HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

P.K. Subban Thread - 5.0 - The "Doughty Money Vs. Lowball Bridge" Edition

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-24-2013, 12:57 AM
  #876
JustAHabFan
Registered User
 
JustAHabFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 4,541
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ekof232 View Post

Now don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the guy and think that anything lower than 4.5 milions on a relatively short (2-3 years) deal would be perfect as far as the money and term of the contract go. He instanly betters our whole defeinve corps.

IMO, paying Subban upwards of 5.5 millions (up to 6 millions as per Subban's demands as far as I've heard) for a lengthy number of years in these conditions, while he hasn't proven that his offense can take the next step forward and while we hold his rights as a RFA fully, with no arbitration, would be asinine.

It would set a precedent for our young players to follow in the upcoming years (IE no ''bridge contracts'') and send the wrong message to older guys who've had second contracts (Price and Pacioretty), but the worst part of it all would be that it opens the door to further hold-outs, illustrating Marc Bergevin's desperation and inability to hold firm and true; ''Give an inch and they take a mile'' as the proverb says.
You just don't know the number. Your heard the rumors about 6M and Subban said that he asked for reasonable amount. Nobody knows the number PK is asking for, so you can not make any assumption at this point. I am taking side with PK because I do think he has shown enough in the last 2 years to warrant a long term contract. You have to remmember Patches and Prices did not show much after the ELC. PK case is different.

JustAHabFan is offline  
Old
01-24-2013, 12:57 AM
  #877
Carboneer
Registered User
 
Carboneer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 332
vCash: 500
I don't understand how you can take PK's side, or how you can take the Habs' side... we don't know the facts.

All that I know is that a lot of fans are going to get pissed off at PK because they think he's being a selfish baby, whether its warranted or not, and the longer this drags on the harder its going to be for people to forget this whole thing.

Carboneer is offline  
Old
01-24-2013, 01:00 AM
  #878
JustAHabFan
Registered User
 
JustAHabFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 4,541
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carboneer View Post
I don't understand how you can take PK's side, or how you can take the Habs' side... we don't know the facts.

All that I know is that a lot of fans are going to get pissed off at PK because they think he's being a selfish baby, whether its warranted or not, and the longer this drags on the harder its going to be for people to forget this whole thing.
It's boiling down to whether PK has shown you enough in the last 2 years to warrant a long term contract. I think he did. The fact that MB insisted on bridge contract told us that he did not think PK has shown enough.

JustAHabFan is offline  
Old
01-24-2013, 01:02 AM
  #879
Habaneros
Habs Cup champs 2010
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,700
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carboneer View Post
I don't understand how you can take PK's side, or how you can take the Habs' side... we don't know the facts.

All that I know is that a lot of fans are going to get pissed off at PK because they think he's being a selfish baby, whether its warranted or not, and the longer this drags on the harder its going to be for people to forget this whole thing.
no need to take any side..
fans love pk....pk love habs...

as i said , his agent will meet with Marc Friday to move this along....

will see him soon , no later than Jets game Jan 29....until then dont rack your brains too hard,.

Habaneros is offline  
Old
01-24-2013, 01:02 AM
  #880
No Team Needed
Registered User
 
No Team Needed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: essex
Posts: 3,261
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carboneer View Post
I don't understand how you can take PK's side, or how you can take the Habs' side... we don't know the facts.

All that I know is that a lot of fans are going to get pissed off at PK because they think he's being a selfish baby, whether its warranted or not, and the longer this drags on the harder its going to be for people to forget this whole thing.
Oh please. This is the NHL we're talking about. Is anyone still complaining about the lockout? The moment PK signs this will all be forgotten.

No Team Needed is offline  
Old
01-24-2013, 01:03 AM
  #881
Carboneer
Registered User
 
Carboneer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 332
vCash: 500
And do you guys really think Bergevin did not offer PK a longer term deal than 2 or 3 years? I find that hard to believe... IMO, he offered him a 2 or 3 year deal with a significant annual salary, and a long term deal with a lesser annual salary. Anyways, thats what I would do as the Habs GM. PK, you choose: prove yourself for 2 years and make a good salary and we'll see if you deserve your huge pay day, or take my long term deal for less money per year but at least you are guaranteed that salary for all those years as security.

