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P.K. Subban Thread - 5.0 - The "Doughty Money Vs. Lowball Bridge" Edition

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Old
01-23-2013, 11:09 PM
  #701
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
You can post as much as you want about this subject but it will not change the fact that a sports TEAM that has players who are playing as individuals and not as a TEAM will never be champions.
Montreal as a TEAM could not win a Cup until an individual named Ken Dryden got the money he felt he deserved. During the 70s. When the Canadiens were one of the best teams ever assembled.

Play as a team all you want, I want winners. I also have a hard time seeing why the franchise Carey Price would low five Subban after every game if he thought he was some selfish distraction.

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01-23-2013, 11:11 PM
  #702
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Originally Posted by WG View Post
I still cannot believe that Gorges would go out and make some on the record comment re. a teammate's contract situation. If I recall correctly form a couple of days ago the takeaway message was that JG felt that a bridge deal was good enough for him so PK should take one too. I sincerely hope that was not Gorges' intent to put that out there (given his situation was completely different from PK's).

But if that is the takeaway message then I guess it's fair to ask Gorges and his buddies form the NHLPA why they didn't just accept the first ****** offer the owners gave and get hockey staring on time. By holding out for a better deal they cheated the fans of a half season of hockey, cheated all of the arena workers a salary, and cheated themselves out of half a year of salary, too.

I mean, you should just take what's offered, as it must be good enough, no?
Oh... how dare a guy like Gorges say something like that?
  • Other teams' fans don't think PK has proven enough yet = Habs haters
  • A teammate gives an opinion that isn't 100% favorable to PK = misquoted/I don't believe it/How dare he?/Source?
  • Some media source giving info about what they've learned and it's not favorable to PK = slandering campaign against PK.
  • Ex-coach saying PK has a lot to learn on and off the ice about team concepts = the guy's an idiot anyways. That's why he got fired!
  • Some teammates are not too fond of PK's ways and the way he handles himself in the dressing room = they're jealous or too stuck up
  • A GM has reservations about PK's development and his future ceiling, given all the inside info he has = he's an idiot and playing hardball to prove he's boss.
  • An NHL coach saying PK has a lot to learn on and off the ice and would like to work with him closely to better his development = what does he know? PK is the Habs' #1 defenseman

Yup, PK can do no wrong. Give him what he wants. He deserves it.
Oh no, there are no fanboys here. Just people that truly know what's behind the scenes and how to evaluate talent...

No middle ground with Habs fans. Just look up the old Komisarek threads to discover a similar phenomenon. Oh wait, how dare I compare Komi and PK? I don't know what I'm talking about if I compare the two...

I won't say anything else, because I'm not allowed to. And since I can't say everything, I'll get flamed. Heck, I'll get flamed in a few moments anyway.

Doesn't matter. All I'll say is: where there's smoke, there's fire.

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01-23-2013, 11:11 PM
  #703
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when are the montreal canadiens owners gonna wake up and realize they need to hire management based on actual credentials?hire the best hockey man and if he dont speak french get him a god damn translator.this is another embarassment ,and it ll never stop til we hire the RIGHT man to run this team.and dont get me goin on fudley an carriere.

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01-23-2013, 11:12 PM
  #704
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Originally Posted by haburger View Post
when are the montreal canadiens owners gonna wake up and realize they need to hire management based on actual credentials?hire the best hockey man and if he dont speak french get him a god damn translator.this is another embarassment ,and it ll never stop til we hire the RIGHT man to run this team.and dont get me goin on fudley an carriere.
Like Burke?

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Old
01-23-2013, 11:12 PM
  #705
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
There's a rumor that came out just before the Hot Stove came out with Bergevin's offer of 2y at about 2.75M per. That rumor said PK would agree to a 6y 24M deal.



As I said, there's a rumor that came out that PK would accept 6y 24M.
He also said in the article that he isn't asking for anything huge. The kid actually said that. He says he's not being unreasonable. So I have a very hard time believing he would say that and then ask for 6M+.



It's one thing to be #1 by default, it's another to be #1 by default and be effective at it, which he were.

Perspective isn't always applicable.

Would Karlsson be #1 in Nashville? Probably not. So?
You can say Markov is ahead of PK, making him our #2. Is this supposed to be a knock on him, as if Markov is just a decent Dman and PK isn't that great after all??
If that's true, Bergevin's a fool for not going for that.

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01-23-2013, 11:13 PM
  #706
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
There's a rumor that came out just before the Hot Stove came out with Bergevin's offer of 2y at about 2.75M per. That rumor said PK would agree to a 6y 24M deal.
I'd punch Bergevin in the face if he wouldn't sign PK to 6 years at 4M/yr. I sincerely doubt that to be the truth. No way I can defend that kind of offer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
It's one thing to be #1 by default, it's another to be #1 by default and be effective at it, which he were.
Effective? He did great relative to expectations, but a #1 has the offense and defense run through him. A #1 makes everyone around him better. PK managed to #1 us into last place. At this point, he's a great #2.

