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Top 10 Finnish players of all time.

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Old
01-23-2013, 03:12 PM
  #51
the edler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merya View Post
Bure better than Selänne? That's a bold statement. Selänne has better career by far. Better peak also. Prime is pretty even
it's not a bold statement, Selänne's and Bure's peaks and primes are very similar, the only thing Selänne really has an advantage on is longevity because he was more long time fortunate with his injuries, but longevity alone doesn't make you a better player

i think what it comes down to between Selänne and Bure is personal preferences, personally i prefer Bure because i think he was the slightly better game breaker and better in the playoffs, i also think he was the better stickhandler and a bit more versatile, plus he was more fun to watch

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Selänne also never sat out half a season because of money
this has nothing to do with how good a hockey player someone is but Bure didn't sit out because of money, he did because he held a grudge against the management

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01-23-2013, 03:13 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merya View Post
Bure better than Selänne? That's a bold statement. Selänne has better career by far. Better peak also. Prime is pretty even, except Selänne's prime lasted longer the first time, and had another "prime" at 35+. (arguably still going on with having most points in the horrid ducks team last season)
Selänne also never sat out half a season because of money.
Whatever else you might say, Bure was definitely a better goal scorer at his peak than Selanne was. Selanne might have been a better all-round offensive player though.

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01-23-2013, 05:41 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Whatever else you might say, Bure was definitely a better goal scorer at his peak than Selanne was.
Seasons in Top Five in Scoring
Bure: 1993 (5), 1994 (1), 1998 (3), 2000 (1), 2001 (1)
Selanne: 1993 (1), 1997 (2), 1998 (1), 1999 (1), 2007 (3)

1993: Selanne, 73 Goals + 3 Empty Net Goals (84 Games)
1993: Bure, 59 Goals + 1 Empty Net Goal (83 Games)
1994: Bure, 56 Goals + 4 Empty Net Goals (76 Games)

1997: Selanne, 48 Goals + 3 Empty Net Goals (78 Games)
1998: Selanne, 50 Goals + 2 Empty Net Goals (73 Games)
1998: Bure, 48 Goals + 3 Empty Net Goals (82 Games)
1999: Selanne, 45 Goals + 2 Empty Net Goals (75 Games)
2000: Bure, 49 Goals + 9 Empty Net Goals (74 Games)
2001: Bure, 55 Goals + 4 Empty Net Goals (82 Games)

2007: Selanne, 47 Goals + 1 Empty Net Goal (82 Games)


I don't see any reason to say Bure was conclusively better at his peak.

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01-23-2013, 05:52 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Seasons in Top Five in Scoring
Bure: 1993 (5), 1994 (1), 1998 (3), 2000 (1), 2001 (1)
Selanne: 1993 (1), 1997 (2), 1998 (1), 1999 (1), 2007 (3)

1993: Selanne, 73 Goals + 3 Empty Net Goals (84 Games)
1993: Bure, 59 Goals + 1 Empty Net Goal (83 Games)
1994: Bure, 56 Goals + 4 Empty Net Goals (76 Games)

1997: Selanne, 48 Goals + 3 Empty Net Goals (78 Games)
1998: Selanne, 50 Goals + 2 Empty Net Goals (73 Games)
1998: Bure, 48 Goals + 3 Empty Net Goals (82 Games)
1999: Selanne, 45 Goals + 2 Empty Net Goals (75 Games)
2000: Bure, 49 Goals + 9 Empty Net Goals (74 Games)
2001: Bure, 55 Goals + 4 Empty Net Goals (82 Games)

2007: Selanne, 47 Goals + 1 Empty Net Goal (82 Games)


I don't see any reason to say Bure was conclusively better at his peak.
And I don't see any reason to say that Selanne was conclusively better at his peak either, but I'm sure you maintain that stance.

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01-23-2013, 05:53 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
And I don't see any reason to say that Selanne was conclusively better at his peak either, but I'm sure you maintain that stance.
I don't. Remember what they say about assuming things, Ohashi_Jouzu...