It seems obvious to me that PK wants the best of both worlds, which is understandable, but which also explains the disdain some fans have for him at the moment.

Carboneer is offline  
Old
01-24-2013, 01:06 AM
  #882
Carboneer
Registered User
 
Carboneer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 332
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by No Team Needed View Post
Oh please. This is the NHL we're talking about. Is anyone still complaining about the lockout? The moment PK signs this will all be forgotten.
not the fans on the RDS talkbacks, they wont forget hahaha they love to hate it seems

Carboneer is offline  
Old
01-24-2013, 01:08 AM
  #883
No Team Needed
Registered User
 
No Team Needed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: essex
Posts: 3,261
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carboneer View Post
not the fans on the RDS talkbacks, they wont forget hahaha they love to hate it seems
Reading RDS Talkbacks is like skipping your medication. The more you do it, the crazier you get.

No Team Needed is offline  
Old
01-24-2013, 01:09 AM
  #884
ekof232
Registered User
 
ekof232's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Montreal, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 262
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustAHabFan View Post
It's boiling down to whether PK has shown you enough in the last 2 years to warrant a long term contract. I think he did. The fact that MB insisted on bridge contract told us that he did not think PK has shown enough.
I think it has more to do about setting a positive precedent (for the team) with youngsters that would eventually benefit the team long-term than it has to do with Bergevin's trust in Subban personally.

I believe Bergevin is trying to institute a ''culture'', a tradition by accumulation of precedents that would allow the Canadiens in later years to retain young talent at a cheaper price in a relatively short term and better evaluate them before handing the bank over to them.

Ultimately it all boils down to wether or not you believe that a young player should or not bite the bullet (while still getting paid handsomely) and help the team that allowed him to show his talents to the world before cashing in.

ekof232 is offline  
Old
01-24-2013, 01:10 AM
  #885
Carboneer
Registered User
 
Carboneer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 332
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by No Team Needed View Post
Reading RDS Talkbacks is like skipping your medication. The more you do it, the crazier you get.
but there's something so addictive about it... make yourself a bag of popcorn and just let yourself be entertained hahah

Carboneer is offline  
Old
01-24-2013, 01:10 AM
  #886
JustAHabFan
Registered User
 
JustAHabFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 4,541
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carboneer View Post
And do you guys really think Bergevin did not offer PK a longer term deal than 2 or 3 years? I find that hard to believe... IMO, he offered him a 2 or 3 year deal with a significant annual salary, and a long term deal with a lesser annual salary. Anyways, thats what I would do as the Habs GM. PK, you choose: prove yourself for 2 years and make a good salary and we'll see if you deserve your huge pay day, or take my long term deal for less money per year but at least you are guaranteed that salary for all those years as security.

It seems obvious to me that PK wants the best of both worlds, which is understandable, but which also explains the disdain some fans have for him at the moment.
What we know is MB insisted on bridge contract and PK is asking for long term. We do not know how much MB put on the bridge contract and we do not know how much PK is asking for in the long term contract. Bobby Mac said that gap is like 2.5 to 3M and he believed PK will be traded because the gap is too big. Myself, I do not know why quite a few of fans here hated PK for this contract dispute.

JustAHabFan is offline  
Old
01-24-2013, 01:12 AM
  #887
No Team Needed
Registered User
 
No Team Needed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: essex
Posts: 3,261
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustAHabFan View Post
What we know is MB insisted on bridge contract and PK is asking for long term. We do not know how much MB put on the bridge contract and we do not know how much PK is asking for in the long term contract. Bobby Mac said that gap is like 2.5 to 3M and he believed PK will be traded because the gap is too big. Myself, I do not know why quite a few of fans here hated PK for this contract dispute.
McKenzie probably puts too much stock into remembering how Ryan Smyth got traded because he wanted three M&Ms from the M&M bag and Edmonton was only willing to hand him two.

