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01-23-2013, 10:23 PM
  #201
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I question if the lockout and last year's postseason made all of you forget what hockey is all about. This **** happens. It happens to every team. See how they respond. I can't believe the doom/gloom around here.

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01-23-2013, 10:28 PM
  #202
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Three games into Tangradi's first real stint as a top-6 and you'd think we're 0-3 and he's potted 10 own-goals.

Give it a bit. He's not Eberle, and he's not going to score in bunches or thrill with highlight reel goals or assists.

I'm not saying he's been great by any stretch, but he hasn't been nearly as awful as people would love to believe.

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01-23-2013, 10:29 PM
  #203
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We'll see. But I do hope you're right about his intentions this year. Strike that. I hope you're faith in his ability to execute at the deadline is well placed, because I'd really enjoy you telling me 'I told you so' (because that means he'll have gotten Sid a second wheel and maybe Geno a third wheel).
lack of results can't be pinned on a lack of effort. I mean, sure, we're fans, so we can do whatever the heck we want, but just because he doesn't land all the wingers doesn't mean he wasn't trying. Really hard!

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01-23-2013, 10:31 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
I question if the lockout and last year's postseason made all of you forget what hockey is all about. This **** happens. It happens to every team. See how they respond. I can't believe the doom/gloom around here.
I love you Cole, but if you want to read into gap control and make positive conclusions en masse after two games where we were honestly underwhelming but very effective on the PP, it would seem as reasonable to judge today's game on its own merits also.

For me, the only concern lingering after this game (where we could say 'bad bounces, good opposing goalie, poor reffing and costly individual mistakes' and be done with it), is that when things went south, I saw nothing encouraging from the bench. We were a hot mess.

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01-23-2013, 10:31 PM
  #205
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I couldn't see any good reason not be all in on Semin on a 1-yr deal. There was truly zero downside to it. It's one year, you give up no assets to acquire him, only thing it does is "block" Tangradi and make acquiring a very expensive winger a bit tougher.

Oh but the character concerns, et al, that were posted over and over again. You'd would of thought that Semin poisoned the drinking water in Washington. Shero should've been all over a one-year deal with Semin, now he's going to have to part with significant assets to fix the same problem that could of been potentially filled with just salary considerations.
maybe Shero tried to get him and he didn't want to come here. It doesn't seem all that unlikely that a guy like him would avoid playing for a coach like Bylsma.

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01-23-2013, 10:31 PM
  #206
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As frustrating as that was, I think it's just a matter of effort and focus.
Well that puts me off wanting to buy tickets since, after a lockout, that's what they give the fans for opening home night.

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01-23-2013, 10:34 PM
  #207
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Why does everyone just jump to conclusions about what Shero did or did not do? None of you know!

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01-23-2013, 10:34 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
I don't remember when Semin and Whitney signed... wait, I know that Semin was late into the process, but maybe Shero missed out on Whitney because he was all in on Parise, and perhaps he just didn't want Semin?

And maybe he's looking for something more long-term than a 1-year deal for Sid.

I don't think I can blame him for this past off-season, he swung for the fences, and his team is still in great position to improve even in the face of a significant drop in the cap.
This is exactly what happened IMO. And that's what my problem with Shero is, at some point you gotta drop the Parise ball, it's not like the same kind of thing happened with Hossa.
As far as Semin is concerned, I have no doubt he isn't the kind of player Shero likes but there was no downside taking him for the year, let me sums it up :
no assets to be given.
1 year deal.
we had the cap space to take him with an owner willing to spend.
right handed shot (which is painfully missing on our PP).
If Shero watched the playoffs last year then he should know Semin is willing to sacrifice for his team in the most important moments and be responsible defensively.
Talent/offensive weapon that draws attention away from our centers, give them someone to play with.

Anyway what is done is done, I just hope Shero will be able to trade for a top line winger come trade deadline but this look like a missed opportunity to me.

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01-23-2013, 10:34 PM
  #209
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Why does everyone just jump to conclusions about what Shero did or did not do? None of you know!
exactly. Just because we didn't get somebody doesn't mean we didn't try to get somebody. Just because we didn't make any trades at the deadline last year doesn't mean we didn't try.

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01-23-2013, 10:36 PM
  #210
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exactly. Just because we didn't get somebody doesn't mean we didn't try to get somebody. Just because we didn't make any trades at the deadline last year doesn't mean we didn't try.
based on prices last year, I'm glad Shero didn't make a trade. There was no long-term solution available, and no rental would have fixed their issues.

