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Cole's Plus/Minus: Pens vs. Leafs - Armageddon at 2-1-0

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Old
01-23-2013, 11:16 PM
  #251
Mr Jiggyfly
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You know I don't think Tangradi didn't create the problem. He's exhibit A of how NOT to manage the development of a prospect. But, it's pretty clear that there were some issues in terms of his play beyond Geno not trusting him. Maybe you flip him and Glass for now. Maybe that's the cleanest way to handle it for now. Then again, you and I both know Tangradi is getting scratched and that Jeffrey will be in his place next game.

Great call, by the way, on Despres, and I'm glad that I'm not the only one who's noticed Engo's disappointing play (IMO, it's not just tonight).

Oh, by the way, I didn't give Vitale a PLUS tonight. No need. It's assumed.
I said right off the bat when Tangradi was going to be put with Malkin, I cringed. They don't mesh. It didn't work before, and won't now. Far too many people want this kid to be the answer right now and it's not going to happen.

He has to spend time in the bottom six learning how to play at this level. Just like jrs, he worked his way up slowly. Same deal in the A. Why do people think suddenly he will now jump into a top six role? This is why I *****ed last season... This is why I said give him his minutes on the fourth line so we don't have to deal with his early growing pains next season. By ****ing this kid over like DB did, it just delayed his growth.

I've consistently said the same thing. It is at least a two year process. He needs a minimum of a year in the bottom six learning how to play in this league. Then he can slowly be worked into a top six role.

Because of DB that year has not even started yet. Until he gets rolled over minutes game after game in a fixed role and is allowed to make mistakes without being benched, he will never develop.

This is a kid that can really help this team in a bottom six role for now, he just needs a coach that believes in him.

DB needs to watch how Philly does it. From Gagne to Richards, Carter, Giroux, Schenn, etc they all started in the bottom six and learned the game, then moved up.

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01-23-2013, 11:18 PM
  #252
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He needs to start hitting. The guy is 6'4 and like 225lbs.

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01-23-2013, 11:19 PM
  #253
Ogrezilla
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He needs to start hitting. The guy is 6'4 and like 225lbs.
and if he misses he gets benched

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01-23-2013, 11:20 PM
  #254
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and if he misses he gets benched
yelled at first. He deserves it. Literally responsible for the lockout

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01-23-2013, 11:21 PM
  #255
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Well if you are a player who fits the prototype of what a coach doesn't like -- along with the other reasons he might not want to play here like publicly admitting he doesn't like our players or possibly wanting less pressure/media attention -- isn't it just as likely that Shero did try to get him and he simply didn't want to come here? It's just as logical a conclusion as Shero not offering him anything at all. And there is just as much evidence to support both and that is one simple thing: he isn't here.

Its the same argument I brought up the other day about you saying it was a mistake not to trade for Malone when we have no idea if Malone was even available.
And that's a fair conclusion. So, I'll ask you too: At some point, trying but coming up empty, for whatever reason, isn't enough if the results aren't there. When is it for you?

For me, it's this season.

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01-23-2013, 11:21 PM
  #256
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I must have missed Semin floating in the playoffs last year.
Don't you know? reputation always prevails

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01-23-2013, 11:22 PM
  #257
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I said right off the bat when Tangradi was going to be put with Malkin, I cringed. They don't mesh. It didn't work before, and won't now. Far too many people want this kid to be the answer right now and it's not going to happen.

He has to spend time in the bottom six learning how to play at this level. Just like jrs, he worked his way up slowly. Same deal in the A. Why do people think suddenly he will now jump into a top six role? This is why I *****ed last season... This is why I said give him his minutes on the fourth line so we don't have to deal with his early growing pains next season. By ****ing this kid over like DB did, it just delayed his growth.

I've consistently said the same thing. It is at least a two year process. He needs a minimum of a year in the bottom six learning how to play in this league. Then he can slowly be worked into a top six role.

Because of DB that year has not even started yet. Until he gets rolled over minutes game after game in a fixed role and is allowed to make mistakes without being benched, he will never develop.

This is a kid that can really help this team in a bottom six role for now, he just needs a coach that believes in him.

DB needs to watch how Philly does it. From Gagne to Richards, Carter, Giroux, Schenn, etc they all started in the bottom six and learned the game, then moved up.
Totally preaching to the choir . . .