No Team Needed is offline  
Old
01-24-2013, 01:13 AM
  #888
ekof232
Registered User
 
ekof232's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Montreal, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 262
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carboneer View Post
but there's something so addictive about it... make yourself a bag of popcorn and just let yourself be entertained hahah
... and eventually end up in a medical ward throwing your own feces at nursemaids (or eating it) without any prior recollection of your life...

ekof232 is offline  
Old
01-24-2013, 01:14 AM
  #889
Habaneros
Habs Cup champs 2010
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,700
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustAHabFan View Post
What we know is MB insisted on bridge contract and PK is asking for long term. We do not know how much MB put on the bridge contract and we do not know how much PK is asking for in the long term contract. Bobby Mac said that gap is like 2.5 to 3M and he believed PK will be traded because the gap is too big. Myself, I do not know why quite a few of fans here hated PK for this contract dispute.
I can't imagine the backlash/flack trading PK would create in Montreal....it will be a huge distraction to the team after the trade, and likely sink the team ...

anyways ,will see him soon in Montreal.

Habaneros is offline  
Old
01-24-2013, 01:18 AM
  #890
JustAHabFan
Registered User
 
JustAHabFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 4,541
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ekof232 View Post
I think it has more to do about setting a positive precedent (for the team) with youngsters that would eventually benefit the team long-term than it has to do with Bergevin's trust in Subban personally.

I believe Bergevin is trying to institute a ''culture'', a tradition by accumulation of precedents that would allow the Canadiens in later years to retain young talent at a cheaper price in a relatively short term and better evaluate them before handing the bank over to them.

Ultimately it all boils down to wether or not you believe that a young player should or not bite the bullet (while still getting paid handsomely) and help the team that allowed him to show his talents to the world before cashing in.
You can not treat every player the same way. Is it worth it to lose one of your best defenseman over "principle". If Galchenyuk will be execellent the next 2 years, would you trade him because he will ask for a long term contract instead of a bridge contract? If you have traded away PK, then you will have to trade Galchenyuk too for "principle" reason?

JustAHabFan is offline  
Old
01-24-2013, 01:20 AM
  #891
Daffy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 575
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habaneros View Post
I can't imagine the backlash/flack trading PK would create in Montreal....it will be a huge distraction to the team after the trade, and likely sink the team ...

anyways ,will see him soon in Montreal.
Don't want to start a riot lol, but Subban will be traded. Just a matter of time now. Don't shoot the messenger.

Daffy is offline  
Old
01-24-2013, 01:24 AM
  #892
JustAHabFan
Registered User
 
JustAHabFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 4,541
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daffy View Post
Don't want to start a riot lol, but Subban will be traded. Just a matter of time now. Don't shoot the messenger.
How do you know? You should be shot for spreading false rumors.

JustAHabFan is offline  
Old
01-24-2013, 01:26 AM
  #893
Habaneros
Habs Cup champs 2010
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,700
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daffy View Post
Don't want to start a riot lol, but Subban will be traded. Just a matter of time now. Don't shoot the messenger.

it doesn't take much to start a real one in Montreal....(cars on fire windows smashed out etc) history has shown this ...lol



I like and respect Bob McKenzie,...but just remember he had Habs finishing first last year too....


Again PK is so popular in Montreal, your really playing with fire to send him away .....i would mark danger on this type of action ...

Subban will be on ice for Jets game, i expect a 2-3 min PK PK CHANT

Habaneros is offline  
Old
01-24-2013, 01:27 AM
  #894
Daffy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 575
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustAHabFan View Post
How do you know? You should be shot for spreading false rumors.
Classy response. You give Habs fans a bad name. And who said anything about false rumours?

Daffy is offline  
Old
01-24-2013, 01:39 AM
  #895
Talks to Goalposts
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,610
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
huh, you're quoting the wrong person here.
Sorry, what you were talking about wasn't exactly clear to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
No I didn't.
I don't know what you are talking about. I never said that they were the anchors that dragged our team down.
You were making an argument that they weren't good enough to be a top pair because the team finished 15th. If they had playoff first pairing worthy results then your argument doesn't follow. They can only effect what happens when they are on the ice. If their results are the same of that of first pairings on competitive teams, then the difference between the Habs and competitive teams must be elsewhere, not in the 1st pairing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
No they didn't. Transition wasn't great, and our breakouts weren't always clean, lots of off the board and out, couldn't beat the forecheck. Offensive zone time and pressure from the points wasn't great either.
On aggregate their offensive zone time and transition wasn't great, but you can't attribute that to Subban. He dominated offensive zone/transition to start the season when they were playing well on ES and his decline mirrored that of the team. The decline of the 2nd and 3rd lines and the change in puck movement system post Martin are attributible for this result, not the 1st pair which was largely a constant. Effectively you're blaming the players for Randypuck.