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01-23-2013, 10:37 PM
  #211
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Kulemin.

I deigned to suggest that those of us who have suggested he's well worth the overpayment it would take to get and put him with Malkin and Neal. Someone said 'he's not available'. I said he's a metaphor for the type of third wheel Malkin and Neal need. He said 'fine, then call him potato'.
Shero: We just overpaid to get the services of Kulemin. Malkin needs a compliment to Neal on his other wing.


Crosby: Ray, I know I am Canadian, and polite and all, but I am getting my Gun. Super Dooper is first, but if I were you I would start running now.

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01-23-2013, 10:41 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
I question if the lockout and last year's postseason made all of you forget what hockey is all about. This **** happens. It happens to every team. See how they respond. I can't believe the doom/gloom around here.
1. Of course.

2. You can't accuse me of suddenly introducing this 'Sid and Geno, two good wingers each' theme. I was doing it before Sid came back last year. I did it this preseason. I did it after both games this past weekend.

3. After all, we've had this discussion before . . . I'll handle personnel, you'll handle the X's and O's, and we'll be set.

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01-23-2013, 10:42 PM
  #213
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I like Fleury and could be classified as a "defender", but as far as problems he himself can control the only one last few years has been between his own ears.

Tangradi's problems aren't about the system. If he didn't play with an amazing center, how many points do you think he'd be able to muster? Hell at this rate I don't know if he'll hit 10 this year, and all he has to do is be actively involved in the game.
Perhaps I didn't express my thoughts that well ... First, I wasn't criticizing Flower. I was saying that the Pens organization doesn't have a great track record when it comes to developing prospects, and that could also be carried over to some of the inconsistencies in Fleury's game.

As for Tangradi, like I said, I don't think the guy is lacking in skill, potential or work ethic, I just don't think he's a fit for this team as coached by Byslma. On any line.

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01-23-2013, 10:43 PM
  #214
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I disagree with some on here. I love that Geno is getting in ET's face for his play. ET has literally been destroying Geno's work. He just doesn't mesh with his style of play. I would love to see him fit in the mold of malone, but he just doesn't his game doesn't flow well with malkin and neal. An aside to this is also the play of kunitz. While duper has looked fine with sid, kunitz has been a hot mess on his line. So here is my theory: switch kunitz and tangradi. Hear me out. We know kunitz works with Malkin/Neal. We know ET doesn't work with Malkin/Neal. We don't know if he will work with sid. I think Duper should stay with sid, if he leaves that line Sutter is the guy who should take his spot. I really feel he has all the right tools to play with sid. Who knows maybe the coaching staff sees things the same as i do. I'd love to see if something along the lines of:

Gradi/Duper-Sid-Duper/Sutter
Kunitz-Malkin-Neal
Cooke-Sutter/Jeffrey-Kennedy
Glass-Vitale-Adams

While I don't agree that Sid and Geno both need 2 good(2nd wheel) type wingers I think they both need 1. Geno has his (Neal) but Gradi is literally a negative factor on that line. I'm not saying he can't fix it but right now it isn't looking good. Sid has his 3rd wheel (duper) but no 2nd. kunitz just isn't getting it done right now. He is functioning as a good 3rd wheel player, maybe re-uniting him with Geno get's him going. Dunno. /Rant

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01-23-2013, 10:45 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by ss53mech View Post
I disagree with some on here. I love that Geno is getting in ET's face for his play. ET has literally been destroying Geno's work. He just doesn't mesh with his style of play. I would love to see him fit in the mold of malone, but he just doesn't his game doesn't flow well with malkin and neal. An aside to this is also the play of kunitz. While duper has looked fine with sid, kunitz has been a hot mess on his line. So here is my theory: switch kunitz and tangradi. Hear me out. We know kunitz works with Malkin/Neal. We know ET doesn't work with Malkin/Neal. We don't know if he will work with sid. I think Duper should stay with sid, if he leaves that line Sutter is the guy who should take his spot. I really feel he has all the right tools to play with sid. Who knows maybe the coaching staff sees things the same as i do. I'd love to see if something along the lines of:

Gradi/Duper-Sid-Duper/Sutter
Kunitz-Malkin-Neal
Cooke-Sutter/Jeffrey-Kennedy
Glass-Vitale-Adams

While I don't agree that Sid and Geno both need 2 good(2nd wheel) type wingers I think they both need 1. Geno has his (Neal) but Gradi is literally a negative factor on that line. I'm not saying he can't fix it but right now it isn't looking good. Sid has his 3rd wheel (duper) but no 2nd. kunitz just isn't getting it done right now. He is functioning as a good 3rd wheel player, maybe re-uniting him with Geno get's him going. Dunno. /Rant
I'm a bit confused. You say that Tangradi is literally destroying Geno's work. I won't touch on the poor use of literally, but instead say: so you're going to take a guy who is LITERALLY destroying Geno's work, and putting him on a line with Sid at the expense of an actual top-6 guy?