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01-23-2013, 11:13 PM
  #707
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
I wish people would stop quoting this number, it's ridiculous and has no source.
Thank you. No one knows what has been offered.

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01-23-2013, 11:15 PM
  #708
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Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
Bigger deals than those 2? Like who?
Not bigger than those two.
I said you don't have to be of the Karlsson or Doughty mold just to get a long deal after your ELC. There's a ton of players that got big deals coming off their ELC. There's no necessity to give out bridge contracts when you know you have a good young Dman. What's the point?? You want him to reach close to his max potential before signing him to a deal that will cost you twice as much as it would had you negotiated a longer deal right after the ELC?..
What's the risk really?

And again, from PK's own mouth, he isn't asking for anything unreasonable. A few days ago, rumor came out he was asking for 6y 24M. That is far from being unreasonable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
By default.
And he did remarkably well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
Saying that I said that PK Subban doesn't have talent is retarded.

PK's got the dangles, speed, shot, strength and all that good stuff, but does he have the hockey smarts to be considered an elite talent in every sense of the word? Absolutely not.
Absolutely not, as of last year, his sophomore year. Neither did any of the Elite Dmen in today's league after their sophomore year. In no way does this mean we should absolutely go with a bridge contract.
If this kid had shown Elite talent, as in, top 10 in the NHL, he'd be asking around 7+M for 8years. He isn't.

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01-23-2013, 11:15 PM
  #709
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
I wish people would stop quoting this number, it's ridiculous and has no source.
Seriously... who first mentioned those terms? Beside KrissE I mean!

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01-23-2013, 11:16 PM
  #710
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[QUOTE=JackZap;58203525]


burke has a resume as an nhl gm.bergevin ?

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01-23-2013, 11:16 PM
  #711
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Originally Posted by paddy View Post
[*]Some teammates are not too fond of PK's ways and the way he handles himself in the dressing room = they're jealous or too stuck up
Source? Only time I ever heard rumours of players complaining about Subban was in the summer of 2011 and it ended up being the UFA players who didn't like that Subban would show them up in practice by playing like it was a regular season game when they wanted to coast.

But please quote Hal Gill in that interview the media completely misinterpreted.

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01-23-2013, 11:17 PM
  #712
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I don't think Subban has crazy demands after reading the Stubbs article.

Here's a quote from the article :

Quote:
Subban catalogues maybe a half-dozen names of young players who are being handsomely paid, and you’d be stretching the truth if you suggested they mean more to their teams than Subban means to the Canadiens.
Read more: http://www.montrealgazette.com/Dave+...#ixzz2IrWxW3Gb

Who could these people be ?

Pick 6 out of those ? The last 6 ?

Doughty : 8 years 7M/per
Karlsson : 7 years 6.5M/per
Myers : 7 years 5.5M/per
Johnson : 7 years 4.3M/per
M-E Vlasic : 5 years 4.25M/per
J. Carlson : 6 years 4M/per
Hedman : 5 years 4M/per
Fowler : 5 years 4M/per

To me Subban, clearly fits in right around Myers.

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01-23-2013, 11:19 PM
  #713
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Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
I'd punch Bergevin in the face if he wouldn't sign PK to 6 years at 4M/yr. I sincerely doubt that to be the truth. No way I can defend that kind of offer.
And I would punch Bergevin in the face if he decided to keep PK at home because he was firm on signing him to a 2.75M per 2y deal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
Effective? He did great relative to expectations, but a #1 has the offense and defense run through him. A #1 makes everyone around him better. PK managed to #1 us into last place. At this point, he's a great #2.
PK managed us to last place. Really. That's your argument??
I guess Hall, Eberle, RNH aren't that elite either. All three together lead their team to even a worst position than ours.
That's ridiculous. PK did great regardless of expectations.

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01-23-2013, 11:20 PM
  #714
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Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
Effective? He did great relative to expectations, but a #1 has the offense and defense run through him. A #1 makes everyone around him better. PK managed to #1 us into last place. At this point, he's a great #2.
Montreal finished with 78pts. Anaheim finished with 80pts - is Getzlaf not a #1C? Is Perry not a #1W? Hiller not a #1G? New Jersey went to the cup final - was Zidlicky more of a #1D than Subban?

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01-23-2013, 11:21 PM
  #715
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exactly .somewhere around 4-5 mil per for 5 yrs.bergevin is getting some real bad advice from one of his counterparts.

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01-23-2013, 11:21 PM
  #716
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Thank you. No one knows what has been offered.
And that's why we're using *if*.

Regardless, most people on these boards have absolutely no problem taking unconfirmed rumors and turning into some sort of excuse to bash on Subban (read: the Doughty money stuff).

All I'm saying is that if THAT is what Subban is asking, Bergevin is the one to blame here. That would instantly turn into the best contract on our team, minus the likes of Desharnais who will get a major raise on his next contract.

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Old
01-23-2013, 11:21 PM
  #717
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
I don't think Subban has crazy demands after reading the Stubbs article.

Here's a quote from the article :


Read more: http://www.montrealgazette.com/Dave+...#ixzz2IrWxW3Gb

Who could these people be ?