BTW, thank god Kumy only plays great these days when he's on the ice with Malkin. Otherwise, we wouldn't even have the pipe dream about acquiring him.

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01-23-2013, 11:22 PM
  #258
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And that's a fair conclusion. So, I'll ask you too: At some point, trying but coming up empty, for whatever reason, isn't enough if the results aren't there. When is it for you?

For me, it's this season.
I'm not trying to really evaluation Shero's job here. I'm just saying when specific examples are brought up and he is criticized based purely on speculation, it looks pretty ridiculous. It's hard to take someone seriously when they are basing an argument off of pure speculation whether their conclusion is right or not.

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01-23-2013, 11:25 PM
  #259
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+ Sid and Geno got on the scoreboard (goal scoring).

+ Engelland going toe to toe with Orr in one of the better scraps I've seen recently.

= Paul Martin had one of those games where he did some good stuff, but a few too many moments of his 2011-12 self showing up.

- Sid and Geno made numerous bad passes, some resulting in goals (Geno to JVR), some simply killing the PP.

- Kunitz. I thought Dupuis would be the blackhole of offense on that line, but instead it's Kunitz who looks like he's playing hot potato with the puck.

- The team as a whole did everything the opposite of what they did against the Flyers and Rangers earlier in the week.

- The refs. They weren't the reason for the loss -- being out worked and beaten in all 1 on 1 battles was -- but holy hell, boarding? If those are boarding calls, you might as well remove hitting from hockey.

- Tangradi. The first two games I thought he was okay. Not great, not bad. Tonight, though, he just didn't look good.

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01-23-2013, 11:25 PM
  #260
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I'm not trying to really evaluation Shero's job here. I'm just saying when specific examples are brought up and he is criticized based purely on speculation, it looks pretty ridiculous. It's hard to take someone seriously when they are basing an argument off of pure speculation whether their conclusion is right or not.
Well, I think ANYTHING except a deal that's done is going to be speculation, no? So, are you saying we only can evaluate Shero on the deals that he does make? In that case, I'll assume you agreed with Shero at the deadline last year when he said he liked his team now. Shall we evaluate him based on that instead?

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01-23-2013, 11:26 PM
  #261
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I said right off the bat when Tangradi was going to be put with Malkin, I cringed. They don't mesh. It didn't work before, and won't now. Far too many people want this kid to be the answer right now and it's not going to happen.

He has to spend time in the bottom six learning how to play at this level. Just like jrs, he worked his way up slowly. Same deal in the A. Why do people think suddenly he will now jump into a top six role? This is why I *****ed last season... This is why I said give him his minutes on the fourth line so we don't have to deal with his early growing pains next season. By ****ing this kid over like DB did, it just delayed his growth.

I've consistently said the same thing. It is at least a two year process. He needs a minimum of a year in the bottom six learning how to play in this league. Then he can slowly be worked into a top six role.

Because of DB that year has not even started yet. Until he gets rolled over minutes game after game in a fixed role and is allowed to make mistakes without being benched, he will never develop.

This is a kid that can really help this team in a bottom six role for now, he just needs a coach that believes in him.

DB needs to watch how Philly does it. From Gagne to Richards, Carter, Giroux, Schenn, etc they all started in the bottom six and learned the game, then moved up.
Tangradi needs to actually show something in whatever role he gets to stay with the big club. You put him on the 4th line, he does nothing. You put him on Malkin's, he does nothing.

There is something to what you're saying but I also think a good deal of it is Tangradi just sucks. Joe Vitale earned his way into the lineup by showing things in limited playing time. So did Tyler Kennedy, if anyone remembers back that far.

Yet for some reason a lot of this board throws a tizzy when Bylsma or the team keep Tangradi on the 4th line or out of the lineup. They've more than given him a chance. Like Brooks said earlier in the thread, there's a reason guys like Tangradi, Caputi, etc get benched or yo-yoed around: it's because they aren't very good hockey players.

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01-23-2013, 11:29 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by MonsterSurge View Post
He needs to start hitting. The guy is 6'4 and like 225lbs.
And how do you learn to hit NHL players who are faster, stronger and craftier than guys in the A?

Oh... You play bottom six minutes where you crash and bang all game. Sort of like how he and Vitale wrecked havoc on teams in the A playing on the third line.

Those two know how to play together and cycle the puck and grind it out. Once again, put them together and let him develop properly.

