything huge. The kid actually said that. He says he's not being unreasonable. So I have a very hard time believing he would say that and then ask for 6M+.



It's one thing to be #1 by default, it's another to be #1 by default and be effective at it, which he were.

Perspective isn't always applicable.

Would Karlsson be #1 in Nashville? Probably not. So?
You can say Markov is ahead of PK, making him our #2. Is this supposed to be a knock on him, as if Markov is just a decent Dman and PK isn't that great after all??

Slow down Kriss. I said PK was our #1 because Markov was injured. That is not a knock on Subban or Markov.

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01-23-2013, 10:01 PM
  #687
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
It's called having the vision to see what this player can do. Prior to his Norris trophy, Karlsson was seen as an incredible liabilty on D. Pure offensive talent with NO defensive skills whatsoever. I can tell you that EVEN with the Norris trophy, a lot of people still think it's the case. Subban has EVERYTHING to be one of the most complete d-man in the league. It is pretty obvious. So the idea is to sign him now, for as many years as you can to something like 5,5 M$ so that in 4-5 years, when the salary cap will be at 75 M$, that we can laugh our ass off by saying how ridiculously low this Subban contract ends up being.
Karlsson is just THAT good offensively. He's still got holes to his defensive game but he is just such a smart player that PK could never be compared to him, even though we used to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by habs03 View Post
Here is my problem, Subban seems to be willing to accpet a 2 year deal, at fair value, I don't think anyone can say Subban isn't worth 4 to 4.5M on a 2 year deal.
Maybe he wants more than 4.5 per for 2 years?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
It's not because he isn't of the Karlsson or Doughty mold (and defensively I think that's arguable, but wtv, let's say he isn't) that he needs a bridge deal.
There's a bunch of other players throughout the league that aren't of the Karlsson or Doughty mold and got bigger deals offer their ELC.
Bigger deals than those 2? Like who?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
To the credit of Gainey and Gauthier, we never even came close to a holdout under their watch.
I'd say there's a good chance that PK Subban has a lot to do with that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by No Team Needed View Post
Carey Price: signed a bridge after Montreal traded Halak and Price had his worst season performance

Max Pacioretty: signed a bridge after finally making the NHL out of the AHL

P.K. Subban: told to sign a bridge deal after being Montreal's number one defenceman
By default.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustAHabFan View Post
I could not beleive what I just read. Galchenyuk is talented, no doubt about it. But saying Subban does not have talent is completely retarded. You know what, I think Subban should play for another team because the Habs simply do not deserve him.
Saying that I said that PK Subban doesn't have talent is retarded.

PK's got the dangles, speed, shot, strength and all that good stuff, but does he have the hockey smarts to be considered an elite talent in every sense of the word? Absolutely not.

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01-23-2013, 10:01 PM
  #688
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Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
Meehan/Subban are acting as if the notion of a RFA player without arbitrary rights (arbitration) has been removed from the new CBA. We can blame Meehan all we want (the guy is banking on Subban’s popularity) but, at the end of the day, it’s Subban who decides to stay home.

If Bergevin offered Subban better terms than Price (for instance: 2 years at 4M$ per season), I would see no reason to support PK here. Luckily for us (and the Canadiens!), Emelin, Diaz (especially him), Bouillon and even Kaberle were able, thus far, to pick up the slack while Subban sits at home. Not to mention Gorges and Markov playing 21-24 minutes per game.

Btw... Guy Carbonneau mentioned on RDS that Meehan’s suggestion to Subban was to ink a two years deal à la Del Zoto. He was referring to the length of Del Zoto’s contract. Carbonneau only had good words for Meehan.

Just for the record: 2 years at 4M$ per season... it would not be good enough?


EDIT:




You wrote "... then what is the point of having management...", I add: what's the point of this notion called "RFA with no arbritrary rights"? Was it removed from the new CBA?
This is fair, and if Subban isn't accepting that then I would understand if the team is looking to trade him.

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01-23-2013, 10:02 PM
  #689
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But if we end this by trading PK, i'll be ultra pissed.

Can this drama end, plz?

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01-23-2013, 10:03 PM
  #690
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
That is a red herring argument.

PK is (was) our #1 DMan because Markov was injured and the rest of our DMen would be fortunate to be bottom pairing or even worse, # 7 or #8.

Would PK be a #1 in Boston? Vancouver? Chicago?

Perspective is needed.

For Subban fans, he deserves the highest contract possible because he is the best DMan in Montreal.

For the rest of the NHL, Subban is not a #1 DMan and who has yet to prove he is worthy of a #1 DMan salary.

Yes, Bergevin is the Montreal GM but he must manage in the NHL where reality rules over emotion.

To those worried about trading Subban and not getting greater "value". Yes, be worried. For Subban's value is a lot higher in the eyes of Montreal fans than it is around the NHL in the GMs offices.
Subban would be the clear #1 dman in:

Buffalo
Toronto
New Jersey
New York R
New York I
Philadelphia
Tampa
Anaheim
Colorado
Columbus
Dallas
Edmonton
Montreal

That's worth a lot. And not only do we have a true #1 dman, we have one who is 23 years old, who has improved every year since being drafted - that is to say, one that is extremely likely to keep improving. You don't get that kind of value back in a trade.