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01-23-2013, 10:45 PM
  #216
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This is exactly what happened IMO. And that's what my problem with Shero is, at some point you gotta drop the Parise ball, it's not like the same kind of thing happened with Hossa.
As far as Semin is concerned, I have no doubt he isn't the kind of player Shero likes but there was no downside taking him for the year, let me sums it up :
no assets to be given.
1 year deal.
we had the cap space to take him with an owner willing to spend.
right handed shot (which is painfully missing on our PP).
If Shero watched the playoffs last year then he should know Semin is willing to sacrifice for his team in the most important moments and be responsible defensively.
Talent/offensive weapon that draws attention away from our centers, give them someone to play with.

Anyway what is done is done, I just hope Shero will be able to trade for a top line winger come trade deadline but this look like a missed opportunity to me.
I would have liked to see Semin signed for sure. But I'd just like to point out that your problem with Shero is based almost entirely on speculation.

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01-23-2013, 10:45 PM
  #217
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Shero: We just overpaid to get the services of Kulemin. Malkin needs a compliment to Neal on his other wing.


Crosby: Ray, I know I am Canadian, and polite and all, but I am getting my Gun. Super Dooper is first, but if I were you I would start running now.
No offense, Jaded, but I think that I've been pretty ******* clear about what BOTH Sid and Geno need. One second wheel and one third wheel EACH.

Right now, Sid has two third wheels. Geno has a second and a fourth wheel.

I don't give a **** which one Shero addresses first. All that I'd like to see is for him to address BOTH.

Kulemin is an example of a third wheel for Geno.

Guys like Iginla-- the guys you keep your 1st and the other big assets for-- are examples of second wheels for Sid.

Does it matter which gets handled first as long as BOTH get handled?

As I keep saying, if the Pens march into the playoffs with arguably the best line in hockey centered by arguably the best player in hockey and then follow that with arguably the best line in hockey centered by arguably the best player in hockey, then ANYTHING is possible for this team, no matter what the other concerns might be.

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01-23-2013, 10:48 PM
  #218
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I actually think Harrington is going to be good. In two years, he's a 5/6. Maybe in three or four years, he's a 3/4. Of course, that's right around the time Geno turns 30, but I digress . . .
Serious question. Are you in love with Geno?

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01-23-2013, 10:48 PM
  #219
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Like I said, just trade for a dollar store top sixer near the deadline. Cheapest and easiest way to solve this.

At any rate, Tangradi with Sid would suck. I actually don't think Tangradi's top speed is bad (as evidenced by a YT video I still can't believe exists), but can you imagine him trying to accelerate to catch up to Sid when he winds it up near our blue line and bull rushes to the net? Plus Malkin is a better finesse player than Sid and might have better vision. There's a snowball's chance in hell Malkin will find Tangradi in open space for a tap in or something. I think there's almost 0% it will happen on Sid's line.

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01-23-2013, 10:48 PM
  #220
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lack of results can't be pinned on a lack of effort. I mean, sure, we're fans, so we can do whatever the heck we want, but just because he doesn't land all the wingers doesn't mean he wasn't trying. Really hard!
Here's where you lose me. Effort matters until it becomes an excuse for failure to execute. It isn't there yet. If there's more failure by this deadline and an early playoff exit, then I don't see how Shero still would be 100% secure in his position. It doesn't mean he'd be fired. It just means that I can't see Mario and Burkle being too enamored by hearing 'well, I tried to do something' after another wasted year of Sid and Geno.

And, again, I think Shero will be a player this year. At least I hope he will be . . .

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01-23-2013, 10:49 PM
  #221
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No offense, Jaded, but I think that I've been pretty ******* clear about what BOTH Sid and Geno need. One second wheel and one third wheel EACH.

Right now, Sid has two third wheels. Geno has a second and a fourth wheel.

I don't give a **** which one Shero addresses first. All that I'd like to see is for him to address BOTH.