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01-23-2013, 05:54 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Seasons in Top Five in Scoring
Bure: 1993 (5), 1994 (1), 1998 (3), 2000 (1), 2001 (1)
Selanne: 1993 (1), 1997 (2), 1998 (1), 1999 (1), 2007 (3)

1993: Selanne, 73 Goals + 3 Empty Net Goals (84 Games)
1993: Bure, 59 Goals + 1 Empty Net Goal (83 Games)
1994: Bure, 56 Goals + 4 Empty Net Goals (76 Games)

1997: Selanne, 48 Goals + 3 Empty Net Goals (78 Games)
1998: Selanne, 50 Goals + 2 Empty Net Goals (73 Games)
1998: Bure, 48 Goals + 3 Empty Net Goals (82 Games)
1999: Selanne, 45 Goals + 2 Empty Net Goals (75 Games)
2000: Bure, 49 Goals + 9 Empty Net Goals (74 Games)
2001: Bure, 55 Goals + 4 Empty Net Goals (82 Games)

2007: Selanne, 47 Goals + 1 Empty Net Goal (82 Games)


I don't see any reason to say Bure was conclusively better at his peak.
i assume he's going by margin of victory.

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Old
01-23-2013, 06:00 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
i assume he's going by margin of victory.
Even then, it's a stretch that requires a firm head in the sand as to the 2000 scoring race, with Jagr missing so many more games and Bure hitting so many empty nets.

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01-23-2013, 06:03 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
I don't. Remember what they say about assuming things, Ohashi_Jouzu...
Let me remind you of a sample of your very own words:

Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Bure - clearly the inferior goal scorer in 1998
...
a three-year sample in which Teemu Selanne is the only answer
The only answer. Don't know how else you're asking us to interpret that, unless you're implying that the 3+ year window in question doesn't encapsulate Selanne at his peak "goal scoring ability".

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01-23-2013, 06:06 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Let me remind you of a sample of your very own words:



The only answer. Don't know how else you're asking us to interpret that, unless you're implying that the 3+ year window in question doesn't encapsulate Selanne at his peak "goal scoring ability".
1998 doesn't encapsulate Bure at his peak.

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01-23-2013, 06:13 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
1998 doesn't encapsulate Bure at his peak.
Ability, or production? Because to my recollection the language used has been "best" goal scorer, not "most prolific" or "productive by a specific date" goal scorer, and Bure was perfectly healthy in February of 1998, if not 100% "in rhythm". That your opinion is in favour of Selanne is fine, and defensible. That you completely dismiss the strength of claims that can be made for others, like Bure in particular, and then try to claim that you've done no such thing, makes absolutely no sense to me on either level.

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01-23-2013, 06:21 PM
  #61
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I realize a quick scan of hockey-reference.com shows 3 first place goals finishes for both, but look at the margins:

Bure 1994: +3 over Brett Hull.
Bure 2000: +14 over Owen Nolan.
Bure 2001: +5 over Joe Sakic.

Selanne 1993: Tied with Alexander Mogilny
Selanne 1998: Tied with Peter Bondra (and 1 goal ahead of Bure)
Selanne 1999: +3 over a 3 way tie of Yashin/Amonte/Jagr

Selanne was a better playmaker than Bure (and therefore, you might be able to argue he was a better overall offensive player, though I think that one is a tossup). He has much better longevity. But Bure was the better goal scorer.

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01-23-2013, 06:22 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Ability, or production? Because to my recollection the language used has been "best" goal scorer, not "most prolific" or "productive by a specific date" goal scorer, and Bure was perfectly healthy in February of 1998, if not 100% "in rhythm". That your opinion is in favour of Selanne is fine, and defensible. That you completely dismiss the strength of claims that can be made for others, like Bure in particular, and then try to claim that you've done no such thing, makes absolutely no sense to me on either level.
If you didn't have a history of antagonizing me on HOH, maybe I'd have more patience for you.

