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P.K. Subban Thread - 5.0 - The "Doughty Money Vs. Lowball Bridge" Edition

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01-24-2013, 01:31 AM
  #851
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Originally Posted by Carboneer View Post
Confidence is good to have as an athlete, obviously.

But, you know what they say about too much of a good thing (or of anything for that matter).

If I'm a Habs player and I'm reading this about PK hyping himself up while hes not on the ice helping my team win, I'm not impressed one bit.
I do not understand your point. If Price, Gionta, Plekanec, etc have already got nice contract, why would they upset with PK because PK is fighting for a good contract too. Do they expect PK to sign for peanut so that he can be with the team?

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01-24-2013, 01:32 AM
  #852
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Originally Posted by No Team Needed View Post
Chelios trade has more in common with the Ribeiro trade.

This will probably be more like the Roy trade or the Turgeon trade. He knows he can't replace Subban so he'll try to get pieces for him that hopefully add up to more.



If I'm Alex Galchenyuk, I'm expecting Marc Bergevin to low ball me on my first RFA negoation and I'm signing the first offer sheet that comes my way.
...but, as many people in the thread have already alluded to, it is speculation that he has been low balled. Who knows what the actual offers are. Maybe its PK asking for the moon, while Bergevin is offering him a deal you would consider fair.

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01-24-2013, 01:33 AM
  #853
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I do not understand your point. If Price, Gionta, Plekanec, etc have already got nice contract, why would they upset with PK because PK is fighting for a good contract too. Do they expect PK to sign for peanut so that he can be with the team?
No im just saying that PK not playing hurts their chance to win the Stanley Cup. At the end of the day, do you think Gionta and Co. are cheering for PK to get a huge payday or to get back on the ice ASAP? Pretty obvious answer..

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01-24-2013, 01:34 AM
  #854
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he's a good player

and deserves good money
however not as much as like Doughty i suppose

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01-24-2013, 01:34 AM
  #855
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simple math, there's no voting, no evaluation or anything, you score the most goals you get the trophy...


look what up ? oh yeah, the advanced stats that will (for example) tell me that the player who I think spent the game with the puck on his stick has a good possession time ? really ? or maybe I didnt see during a game that players such as Gill couldnt do any better that send the puck along the board and that when paired with someone better the other guy had to do the transition ?

thank god there's stats to tell me what I saw really happened



Good, we both agree Gill is a top pairing D
I'm not sure what kind of point you think you're making with Gill. You're being pretty unclear here.

Subban playing with Gill allowed him to concentrate solely on the things he did well, letting him play in a role he normally had no business playing and doing far better at it than his own merits. That's all making your team mates better is, unless you thought Markov would magically loan Souray and Streit a portion of his talent when they PPed together.

And my point is obviously that a losing team can have good elements. Blaming parts for the failures of the whole is obviously fallacious. NHL hockey is too big a game for the efforts of a single player to bring team success.

If you want to know what happened you can't just rely on your eyes. Your memory simply isn't good enough and if your a fan emotions will screw you up the first time you see it. You have to check what the results really were and also watch again.

Especially if you want to make cross team comparisons. No one can watch enough of the league and remember all of it too the point you can compare everything by eye.

There is also the fact that your model for what is a good hockey player can be out of sync with the realities of it. If your eye doesn't match results then you might need to recheck your eyes.


Lastly, if anyone disparages looking at stats and then goes and makes an argument based on goals and assists later, I'm calling you're a hypocrite. Your just using worse and less reliable numbers in favour of better ones.

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01-24-2013, 01:34 AM
  #856
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Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
So what do you mean by that post? I'm curious.
read the posts in here. It's obvious.

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01-24-2013, 01:35 AM
  #857
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Originally Posted by Carboneer View Post
...but, as many people in the thread have already alluded to, it is speculation that he has been low balled. Who knows what the actual offers are. Maybe its PK asking for the moon, while Bergevin is offering him a deal you would consider fair.
People need to stop playing little dance of how we don't know the details. Everyone is discussing based on rumours and speculations by analysts. Can we stop it please?

Majority of reports say Bergevin is trying to get a bridge contract under or around $3M. Majority of reports say Subban is looking anywhere between $4M and $6M on a long term contract.

I don't consider any offer from Bergevin less than what Cam Fowler is about to make (5 years at $4M per) to be fair.