Everyone thinks Glass can do a better job than Tangradi, so throw him up there.

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01-23-2013, 11:29 PM
  #263
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Well, I think ANYTHING except a deal that's done is going to be speculation, no? So, are you saying we only can evaluate Shero on the deals that he does make? In that case, I'll assume you agreed with Shero at the deadline last year when he said he liked his team now. Shall we evaluate him based on that instead?
I'm saying posts like this
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I honestly just think that the cost was prohibitive. No reasonable deals out there. Though signing Semin would have cost nothing. Was stupid on Shero's part not to do it.
are ridiculous. That's all. Saying something like "Shero really should have addressed the wings by now" gets the same point across without the baseless speculation ruining the credibility of the opinion.

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01-23-2013, 11:31 PM
  #264
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...and lets give Phaneuf some credit. He had a really nice game tonight. The entire defense took away time and space.
As a Leaf fan, I'll put my hand up and say that that was probably one of Dion's best games as a Leaf. The nutter was everywhere.

That's still a good Penguins team though. Home opener jitters seemed to be right across the league, but there's so much talent on the roster that I wouldn't be nearly as upset or concerned as some of you guys are making it out to be.

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01-23-2013, 11:32 PM
  #265
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While we're on the topic of lines this is what I want to try:

Cooke-Sid-Tk
Kunitz-Malkin-Neal
Dupuis-Sutter-Jeffrey
Glass-Vitale-Adams

or

Dupuis-Sid-Tk
Kunitz-Malkin-Neal
Cooke-Sutter-Jeffrey
Glass-Vitale-Adams


Or call up Bennett and give him a shot. But if not, try the above lines. Cooke-Sid-TK worked last year for a while, and we all know that Malkin line works. It's not ideal and I'd prefer Bennett get a shot but if they insist on not calling him up those lines might be the best they can do for now.

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01-23-2013, 11:33 PM
  #266
Ogrezilla
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
And how do you learn to hit NHL players who are faster, stronger and craftier than guys in the A?

Oh... You play bottom six minutes where you crash and bang all game. Sort of like how he and Vitale wrecked havoc on teams in the A playing on the third line.

Those two know how to play together and cycle the puck and grind it out. Once again, put them together and let him develop properly.

Everyone thinks Glass can do a better job than Tangradi, so throw him up there.
Cooke to Geno's line, Tangradi to Vitale's line, Glass to Sutter's line. Go Pens.

Kunitz-Sid-Dupuis
Cooke-Malkin-Neal
Glass-Sutter-TK
Tangradi-Vitale-Adams

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01-23-2013, 11:34 PM
  #267
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No. But in three or four years, Sid isn't 30 yet. So, when I'm talking about one of these prospects making a significant impact before Sid OR Geno turns 30 . . .

Serious question: Do you follow, or are the polysyllabic words confusing?
I get what you're saying and I agree that it's of great importance to maximize Sid and Geno's prime by getting them each a pair of suitable wingers. I wasn't serious btw.

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01-23-2013, 11:34 PM
  #268
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Tangradi needs to actually show something in whatever role he gets to stay with the big club. You put him on the 4th line, he does nothing. You put him on Malkin's, he does nothing.

There is something to what you're saying but I also think a good deal of it is Tangradi just sucks. Joe Vitale earned his way into the lineup by showing things in limited playing time. So did Tyler Kennedy, if anyone remembers back that far.

Yet for some reason a lot of this board throws a tizzy when Bylsma or the team keep Tangradi on the 4th line or out of the lineup. They've more than given him a chance. Like Brooks said earlier in the thread, there's a reason guys like Tangradi, Caputi, etc get benched or yo-yoed around: it's because they aren't very good hockey players.
While you may be right and admittedly Jiggy is comparing Tangradi to several guys on the Flyers with much higher pedigree, the argument that you never really got a chance to find out with Tangradi because his development was so badly handled is no less reasonable (guys with comparable or lower pedigree who have been handled properly have become top six players before . . . quite a few to be precise).

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01-23-2013, 11:36 PM
  #269
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As a Leaf fan, I'll put my hand up and say that that was probably one of Dion's best games as a Leaf. The nutter was everywhere.