Pick 6 out of those ? The last 6 ?

Doughty : 8 years 7M/per
Karlsson : 7 years 6.5M/per
Myers : 7 years 5.5M/per
Johnson : 7 years 4.3M/per
M-E Vlasic : 5 years 4.25M/per
J. Carlson : 6 years 4M/per
Hedman : 5 years 4M/per
Fowler : 5 years 4M/per

To me Subban, clearly fits in right around Myers.
Myers? 6'8" 227 lbs. Tyler Myers?

Myers is far more physical than Subban and can clear a crease much more effectively.

Sign the Carlson contract PK.

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01-23-2013, 11:23 PM
  #718
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i thought i d never ever say it but i wish we hired mcquire.this disaster has totally ruined bergevin for me.

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01-23-2013, 11:23 PM
  #719
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Thank you. No one knows what has been offered.
That never stopped you from going on a rant about how PK is selfish, nor did it stop people from speculation he wants Doughty cash (60M).
But note that I always mentioned, ''rumors'' or ''if''.
You on the other hand, was ready to pack PK's bag for him after the TO game.

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01-23-2013, 11:23 PM
  #720
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I guess Hall, Eberle, RNH aren't that elite either. All three together lead their team to even a worst position than ours.
That's ridiculous. PK did great regardless of expectations.
It's just amazing to see how our own fans turned against PK? Where are all these guys when PK help to shutdown Crosby in the playoff? They talk about team and then blame PK for last year disaster.

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01-23-2013, 11:23 PM
  #721
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I highly doubt Habs players have any issues with Subban wanting a good contract. We just had a lockout with many of the current Habs leadership commenting on them. And unlike the vocal parties, Subban has already surpassed them and has made peanuts in comparison.

I supported Bergevin's hire as GM and with him I felt an optimism for the club's future that died with the last regime. However, I cannot side with him and the direction this Subban contract negotiations is headed. If this gets botched and PK has to get traded for low value (ie Turris), it's going to be very hard to feel confident of how this team will be run in the future.

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01-23-2013, 11:24 PM
  #722
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Originally Posted by Lebowski View Post
And that's why we're using *if*.

Regardless, most people on these boards have absolutely no problem taking unconfirmed rumors and turning into some sort of excuse to bash on Subban (read: the Doughty money stuff).

All I'm saying is that if THAT is what Subban is asking, Bergevin is the one to blame here. That would instantly turn into the best contract on our team, minus the likes of Desharnais who will get a major raise on his next contract.
And people on these boards have no problem taking the unconfirmed low ball rumors and are using that to bash Bergevin.

See how if works and is completely useless.

IF I were married to Cameron Diaz, I would not be posting on a hockey message board right now.

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01-23-2013, 11:25 PM
  #723
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Myers? 6'8" 227 lbs. Tyler Myers?

Myers is far more physical than Subban and can clear a crease much more effectively.

Sign the Carlson contract PK.
did u see myers season last year?lol.

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01-23-2013, 11:27 PM
  #724
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
And people on these boards have no problem taking the unconfirmed low ball rumors and are using that to bash Bergevin.

See how if works and is completely useless.

IF I were married to Cameron Diaz, I would not be posting on a hockey message board right now.
And the low ball offer came out when? a few days ago? Before that, it was all PK wants this gigantic unreasonable deal, and is a greedy selfish player.

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01-23-2013, 11:28 PM
  #725
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Not bigger than those two.
I said you don't have to be of the Karlsson or Doughty mold just to get a long deal after your ELC. There's a ton of players that got big deals coming off their ELC. There's no necessity to give out bridge contracts when you know you have a good young Dman. What's the point?? You want him to reach close to his max potential before signing him to a deal that will cost you twice as much as it would had you negotiated a longer deal right after the ELC?..
What's the risk really?
How good is he though? I'm not blinded by the super-moves and wild windups, I mean I love it, but how good is he? How good will he be? It's hard to predict just how much his game will round out. I'll say that he's nowhere near where many of our posters feel he is. He's got incredible skill, but is still raw.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
And again, from PK's own mouth, he isn't asking for anything unreasonable. A few days ago, rumor came out he was asking for 6y 24M. That is far from being unreasonable.
What do you expect PK to say in his PR campaign?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Absolutely not, as of last year, his sophomore year. Neither did any of the Elite Dmen in today's league after their sophomore year. In no way does this mean we should absolutely go with a bridge contract.
If this kid had shown Elite talent, as in, top 10 in the NHL, he'd be asking around 7+M for 8years. He isn't.
The guys brought up in this thread were voted for or awarded the Norris trophy, while still on their ELCs, for a reason. They all have elite hockey sense. You can forget about PK ever being elite in that sense, although if he was, he'd be a modern version of Bobby Orr. I think the best we can hope for, will be for him to learn from "trial and error". As in, making mistakes over and over until he irons them out as flat as he can through dedication and hard work. In that case PK will still be one of the best dmen in the league, but he has a long way to go.

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