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01-23-2013, 10:03 PM
  #691
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
ECWHSWI summed it up perfectly a few days ago.

Impact vs talent.

I am not going to rehash what he said regarding this but it was very appropriate regarding Subban.
I do not care what ECWHSWI said a few days ago. I have watched the Habs for more than 30 years. I can form my own opinion about PK. How many Habs defenseman in the last 30 years can play at this level while he is only 23 year old?

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01-23-2013, 10:03 PM
  #692
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Originally Posted by No Team Needed View Post
How selfish of Roy, winning another Conn Smythe. How me first to get in media arguments with Jeremy Roenick. He was also always insulting to his backup. Not my kind of player!

I'm still waiting for someone to say something like, "A real Hall of Famer like Ken Dryden wouldn't hold out for more money"



I guess I didn't have to wait too long...
Not sure I understood. I don't care how big some guys think they are, they make you win, that's all that matters.
PK isn't saying he's above the team though. He just thinks he's worth more money than Brandon freaking Prust. Can't say I disagree.

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01-23-2013, 10:04 PM
  #693
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Fine, so there's no policy. You actually can't have a policy. The only thing we can do as a GM is be careful of who you give your money to. That's all. Why the need of a policy? Are we in kindergarden here? Team first again...sorry this team first is build with individuals. The talented ones who get all the money, and the grinders who gets the rest.

As far as overhyping our players and checking out the trades forum? Sorry, that's not a good example. Every Habs player is overrated on this forum until...they changed teams. Subban is hated right now 'cause he's Subban AND a Habs player. The day he changes team, I can tell you that he stops being hated that much.
Hated is a big word, perhaps people here made him a much bigger star then he really is. He has 2 seasons under his belt, one where he was very good and the other where he was even better but just half of the season (he had a very average first half of the season).

He managed to get into trouble with just about any other player in the team *including the previous coaching staff*. Do I want him traded...no. It might do him well to sit for the remaining of the season. I see nothing wrong for the management to say prove you can play at the level you played in your first full year and we will sign you long term.

If he demonstrate that this philosophy does not work for him then I would not be against seeing him traded for a similar talent...I would not be against a 1 for 1 swap with Evender Kane.

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01-23-2013, 10:05 PM
  #694
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Wow, if the rumor of Subban asking 24M for 6 years is true and Bergevin is holding out only so that Subban agrees to a bridge contract, I'd say I'd put Bergevin on a comparable level of idiocy to Pierre Gauthier.

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01-23-2013, 10:06 PM
  #695
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Originally Posted by JustAHabFan View Post
I do not care what ECWHSWI said a few days ago. I have watched the Habs for more than 30 years. I can form my own opinion about PK. How many Habs defenseman in the last 30 years can play at this level while he is only 23 year old?
Chris Chelios and maybe Eric Desjardins are the only ones that come to mind for me.

Quote:
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Not sure I understood. I don't care how big some guys think they are, they make you win, that's all that matters.
Sorry, I was laying the sarcasm on pretty thick.

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01-23-2013, 10:06 PM
  #696
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Originally Posted by No Team Needed View Post
How selfish of Roy, winning another Conn Smythe. How me first to get in media arguments with Jeremy Roenick. He was also always insulting to his backup. Not my kind of player!

I'm still waiting for someone to say something like, "A real Hall of Famer like Ken Dryden wouldn't hold out for more money"



I guess I didn't have to wait too long...
No, you did not have to wait long at all.

You can post as much as you want about this subject but it will not change the fact that a sports TEAM that has players who are playing as individuals and not as a TEAM will never be champions.

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01-23-2013, 10:06 PM
  #697
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Not sure I understood. I don't care how big some guys think they are, they make you win, that's all that matters.
PK isn't saying he's above the team though. He just thinks he's worth more money than Brandon freaking Prust. Can't say I disagree.
And what did he made us win ....?

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01-23-2013, 10:07 PM
  #698
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Originally Posted by Lebowski View Post
Wow, if the rumor of Subban asking 24M for 6 years is true and Bergevin is holding out only so that Subban agrees to a bridge contract, I'd say I'd put Bergevin on a comparable level of idiocy to Pierre Gauthier.
I wish people would stop quoting this number, it's ridiculous and has no source.

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01-23-2013, 10:07 PM
  #699
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If somehow we could get Benn for Subban i'd trade him but not for O'reilly except if it would be O'reilly plus Johnson.

But those deal won't happen and i want to keep Pk.

But the gerant d'estrade in me likes to make impossible trades in my mind.


Seriously if 2,75 is real what a ****in joke this is no wonder why he didn't sign. If that's how Bergevin values him i doubt he signs here , and will soon request a trade aka lowering his value.

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01-23-2013, 10:08 PM
  #700
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Incredible what rds is trying to do with that lastest article. Their agenda is set, get Subban out of Montreal.
Every good player for this team has to go through some sort of ridiculous controversy. Pacioretty has to have his neck broken + be accused of faking concussions. Price has to be on the fence of being booed/chased out of town. Subban's turn.

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