That's still a good Penguins team though. Home opener jitters seemed to be right across the league, but there's so much talent on the roster that I wouldn't be nearly as upset or concerned as some of you guys are making it out to be.
Phaneuf makes a lot of little plays that other guys just don't make. One of my favorite players.

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01-23-2013, 11:36 PM
  #270
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
Cooke to Geno's line, Tangradi to Vitale's line, Glass to Sutter's line. Go Pens.

Kunitz-Sid-Dupuis
Cooke-Malkin-Neal
Glass-Sutter-TK
Tangradi-Vitale-Adams
That would be 'Let's Go Pens'. Get it right, will you?

And that might make sense too at this point. I suggested flipping Glass and Tangradi, but I could see what you suggested.

Of course, if you wanted to give Tangradi one last shot, you could just flip Tangradi and Dupuis.

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01-23-2013, 11:43 PM
  #271
Mr Jiggyfly
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Tangradi needs to actually show something in whatever role he gets to stay with the big club. You put him on the 4th line, he does nothing. You put him on Malkin's, he does nothing.

There is something to what you're saying but I also think a good deal of it is Tangradi just sucks. Joe Vitale earned his way into the lineup by showing things in limited playing time. So did Tyler Kennedy, if anyone remembers back that far.

Yet for some reason a lot of this board throws a tizzy when Bylsma or the team keep Tangradi on the 4th line or out of the lineup. They've more than given him a chance. Like Brooks said earlier in the thread, there's a reason guys like Tangradi, Caputi, etc get benched or yo-yoed around: it's because they aren't very good hockey players.
Show me when Tangradi ever, once got rolled over minutes on the fourth line. Don't bother because I will just reference MB's post showing how he got screwed. Caputi got his chance in Toronto. I watched almost every game and he got steady minutes and showed he wasn't strong enough for the NHL.

Tangradi showed enough last season to get regular shifts, but still got benched.

Christ, B Schenn played like hot garbage, went 20 games without a point and Philly kept feeding him minutes. He was avg over 14 mins a night during that dreadful skid. There was even a "Schenn is a bust" thread on the main boards BEFORE the kid hit his scoreless streak. He was putrid.

Philly knows how to develop fwds very well, which is why I've watched them very closely for the last 12 years. Their philosophy isn't rocket surgery: you feed them steady minutes in your bottom six and live with their mistakes. Then move them up if their play warrants it. They also know kids can make a big impact in the bottom six so you don't errode their confidence with steady benchings.

If anyone doubts what a young kid can do in a bottom six role, rewatch what Schenn and Coots did to the Pens in their bottom six roles.


Last edited by Mr Jiggyfly: 01-23-2013 at 11:48 PM.
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01-23-2013, 11:43 PM
  #272
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
And how do you learn to hit NHL players who are faster, stronger and craftier than guys in the A?

Oh... You play bottom six minutes where you crash and bang all game. Sort of like how he and Vitale wrecked havoc on teams in the A playing on the third line.

Those two know how to play together and cycle the puck and grind it out. Once again, put them together and let him develop properly.

Everyone thinks Glass can do a better job than Tangradi, so throw him up there.
BTW, Jiggy, off topic, kudos to you for mentioning MacArthur yesterday as a potential nice under the radar target. The guys isn't a flash player, but, as you said, he does a lot of little things well and brings more skill to the table than any Penguins forward not named Crosby, Malkin, or Neal.

Frankly, either he OR Kumy would be the Pens 4th best forward right now.

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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Show me when Tangradi ever, once got rolled over minutes on the fourth line. Don't bother because I will just reference MB's post showing how he got screwed.

He showed enough last season to get regular shifts, but still got benched.

Christ, B Schenn played like hot garbage, went 20 games without a point and Philly kept feeding him minutes. He was avg over 14 mins a night during that dreadful skid. There was even a "Schenn is a bust" thread on the main boards BEFORE the kid hit his scoreless streak. He was putrid.

Philly knows how to develop fwds very well, which is why I've watched them very closely for the last 12 years. Their philosophy isn't rocket surgery: you feed them steady minutes in your bottom six and live with their mistakes. Then move them up if their play warrants it. They also know kids can make a big impact in the bottom six so you don't errode their confidence with steady benchings.