Teemu Selanne was in the middle of a very good three-season peak in 1998. Bure was not. Selanne was the better goal scorer at this time. By a decent margin, considering Bure's inability to string together quality seasons in the years prior - as well as getting outscored despite playing nine additional games. When Bure would hit his peak years later in 2000 and 2001, he was on a similar level to Selanne in 1998. But Pavel Bure in 1998 is no more Pavel Bure in 2001 than Teemu Selanne in 2001 is Teemu Selanne in 1998.

Nothing that I have said is in conflict with itself. But for some reason, you would rather discuss the English language with me than hockey.

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01-23-2013, 06:23 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I realize a quick scan of hockey-reference.com shows 3 first place goals finishes for both, but look at the margins:

Bure 1994: +3 over Brett Hull.
Bure 2000: +14 over Owen Nolan.
Bure 2001: +5 over Joe Sakic.

Selanne 1993: Tied with Alexander Mogilny
Selanne 1998: Tied with Peter Bondra (and 1 goal ahead of Bure)
Selanne 1999: +3 over a 3 way tie of Yashin/Amonte/Jagr

Selanne was a better playmaker than Bure and has much better longevity. But Bure was the better goal scorer.
It's so simple when you completely ignore GP and ENG, eh? Why go the extra mile, even when I've given it to you.

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01-23-2013, 06:40 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
If you didn't have a history of antagonizing me on HOH, maybe I'd have more patience for you.

Teemu Selanne was in the middle of a very good three-season peak in 1998. Bure was not. Selanne was the better goal scorer at this time. By a decent margin, considering Bure's inability to string together quality seasons in the years prior - as well as getting outscored despite playing nine additional games. When Bure would hit his peak years later in 2000 and 2001, he was on a similar level to Selanne in 1998. But Pavel Bure in 1998 is no more Pavel Bure in 2001 than Teemu Selanne in 2001 is Teemu Selanne in 1998.

Nothing that I have said is in conflict with itself. But for some reason, you would rather discuss the English language with me than hockey.
Hey, if you're not just a stats counter who puts labels like "best" on whoever technically sits at the top of a column in a particular year, now is the chance to defend your words and reasoning.

And I'm far from just discussing the English language with you. If "antagonizing" means calling people out on claims in the absolute, when a situation seems arguable at best, then yeah, you can expect antagonizing posts from me.

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Old
01-23-2013, 08:33 PM
  #65
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maybe i shouldn't be asking this out loud, but with three simultaneous teemu threads right now, and yet more teemu discussion in the bondra thread maybe i should: why is it that selanne supporters are usually the most aggressive and defensive posters on this board?

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01-23-2013, 11:33 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Merya View Post
Why?
In that hypothetical scenario, healthy Selänne would've banked 3-4 seasons of 40-50+ goals, won couple Richard trophies. Why wouldn't that hypothetical Selänne be in consideration for the best RW ever? He'd be over Jagr by a hundred goals in that scenario.
He would have never gotten around to the Howe level. That is jsut given. There is no way a hundred more goals and 200 more points is going to put Selanne in the discussion of the greatest player ever. I am starting to have a feeling that you might not know about Howe?
Now, giving him hundred goals over Jagr MIGHT and that is a big stretch, make the discussion between them more interesting. But Selanne would still be facing a guy who has 5 Art Ross trophies and the best offensive output since Gretzky and Lemieux.

Jagr is, without scratching head, the best offensive forward after Lemieux.

I really can't see Selanne competing with Jagr even without injuries. But who knows? Maybe he would.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merya View Post
Bure better than Selänne? That's a bold statement. Selänne has better career by far. Better peak also. Prime is pretty even, except Selänne's prime lasted longer the first time, and had another "prime" at 35+. (arguably still going on with having most points in the horrid ducks team last season)
Selänne also never sat out half a season because of money.
I ment that Bure was better goal scorer. Which is not by much, but it should be pretty much "non-debatable". Selanne has everything else going on for him tough, so I rank him higher than Bure. All i said was that his goal scoring ability was a small notch above Selanne.

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:30 AM
  #67
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This. He is the king of the underrated. Incredible player and I miss him on the national team.
Seriously...watching the end of his career here in Buffalo it was crazy how smart of a player he was...