Kulemin is an example of a third wheel for Geno.

Guys like Iginla-- the guys you keep your 1st and the other big assets for-- are examples of second wheels for Sid.

Does it matter which gets handled first as long as BOTH get handled?

As I keep saying, if the Pens march into the playoffs with arguably the best line in hockey centered by arguably the best player in hockey and then follow that with arguably the best line in hockey centered by arguably the best player in hockey, then ANYTHING is possible for this team, no matter what the other concerns might be.
He may not say it, but you know deep down Crosby's need had better be the first addressed. He has had a quality wing for, what, 2 months here since 2005? He is way overdue. We have had enough trouble getting one quality wing here let alone two. If you can do it, fine. But Crosby better be the priority.

It may never get addressed. In a cap world some part of the team is inevitably going to get screwed.

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01-23-2013, 10:50 PM
  #222
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Serious question. Are you in love with Geno?
No. But in three or four years, Sid isn't 30 yet. So, when I'm talking about one of these prospects making a significant impact before Sid OR Geno turns 30 . . .

Serious question: Do you follow, or are the polysyllabic words confusing?

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01-23-2013, 10:52 PM
  #223
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Three games into Tangradi's first real stint as a top-6 and you'd think we're 0-3 and he's potted 10 own-goals.

Give it a bit. He's not Eberle, and he's not going to score in bunches or thrill with highlight reel goals or assists.

I'm not saying he's been great by any stretch, but he hasn't been nearly as awful as people would love to believe.
The team needs a scapegoat. Martin is playing better... So blame the guy who hasn't solved the Pens ongoing winger problem after three games and barely played. Sounds reasonable. Gotta get rid of him and bring up all of those fwd prospects bursting through the pipe.

Hopefully he is put with Vitale soon and allowed to actually work his way through the lineup without the pressure of being the savior for a problem he didn't create.

Anyway...

I thought Despres looked sold tonight. He threw out a couple big hits and stripped Kessel on a 1-1 play. He was doing a much better job of angling his man to the boards and keeping himself between the man and the net. He was pulling up much better as well when his man hit the brakes, giving much less room than the last two games.

He had no big errors playing the puck and didnt try to overcompensate when Engo was struggling.

Really happy with his game tonight.

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01-23-2013, 10:54 PM
  #224
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He may not say it, but you know deep down Crosby's need had better be the first addressed. He has had a quality wing for, what, 2 months here since 2005? He is way overdue. We have had enough trouble getting one quality wing here let alone two. If you can do it, fine. But Crosby better be the priority.

It may never get addressed. In a cap world some part of the team is inevitably going to get screwed.
Jaded, they are TWO different needs, and they will cost TWO different types of packages.

Are you saying don't address the lesser concern until or unless you address the primary concern? That seems a little short sighted.

I've said NOTHING here but getting Sid a RW is the only absolute must for Ray Shero before this year's deadline. It doesn't change or affect the fact that finding Geno and Neal a third wheel is a secondary issue for this team or that adding to the defense may turn out to be an equal or more pressing concern.

****, I was saying the exact same thing LAST YEAR (get Sid real help, otherwise he won't exploit the advantage of teams keying on Kunitz-Geno-Neal), before Sid came back, when people like you were saying 'we're the highest scoring team in the league, we don't need more offense'.

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01-23-2013, 10:54 PM
  #225
ss53mech
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I'm a bit confused. You say that Tangradi is literally destroying Geno's work. I won't touch on the poor use of literally, but instead say: so you're going to take a guy who is LITERALLY destroying Geno's work, and putting him on a line with Sid at the expense of an actual top-6 guy?
I'll take the lump on my grammar. I can't really properly express my reasoning but I'll try. I think Tangradi would fit a simpler game. His work ethic is good but he just doesn't see the ice the same way Malkin does. So much board work done by Malkin is undone by ET not being in the right spot. Where as I think Sid plays a much more north south kind of game which I think ET will be able to support better.

This potentially accomplishes a number of things:

-Get's Kunitz going by re-uniting him with Malkin/Neal
-Gives Gradi another shot to put it together which if it work it gives us the option of either continued utilization of him on that line or increasing his value to package in a trade for a legit 2nd wheel for Sid. (I'll stop on that as that belongs in another thread)
-And his chemistry can not be worse with Sid than it is with Geno. I understand Sid won't be happy about it but I believe he would at least give the experiment as chance. (AFAIK we never actually played those 2 together have we?)

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