If anyone doubts what a young kid can do in a bottom six role, rewatch what Schenn and Coots did to the Pens in their bottom six roles.
Jiggy, the flaw in this argument isn't that you're right. You are right. Rather, the question for me is whether the damage is done. I don't know. Maybe he CAN rediscover his game on a fourth line. Thing is, this organization just so thoroughly ******* the pooch on this one that I have my doubts. It makes me worry about how they're going to handle Bennett.

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01-23-2013, 11:48 PM
  #273
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
I'm not trying to really evaluation Shero's job here. I'm just saying when specific examples are brought up and he is criticized based purely on speculation, it looks pretty ridiculous. It's hard to take someone seriously when they are basing an argument off of pure speculation whether their conclusion is right or not.
Speculation aside, Shero will be judged on results.
There's actually a pretty evident hole in our top 6 and while it won't make us miss the playoffs, I can't see us going far into the playoffs as it is. There are some other issues but this is absolutely problemo n°1.

Keeping in mind that Shero is usually at his best when it comes to making a deadline deal, we'll see what Shero does, or doesn't, regarding this problem until trade deadline and we'll see how it affect us in Playoffs.
Then we will evaluate Shero's job for this season, or maybe we won't, "because, you know, he tried and we can't know for sure what happened".. well, that kind of excuses.

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01-24-2013, 12:05 AM
  #274
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
BTW, Jiggy, off topic, kudos to you for mentioning MacArthur yesterday as a potential nice under the radar target. The guys isn't a flash player, but, as you said, he does a lot of little things well and brings more skill to the table than any Penguins forward not named Crosby, Malkin, or Neal.

Frankly, either he OR Kumy would be the Pens 4th best forward right now.
I think people got a good look at him tonight. He was on the puck all night causing problems and being crafty with it.

Quote:
Jiggy, the flaw in this argument isn't that you're right. You are right. Rather, the question for me is whether the damage is done. I don't know. Maybe he CAN rediscover his game on a fourth line. Thing is, this organization just so thoroughly ******* the pooch on this one that I have my doubts. It makes me worry about how they're going to handle Bennett.
People have given up on him because they want so desperately for him to solve the winger problem. I have always seen him as a guy who will be a valuable third liner if he doesn't work out in the top six.

I watched him grind it out in jrs and the A before he moved to the top six in those leagues. I know he can play in the bottom six and help. You don't cast a commodity like that away because you are pissed off he isn't Kevin Stevens Redux at 23. Stevens wasn't even Stevens until he was 26. Kunitz was thrown on waivers by the Ducks and then Atl of all teams before he figured things out with the Ducks again at 27.

Tangradi needs to be brought through the bottom six and slowly worked into the top six. He is not going to be ready for a couple of yrs most likely. If people don't like that, tough ****. For the last time, it isn't his fault this team has no top six wingers. He can't magically skip the NHL learning curve because people are impatient and spoiled.

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01-24-2013, 12:07 AM
  #275
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I said right off the bat when Tangradi was going to be put with Malkin, I cringed. They don't mesh. It didn't work before, and won't now. Far too many people want this kid to be the answer right now and it's not going to happen.

He has to spend time in the bottom six learning how to play at this level. Just like jrs, he worked his way up slowly. Same deal in the A. Why do people think suddenly he will now jump into a top six role? This is why I *****ed last season... This is why I said give him his minutes on the fourth line so we don't have to deal with his early growing pains next season. By ****ing this kid over like DB did, it just delayed his growth.

I've consistently said the same thing. It is at least a two year process. He needs a minimum of a year in the bottom six learning how to play in this league. Then he can slowly be worked into a top six role.

Because of DB that year has not even started yet. Until he gets rolled over minutes game after game in a fixed role and is allowed to make mistakes without being benched, he will never develop.

This is a kid that can really help this team in a bottom six role for now, he just needs a coach that believes in him.

DB needs to watch how Philly does it. From Gagne to Richards, Carter, Giroux, Schenn, etc they all started in the bottom six and learned the game, then moved up.
Hold on here Jiggy... Do you mean to tell me Tangradi can't develop by his AMAZING 5 minutes of ice time? Seriously, he should have had at least two hatties with all that work he's had : )

Bylsma has a real problem developing FORWARDS. Despres get solid work every game and on the 3rd line with the same partner.

Tangradi gets 1 shift... sits 3 shifts... 1 shift on. It's flat out stupid. Tangradi hasn't shown me anything and it's early but DB put a line of GLASS - GENO - NEAL... seriously WTF

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