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01-24-2013, 01:35 AM
  #858
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Originally Posted by Carboneer View Post
...but, as many people in the thread have already alluded to, it is speculation that he has been low balled. Who knows what the actual offers are. Maybe its PK asking for the moon, while Bergevin is offering him a deal you would consider fair.
It depends on who you are listening too. We know that MB wants bridge contract but PK wants a long term contract. The only thing we don't know is the dollar amount. PK has said that he is asking for reasonable amount and I would believe him.

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01-24-2013, 01:36 AM
  #859
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
I'm not sure what kind of point you think you're making with Gill. You're being pretty unclear here.

Subban playing with Gill allowed him to concentrate solely on the things he did well, letting him play in a role he normally had no business playing and doing far better at it than his own merits. That's all making your team mates better is, unless you thought Markov would magically loan Souray and Streit a portion of his talent when they PPed together.

And my point is obviously that a losing team can have good elements. Blaming parts for the failures of the whole is obviously fallacious. NHL hockey is too big a game for the efforts of a single player to bring team success.

If you want to know what happened you can't just rely on your eyes. Your memory simply isn't good enough and if your a fan emotions will screw you up the first time you see it. You have to check what the results really were and also watch again.

Especially if you want to make cross team comparisons. No one can watch enough of the league and remember all of it too the point you can compare everything by eye.

There is also the fact that your model for what is a good hockey player can be out of sync with the realities of it. If your eye doesn't match results then you might need to recheck your eyes.


Lastly, if anyone disparages looking at stats and then goes and makes an argument based on goals and assists later, I'm calling you're a hypocrite. Your just using worse and less reliable numbers in favour of better ones.
huh, you're quoting the wrong person here.

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01-24-2013, 01:36 AM
  #860
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
read the posts in here. It's obvious.
No I want to hear from you what you meant by that post.

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01-24-2013, 01:36 AM
  #861
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Originally Posted by JustAHabFan View Post
It depends on who you are listening too. We know that MB wants bridge contract but PK wants a long term contract. The only thing we don't know is the dollar amount. PK has said that he is asking for reasonable amount and I would believe him.
and if MB comes out saying he offered a fair deal, would you believe him too ?

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01-24-2013, 01:40 AM
  #862
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
and if MB comes out saying he offered a fair deal, would you believe him too ?
I LOLed, was gona write exactly this.

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01-24-2013, 01:42 AM
  #863
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
You're shifting goalposts.

You asked how he can be a 1 if his team didn't do well.
No I didn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
The Habs got upper half results from their top duo.
No they didn't. Transition wasn't great, and our breakouts weren't always clean, lots of off the board and out, couldn't beat the forecheck. Offensive zone time and pressure from the points wasn't great either.

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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
But you weren't asking what they'll do in the future. You were asking why the team failed with them. The results clearly show that the failure had nothing to do with them.
I don't know what you are talking about. I never said that they were the anchors that dragged our team down.

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01-24-2013, 01:42 AM
  #864
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
and if MB comes out saying he offered a fair deal, would you believe him too ?
PK has always said what on his mind so I tend to believe him. The fact that MB insisted on bridge contract without any exception is telling me something is not right with our management. My interpretation is that they do not trust PK and wanted to see more. If that's the case, they do not have any other option but trading him.

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01-24-2013, 01:42 AM
  #865
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Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
I think the biggest thing that is hurting/hurts Subban is the fact he wasn't a high first round pick. If he was a top 10 pick I think he'd get his deal. Not fair at all IMO.
That's an excellent point.

People discriminate against 2nd round picks their entire careers.

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01-24-2013, 01:45 AM
  #866
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That's an excellent point.

People discriminate against 2nd round picks their entire careers.
Shea Weber anyone?

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01-24-2013, 01:46 AM
  #867
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Originally Posted by JustAHabFan View Post
PK has always said what on his mind so I tend to believe him. The fact that MB insisted on bridge contract without any exception is telling me something is not right with our management. My interpretation is that they do not trust PK and wanted to see more. If that's the case, they do not have any other option but trading him.
a simple YES or NO would have been just fine.

reality is, your mind is set, no matter what management does, unless they 100% agree to P.K. demands, that they're in the wrong.

even though you dont know the numbers, P.K. is asking for a fair deal, and MB is lowballing him.


re; 2013, the year P.K. became bigger than the Habs.

