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P.K. Subban Thread - 5.0 - The "Doughty Money Vs. Lowball Bridge" Edition

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01-24-2013, 03:06 AM
  #901
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See Roy, though he apologized for his actions he was gone, out of principle.
Umm...Don't think it was really principle...I saw it more like the player/coach/gm all having a tantrum. A head coach who couldn't give a damn and to make a point, kept his hot headed goalie in net for 9 bloody goals. A hot headed goalie who in front of the world told he played his last game as a Hab. And a GM that did absolutely nothing to make the situation better and instead practically gave arguably one of the best goalies ever (at that time) to Colorado for peanuts, and threw in the Habs captain as bonus. If this is Habs principle, I can't fathom how on earth they have gotten so many cups over the years. Principle is one thing, abject stupidity is another. Specially considering Roy went on to win another cup immediately (and another further along) while the Habs been fighting to get into the playoffs for the next two decades... If this was principle and the Habs are still working on principle than they would need to change their philosophy ASAP because it doesn't seem to be working out too well for them.

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01-24-2013, 03:07 AM
  #902
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I don't know the numbers, but one thing I do know is that PK Subban does in fact have a bigger head than I thought and is turning hockey and more specifically the brand of the Habs into some cheap marketing issue. What he's worth? Really sucks to hear him talk in that tone, usually reserved for players of his age and years in the league from other leagues. That's what I love about the NHL, you don't see this kind of garbage from the "kids." Yes, large contracts have been handed out to young players, but because the organizations are overeager. I don't think I've ever seen this kind of "What would the Habs marketing dept. do without me?" attitude. If he can't play for 2 friggin years at a price like (let's just say it's "low", like 3M, which isn't really low IMO), before knowing (cuz he's so confident) he's going to get a 6M or more contract, I'm sorry, that's greedy. You have your whole NHL career to play, PK, seriously, I do hope that when the numbers are revealed, it doesn't make you look like a greedy self-important d-bag. (I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for now as it relates to figures.) I know he also means on-ice worth, but at this point in his career, it's a show of goodwill that goes a LONG way. (You're helping yourself to by allowing your organization to build that winning team that you claim to want.) Two years! Just take the 3M and play like a boss. Is it the end of the world?

Still, the attitude, trying to play the "I love the Habs" while simultaneously saying "...but I don't love them THAT much" is aggravating. Special player, yes. Deserves large money in the grand scheme, I believe yes. Do his endorsement deals need the Habs more than the Habs marketing needs him? I think so big time. Just wish he'd be a team player in all senses of the word. It hurts to have your faith in the integrity of a hero dashed. And no, I wouldn't do the same thing in his place. And no, I won't be able to accept him being traded.

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01-24-2013, 03:10 AM
  #903
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Originally Posted by JustAHabFan View Post
Coming out of a lockout, I don't think there will be an offer sheet for anybody. I do not hear Benn get any offer sheet neither.
I don't see how that changes anything. If there's an unwritten rule about doing offersheet, and some GMs don't obey it already, they won't change because now the unwritten rule is because of the lockout they just came out of.

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01-24-2013, 03:11 AM
  #904
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Just wish he'd be a team player in all senses of the word. It hurts to have your faith in the integrity of a hero dashed. And no, I wouldn't do the same thing in his place.
Umm...and exactly how is he not a team player? And what exactly wouldn't you do? Last I checked NO one really knows the numbers...unless you have some insider info that we don't know about.

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01-24-2013, 03:12 AM
  #905
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I don't know the numbers, but one thing I do know is that PK Subban does in fact have a bigger head than I thought and is turning hockey and more specifically the brand of the Habs into some cheap marketing issue. What he's worth? Really sucks to hear him talk in that tone, usually reserved for players of his age and years in the league from other leagues. That's what I love about the NHL, you don't see this kind of garbage from the "kids." Yes, large contracts have been handed out to young players, but because the organizations are overeager. I don't think I've ever seen this kind of "What would the Habs marketing dept. do without me?" attitude. If he can't play for 2 friggin years at a price like (let's just say it's "low", like 3M, which isn't really low IMO), before knowing (cuz he's so confident) he's going to get a 6M or more contract, I'm sorry, that's greedy. You have your whole NHL career to play, PK, seriously, I do hope that when the numbers are revealed, it doesn't make you look like a greedy self-important d-bag. (I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for now as it relates to figures.) I know he also means on-ice worth, but at this point in his career, it's a show of goodwill that goes a LONG way. (You're helping yourself to by allowing your organization to build that winning team that you claim to want.) Two years! Just take the 3M and play like a boss. Is it the end of the world?