His is really a case where stats have nothing to do with his greatness...super glad he's stuck around Buffalo in a coaching capacity

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01-24-2013, 02:29 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
maybe i shouldn't be asking this out loud, but with three simultaneous teemu threads right now, and yet more teemu discussion in the bondra thread maybe i should: why is it that selanne supporters are usually the most aggressive and defensive posters on this board?
Speaking personally, three years ago I had to spend a thread debating against the idea that Teemu Selanne:

1. Was not a HOF lock (MXD)
2. Made Joe Thornton look like Maurice Richard in the playoffs (Nalyd)
3. Had no value outside of being a marquee name (Nalyd)
4. Was a passenger on the 2007 Ducks (DS)
5. Wasn't better than Bure at anything but longevity (TDMM)
6. Isn't a Top 100 player (TDMM)


So if I'm a bit touchy, it's because I know his ability is not respected enough by certain people.


As for there being so many threads about him, that's what happens here. First there's one thread about some player, often because his name came up in the news. Then a second question gets asked and branches into a new thread. Then he's on everyone's mind, so his name comes up in unrelated threads. Happens with Selanne, Lidstrom, Hasek, Esposito, Lindros, Messier, Jagr, Howe, etc. (and that's just the last few months...)

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01-24-2013, 02:46 AM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
5. Wasn't better than Bure at anything but longevity (TDMM)
This is the actual post you are quoting:

Quote:
Originally Posted by me in 2009
Yeah, Selanne's longevity is the one thing he has on Bure. Bure was as good or better than Selanne at everything while they played. But you're right, longevity does matter.

Honestly, I think Bure has more elite seasons than Selanne. Selanne has a lot of average seasons where he was hobbled but playing.
If anything changed in my opinion of Selanne in his prime since then, it's that I now think that the only problem with his playoff record in his prime was lack of opportunity. Honestly, you are still bent out of shape 3 years ago about a post that looks like I spent about 30 second typing? I don't have any idea what I meant by "Bure was as good or better than Selanne at everything while they played." Did I mean Bure was as good or better at every individual aspect of being a hockey player? Or did I mean the whole package? I honestly don't know. Which is why calling people out for throwaway posts from 3-4 years ago is foolish.

Quote:
6. Isn't a Top 100 player (TDMM)
This is the actual post you are quoting and the meaning is so different than what you claim I was saying that I can only conclude that you are deliberately misrepresenting what I said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by me in 2009
Interesting that Selanne is winning this in a landslide, when Bucyk is the guy who is going to end up on the Top 100 list.
I have no idea what this quote from 3 years ago that you are taking out of context and then misrepresenting was referring to exactly, but it was probably an observation of the inconsistency between that particular poll and the top 100 list that was in the process of being made. Selanne wasn't on the 2008 list and Bucyk was.


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01-24-2013, 02:58 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
This is the actual post you are quoting and the meaning is so different that your paraphrasing that I can only conclude that you are deliberately misrepresenting what I said.
Well, the wonderful thing is that you were so adamant about it, you said it again:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Again, the gap is due to Selanne's longevity, the only advantage Selanne has over Bure. (Playing at a high level in high scoring 92-93, before Bure emerged didn't hurt either)..
So... how are you being misrepresented again?

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01-24-2013, 03:08 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Well, the wonderful thing is that you were so adamant about it, you said it again
Yes, 3-4 year ago, I was adamant that Bure was better at his peak, and the only way to rank Selanne ahead was to look at his longevity.

Quote:
So... how are you being misrepresented again?
You twisted a post from Novemeber 2009 that basically just amounted to "the results of this poll between Selanne and Bucyk will be different than the results of the top 100 project" to "Selanne is not a top 100 player." It's possible that 4 years ago, I believed Selanne wasn't a top 100 player, because I was new to this board and didn't realize how the way people were ranking things at the time really sold modern players short. And also because 4 years ago, Selanne's longevity was nothing special.

Anyway, I'm done talking about posts I made 3-4 years ago.

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01-24-2013, 03:17 AM
  #72
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anyway, Selanne was definitely a better playmaker than Bure at his peak, so if me from 2009 thought that Selanne had no skills better than Bure, I was wrong.