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01-24-2013, 01:47 AM
  #868
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Shea Weber anyone?
not enough discrimination against him, I'd say 3rd rounders get it worse, like Lidstrom

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01-24-2013, 01:49 AM
  #869
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Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
No I want to hear from you what you meant by that post.
post 865.

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01-24-2013, 01:49 AM
  #870
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He's a supremely confident guy.

Is that a bad thing in an athlete?

He's obviously not too big of a jerk since pretty much the entire Canadian entertainment industry has fallen completely in love with him...
You're right about that, but I believe that at this point Subban needs to understand that although he is certainly very valuable to our team and compares quite nicely to almost all the defensemen in his age group (especially his playoffs defense and his sheer domination of the penalty kill), he has not really proven himself to be a good #1 defenseman yet (in my opinion) and should not get paid accordingly as of now. As far as I see it, he's a great #2 but is pretty average as far as #1 defensemen go, which is not really a knock on him considering his age.

While the length of the contract can be debated both ways with solid arguments, I truly believe that Subban's offense (namely his own shortcomings relative to the powerplay and his predictable wind-up slapshot, among other things) and his discipline (or lack thereof) hasn't quite reached a level which would award him the type of money he feels entitled to.

Now don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the guy and think that anything lower than 4.5 milions on a relatively short (2-3 years) deal would be perfect as far as the money and term of the contract go. He instanly betters our whole defensive corps.

IMO, paying Subban upwards of 5.5 millions (up to 6 millions as per Subban's demands as far as I've heard) for a lengthy number of years in these conditions, while he hasn't proven that his offense can take the next step forward and while we hold his rights as a RFA fully, with no arbitration, would be asinine.

It would set a precedent for our young players to follow in the upcoming years (IE no ''bridge contracts'') and send the wrong message to older guys who've had second contracts (Price and Pacioretty), but the worst part of it all would be that it opens the door to further hold-outs, illustrating Marc Bergevin's desperation and inability to hold firm and true; ''Give an inch and they take a mile'' as the proverb says.

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01-24-2013, 01:50 AM
  #871
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
not enough discrimination against him, I'd say 3rd rounders get it worse, like Lidstrom
how about a 5th rounder who is still holding out , Jamie Benn..

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01-24-2013, 01:50 AM
  #872
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
post 865.
Did you mean post 867?

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01-24-2013, 01:50 AM
  #873
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
a simple YES or NO would have been just fine.

reality is, your mind is set, no matter what management does, unless they 100% agree to P.K. demands, that they're in the wrong.

even though you dont know the numbers, P.K. is asking for a fair deal, and MB is lowballing him.


re; 2013, the year P.K. became bigger than the Habs.
I am not lying. I am taking PK side. The same as you taking Habs' management side. I can not convince you. The same as you are not convince me. We have to agree to disagree.

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01-24-2013, 01:52 AM
  #874
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
a simple YES or NO would have been just fine.

reality is, your mind is set, no matter what management does, unless they 100% agree to P.K. demands, that they're in the wrong.

even though you dont know the numbers, P.K. is asking for a fair deal, and MB is lowballing him.


re; 2013, the year P.K. became bigger than the Habs.
If management is offering him less than $4M and/or refuses to give him any more than two years, management is in the wrong.

If management is offering him $4M or more but two years or less and Subban is turning it down, I'll be the first to say Subban needs to think straight.

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01-24-2013, 01:56 AM
  #875
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Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
And truth is their is noone in the system with Subbans upside. Beauieu is maybe, MAYBE, a 2nd pairing 1st PP guy. Subban is a first pairing, first PP, second PK guy already. And he brings a physical element.
Oh please! Beaulieu is more physical than you'd think. He has sky high potential, you just haven't been told so by the media yet.

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After reading the Stubbs article, seems like PK is really a huge fan of PK. Don't really remember a player hyping himself up like that to the media before... is Jamie Benn doing the same in Dallas right now? (honest question, I do not know...)

He's for sure going to rub people the wrong way... sure he says he prefers to play out the rest of his career as a Hab, but he also does not really seem to mind playing for another team since it could just be chalked up as "the business of hockey". TBH, sorta leaves a sour taste in my mouth while reading that as a die hard Habs fan.

Thoughts?
I agree with everything you said.
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Originally Posted by No Team Needed View Post
If I'm Alex Galchenyuk, I'm expecting Marc Bergevin to low ball me on my first RFA negoation and I'm signing the first offer sheet that comes my way.
Thank God you aren't Chucky.

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