Still, the attitude, trying to play the "I love the Habs" while simultaneously saying "...but I don't love them THAT much" is aggravating. Special player, yes. Deserves large money in the grand scheme, I believe yes. Do his endorsement deals need the Habs more than the Habs marketing needs him? I think so big time. Just wish he'd be a team player in all senses of the word. It hurts to have your faith in the integrity of a hero dashed. And no, I wouldn't do the same thing in his place. And no, I won't be able to accept him being traded.
Subban came off really well in that interview. He came off as being his own man, having confidence, and loving the team. I loved the quote about him wanting to kill everybody who comes into the zone.

Would you rather hear:

"I just want to give 110% and support the team"

I bet you would.

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01-24-2013, 03:30 AM
  #906
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Subban came off really well in that interview. He came off as being his own man, having confidence, and loving the team. I loved the quote about him wanting to kill everybody who comes into the zone.

Would you rather hear:

"I just want to give 110% and support the team"

I bet you would.
So?



Every player in his age range from Del Zotto to Kulikov have signed bridge contracts of 2 years at 2.5M$/yr what makes PK different? He played 23mins a game in a team that finished last.


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01-24-2013, 03:45 AM
  #907
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So?



Every player in his age range from Del Zotto to Kulikov have signed bridge contracts of 2 years at 2.5M$/yr what makes PK different? He played 23mins a game in a team that finished last.
23 minutes a game with a +9. Gorges was a +14. Pretty much every other blueliner on Montreal had a negative +/-. Gorges/Subban was one of the best D pairings in the league despite being on the worst team in the East.

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01-24-2013, 04:12 AM
  #908
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If Subban really valued the team, he would accept that 2 year 3 M per. Then he would easily be signed long term. Even though he showed great stuff in 2 years, last year he started bad. Is he really worth 5 M per? Did he score 20 goals/season. Subban is an RFA. PK's points are good but not worth 5 M/season even though he plays big minutes.

I think Subban is far too greedy. From what RDS is reporting, Meehan suggested him to sign that 2 year deal. I do believe that the new HABS management will not want PK to become a distraction. Management wants to set a new mentality.

If the gap is big between both, PK will be traded. Frankly, I think the Habs will benefit. If Bergevin plays his cards right, I'm sure they can get high quality picks and a top winger or D. If not, this can turn out to bite the Habs in the future.

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01-24-2013, 04:17 AM
  #909
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I'd trade PK to Philly for Luke Schenn and a first round pick.

Or to WSH for John Carlson and a second round pick.


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01-24-2013, 04:27 AM
  #910
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I'd trade PK to Philly for Luke Schenn and a first round pick.

Or to WSH for Joe Carlson.
I don't think you understand how truly terrible Luke Schenn is at being an NHL hockey player.

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01-24-2013, 04:29 AM
  #911
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I'd trade PK to Philly for Luke Schenn and a first round pick.

Or to WSH for Joe Carlson and a second round pick.
We're not getting John Carlson.

He's got a six-year deal on his second contract.

As for Luke Schenn, please, no busts.

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01-24-2013, 04:37 AM
  #912
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We're not getting John Carlson.

He's got a six-year deal on his second contract.

As for Luke Schenn, please, no busts.
Well it would come with a hypothetical first round pick. With a shortened season and 3 loss by Philly one could hope for a 15th pick.
Schenn is still only 23 yrs old.

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01-24-2013, 04:51 AM
  #913
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If we trade PK, we are guaranteed to lose the trade..No team would give us player (s) or picks that will replace his value to the CH...I just hope he signs soon, i'm tired of all this '' hes putting himself ahead of the team, blablabla'' , i wonder what would people say if DD was holding out..

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01-24-2013, 05:02 AM
  #914
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If we trade PK, we are guaranteed to lose the trade..No team would give us player (s) or picks that will replace his value to the CH...I just hope he signs soon, i'm tired of all this '' hes putting himself ahead of the team, blablabla'' , i wonder what would people say if DD was holding out..
DD's not a good enough player to hold out.