This can happen to the best of pairings. Team weaknesses meant that the Weber-Suter pairing was playing about even on puck possession in the same role as Gorges-Subban while the rest of the squad was getting pounded at ES on puck control and praying for Rinne to save them. We can recognize them as a great pairing by how well they were doing under these circumstances.

For what he can do in a good system, rewatch the Habs-Bruins system. Bruins found it nearly impossible to forecheck Gill-Subban successfully. They were too good at getting lose pucks and transitioning the puck up. And Subban's skating and strength made it a pain to get the puck off him.

Talks to Goalposts is offline  
Old
01-24-2013, 01:41 AM
  #896
yianik
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,892
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustAHabFan View Post
You can not treat every player the same way. Is it worth it to lose one of your best defenseman over "principle". If Galchenyuk will be execellent the next 2 years, would you trade him because he will ask for a long term contract instead of a bridge contract? If you have traded away PK, then you will have to trade Galchenyuk too for "principle" reason?
This actually might be where we are at, and the Habs are very principled. The Habs have historically walked the walk on the idea no player is above the team (and that you do not disgrace the C) . See Roy, though he apologized for his actions he was gone, out of principle. So yes, MB could take the view that its Habs policy for always a bridge contract and it must be accepted by every player as , from his viewpoint, it is in the Habs interests .
Personally I see this as a disaster if it comes to a trade. While by the numbers there have to be 30 number one d-men in the league, guys who actually are elite and can affect the outcome of a game are fewer, ala Markov or Chelios. PK isnt there yet, but he absolutely has that potential and he is the only one in our system with that potential. That kind of player may be the rarest to find in hockey and we could be set for 6-10 years with PK in that role. We will not make out well on a trade. On a one for one we wouldnt get back another young, d-man with number one potential , so wed get something other, which wouldnt fill this top need, or wed get lesser pieces, which means we gave up the best asset. I get principle, but I hate it at times.

yianik is offline  
Old
01-24-2013, 01:49 AM
  #897
JustAHabFan
Registered User
 
JustAHabFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 4,541
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by yianik View Post
This actually might be where we are at, and the Habs are very principled. The Habs have historically walked the walk on the idea no player is above the team (and that you do not disgrace the C) . See Roy, though he apologized for his actions he was gone, out of principle. So yes, MB could take the view that its Habs policy for always a bridge contract and it must be accepted by every player as , from his viewpoint, it is in the Habs interests .
Personally I see this as a disaster if it comes to a trade. While by the numbers there have to be 30 number one d-men in the league, guys who actually are elite and can affect the outcome of a game are fewer, ala Markov or Chelios. PK isnt there yet, but he absolutely has that potential and he is the only one in our system with that potential. That kind of player may be the rarest to find in hockey and we could be set for 6-10 years with PK in that role. We will not make out well on a trade. On a one for one we wouldnt get back another young, d-man with number one potential , so wed get something other, which wouldnt fill this top need, or wed get lesser pieces, which means we gave up the best asset. I get principle, but I hate it at times.
I also hated these principles. Gainey had the "principle" of no contact talk during the season. If you do not talk to the player about contract during the season then how do you know if the player want to resign or not. In case, they do not want to resign, you simply let them walk instead of trading them at the deadline to get prospects, draft picks. These "principles" are recipe for disasters.

JustAHabFan is offline  
Old
01-24-2013, 01:52 AM
  #898
Ozymandias
#firetherrien
 
Ozymandias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hockey Mecca
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,438
vCash: 500
I'm surprised no one is asking why hasn't PK received an offer sheet from another team yet? Or has he, and has not signed it yet, and is why it's taking so much time, using it as a bargaining chip?

How many offer sheets go by without getting signed, do we hear about those offersheets that some players (in all probability) refuse to sign?

If no offersheet has been made to Subban, what gives? I'm not denying PK's talent, I'm a fan, but I find it odd that he hasn't signed an offersheet up to this point. Is it because of his reputation? Is it because he's not receiving any? Or because he outright refuses to go anywhere but still wants to use it to bargain?

What gives?