(edit: Guess that means I lied about being done with the posts from 3-4 years ago, heh)


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01-24-2013, 03:41 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
You twisted a post from Novemeber 2009 that basically just amounted to "the results of this poll between Selanne and Bucyk will be different than the results of the top 100 project" to "Selanne is not a top 100 player." It's possible that 4 years ago, I believed Selanne wasn't a top 100 player, because I was new to this board and didn't realize how the way people were ranking things at the time really sold modern players short. And also because 4 years ago, Selanne's longevity was nothing special.
It's a fact that you didn't. Even just two years ago, you didn't "see him realistically making the Top 100," and said "I think he has no shot."

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...19&postcount=9

I'm not twisting your words with some nefarious agenda of deliberate misrepresentation, TDMM; we've spoken on here enough times that I know your position on things, and one of them was at the time that Teemu Selanne was not a Top 100 Player and was not a better player than Pavel Bure. I quoted one post when I could have quoted no fewer than a half-dozen. In the same way you think I underrate Nicklas Lidstrom (and call me on it often), I believe you underrate Teemu Selanne (and will call you on it often).

And it's not just you. But when it is you, and we're rehashing the same conversation from three years ago, I'm not going to forget things that you were incorrect about and defer to a conclusive statement about Bure's superiority in any field - and then get called out for being "aggressive and defensive" by vadim when I think I'm entitled to being both within reason, considering how wrong everyone was about him in the recent past.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
(edit: Guess that means I lied about being done with the posts from 3-4 years ago, heh)
This thread has taken a turn into crazy town, hasn't it? As long as no one has anything to say about John Bucyk, I'll see my way out...

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01-24-2013, 03:46 AM
  #74
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It's a fact that you didn't. Even just two years ago, you didn't "see him realistically making the Top 100," and said "I think he has no shot."
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...19&postcount=9

This is the post I was responding to:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Engine
How close is Selanne to the HOH Top 100? Does he have a shot of making it the next time there is voting?
This is my full post that you linked to:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I think he has no shot, but perhaps he should (have a shot, not necessarily make it). I'll dig up how close he was to making the 2008 version.

Edit: Selanne was 117th in the aggregate list from 2008: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=539903

That's honestly a lot closer than I thought he would be. I don't see him realistically making the Top 100, though, especially when Pronger, Crosby, Ovechkin, and Iginla are also going to be in serious contention to make it.
Any particular reason you ignored the bold when "summarizing" the linked post?

For what it's worth, I'm looking forward to the Selanne vs Brett Hull vs. Kurri conversation that will happen if we ever get around to doing a top wingers of all time list.


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Old
01-24-2013, 06:22 AM
  #75
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Well. Matti Hagman is the best Finnish center to ever play the game. He was better than Mess, but got overshadowed by Gretzky obviously. There are quotes of him given by his team mates from when he was in Edmonton.
Raimo Helminen is a legend in Finnish hockey, but not in the top ten. I think he lacked the drive to become 100%
Rautakallio, Ketola, Marjamäki and Oksanen (along with many others) are first truly great finnish players. Rautakallio in modern times would be like Pronger. Ketola like Getzlaf. But these guys were playing hockey as a hobby.

Helminen with modern training could've been a Thornton or Oates, except he was always bit lazy.
Matti Hagman, with his skillset, and modern training would probably be the best player in the NHL.
I am not sure if I am reading this right. Are you saying that there are quotes form teammates in Edmonton suggesting that Matti Hagman was better than Messier when he was in Edmonton?

If so this was certainly not the case. I watched every home game he played for the Oilers live and there is no way that even at 25 that Hagman was as good as a 20 year old Mark Messier.

In Messier's second year with the Oilers and Hagman's first one might argue that they were closer statistically. But Messier still had a significant physical presence that was a big factor for the Oilers.

This is an interesting thread. Based on NHL play only since I don't really have much of a feel for Finnish international play, I would have given Kurri a slight edge over Selanne based on the difference in their defensive games.


Last edited by Fourier: 01-24-2013 at 06:39 AM.
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