Ozymandias is offline  
Old
01-24-2013, 01:55 AM
  #899
JustAHabFan
Registered User
 
JustAHabFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 4,541
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
I'm surprised no one is asking why hasn't PK received an offer sheet from another team yet? Or has he, and has not signed it yet, and is why it's taking so much time, using it as a bargaining chip?

How many offer sheets go by without getting signed, do we hear about those offersheets that some players (in all probability) refuse to sign?

If no offersheet has been made to Subban, what gives? I'm not denying PK's talent, I'm a fan, but I find it odd that he hasn't signed an offersheet up to this point. Is it because of his reputation? Is it because he's not receiving any? Or because he outright refuses to go anywhere but still wants to use it to bargain?

What gives?
Coming out of a lockout, I don't think there will be an offer sheet for anybody. I do not hear Benn get any offer sheet neither.

JustAHabFan is offline  
Old
01-24-2013, 01:58 AM
  #900
DAChampion
Registered User
 
DAChampion's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Canberra, Australia
Country: Australia
Posts: 6,511
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pi View Post
You can't give Subban 6M...he's a great player for you guys but once you give him 6M, next minute you know Galchenyuk is demanding 6M right out of his RFA contract.
If Galchenyuk deserves 6 million right out of his ELC, then give him 6 million.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Pronman with some snark:
Thanks for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
No we don't. If he blows this, we know all we need to know.
Agreed, if Bergevin loses Subban, then he is a bad GM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
Thanks for the link. Subban comes off as a level-headed guy in the article.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Both Stan Bowman and Bergevin himself said that Bergevin is "not a numbers guy"
In other words he's probably not very smart.

In my experience ability to deal with numbers correlates sharply with intelligence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockjngo View Post
I think Philly and Detroit will go hard for Subban if he's available.

Brayden Schenn
Jakub Voracek
Sean Couturier
For
PK Subban
Lars Eller
Bergevin is working hard to drive down Subban's value. We'll be lucky to get Voracek in a 1 for 1 swap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HomaridII View Post
I am not sure why I find it surprising, but the lack of objectivity when it comes to Subban is amazing.

To those who worship him, he can do no wrong. To those who don't, he can do very little right.

And there seems to be very little middle ground. Amazing.
Congratulations, you've convinced yourself you're smarter than both sides even though you have nothing to contribute.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
That is a red herring argument.

PK is (was) our #1 DMan because Markov was injured and the rest of our DMen would be fortunate to be bottom pairing or even worse, # 7 or #8.

Would PK be a #1 in Boston? Vancouver? Chicago?

Perspective is needed.

For Subban fans, he deserves the highest contract possible because he is the best DMan in Montreal.

For the rest of the NHL, Subban is not a #1 DMan and who has yet to prove he is worthy of a #1 DMan salary.

Yes, Bergevin is the Montreal GM but he must manage in the NHL where reality rules over emotion.

To those worried about trading Subban and not getting greater "value". Yes, be worried. For Subban's value is a lot higher in the eyes of Montreal fans than it is around the NHL in the GMs offices.
You don't think Subban is a true #1?

OK, then he's a #2. Pay him as such.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
And on the flip side, Tinordi and Beaulieu could tell Bergevin that they want $7 million dollar contracts after their 2nd season and hold out just to prove they are serious.
Tinordi and Beaulieu should eventually be paid what they're worth, not lowballed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lebowski View Post
Wow, if the rumor of Subban asking 24M for 6 years is true and Bergevin is holding out only so that Subban agrees to a bridge contract, I'd say I'd put Bergevin on a comparable level of idiocy to Pierre Gauthier.
No, that would make him dumber than Gauthier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
There was 9 years between drafting Markov and drafting Subban. Says maybe another one is headed our way about 2016? Add 5 years for development, it's 2021.

Anyone want to wave goodbye to PK then wait to 2021 for his replacement?

It's binary - either lose Subban or break a team management policy.


You know, if you shake a tree in Montreal 3 Canadians hockey executives will fall from the branches. You would think with a think tank that big someone would be advising a little more strongly.
Don't forget Ryan McDonagh, Chris Chelios, and Eric Desjardins :-) Habs draft good dmen fairly regularly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
In fact the only things Subban and TO have in common is that they are black athletes.
I'm happy someone had the courage to point that out.

DAChampion is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:57 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.