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01-24-2013, 06:24 AM
  #915
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Umm...and exactly how is he not a team player? And what exactly wouldn't you do? Last I checked NO one really knows the numbers...unless you have some insider info that we don't know about.
First of all, it's not some fantasy that in actual games PK plays by his own rules, which is fine sometimes and really I'm not commenting on that. Did you read what I wrote? I said I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt since I don't know the numbers, but I don't like what he is saying in terms of publicly stating he wants what he's worth, as if he's all of a sudden the prize of the NHL. It almost feels like all his awesomeness was all towards being able to state his worth and not just his unbridled enthusiasm. I'm saying it cheapens things. What wouldn't I do? I wouldn't act like this coming out of an ELC, when playing for the Habs. That's what I wouldn't do even though many people are of the "it's just business, that's what any young kid who's proven himself would do" mentality. Proven is being debated in terms of stats, observations, whatever, but at the end of the day, it is not a big deal (IMO) for him to sign a two year deal. I fully concede that 2.75 is too low even though it's muchhhh higher than previous bridge contracts. It's about compromise here and he seems to not want anything to do with that.

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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Subban came off really well in that interview. He came off as being his own man, having confidence, and loving the team. I loved the quote about him wanting to kill everybody who comes into the zone.

Would you rather hear:

"I just want to give 110% and support the team"

I bet you would.
As it has probably been stated (and by me as well), this is exactly the kind of PR ploy that pisses me off. It's not that I don't believe him, it's that he's using this kind of stuff to make it seem like MB is NUTS to not be giving him what he wants. I think we all know that he likes to bee sting and we all love it, but if you go on about the Montreal Canadiens and how awesome it is to don the jersey and play here, then you're the last person I expect to be holding out like this when in all fairness, this is NOTHING in the grand scheme of how much he will make in his career (and very soon too, including this so called pretty inflated bridge contract).

You bet I would want to hear that? Ohhh kay. So you wouldn't want to hear that? Kind of irrelevant. I'd rather he say, "Hey, this is the team I grew up loving. My Dad too. The organization has treated me well, the fans love me and I just love being a Hab. So, I'll sign this two year contract, be even better than I was the last two years, take us to the playoffs and since I understand that this organization is trying to get its **** together, I'll wait a measly two years before asking for a TON of cash, which I WILL get. Go Habs Go!"

Yeah, that's what I would like to hear. I'm so sick of seeing him in commercials and palling around with Kessel and going a little overboard with the product placement. You wanna destroy people? GTF on the ice and do it for 3M or perhaps a little more that you squeeze out eventually. It won't bankrupt you! And stop pandering to the fans while saying that you logged the most minutes, were the most useful, are worth so much to this team. Man, I just can't believe he's spouting all this PUBLICLY! Please don't mistake what I'm saying for a dislike of PK. I love the guy, I want him as a Hab desperately! But I also don't think that someone in his position, however cogent his reasons are statistically or otherwise, should be focussing more on his brand rather than the Habs winning a Cup. I've even said it before, I wouldn't even be upset if we signed him to a massive long term deal. I think he IS worth it and that it would be the Habs pushing for it if we were like other organizations. Point is that him holding out like this and then adding fuel to the fire with what I consider to be egotistical statements, it's just not cool, gives credence to my worst fears about his "reputation."

My bet is that they get it done at 4M for 2 years and according to me, that's bending towards PK's will. Say what you want about how special he is -- when the others come into their own, he might not look as special.

Edit: to clarify on what I think he's worth. Right now - 4.5-5.5 for 6 years, nothing more. For two years, nothing more than 4 x 2. $4M is not nothing. Hopefully MB will offer something like 3.5M from (allegedly 2.75-3M) and PK will...compromise.


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01-24-2013, 06:34 AM
  #916
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I love PK and how he carries himself but I really don't like how he comes off in that interview. He comes off as having a chip on his shoulder.

Who really knows what the numbers are that are being thrown around by both sides. I really don't believe that Bergevin wouldn't sign him for long term if it was for 4 million or something. Bergevin couldn't be that stupid. With the way PK's talking it sounds like he wants 5.5-6. Could even be more.

I don't honestly know what to think of this whole situation. Can't really take a side without knowing what the actual figures that are being discussed.

If he wants more than Price then I can definitely say no to that. Price is our MVP at the moment.

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01-24-2013, 06:34 AM
  #917
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He worth 6 millions and he knows it. He brings to the table what a 6 mil defenceman brings. Bergevin is trying to have a deal like the Del Zotto one where he underpay the guy. It is not because some guy get screwed that Subban have to get screwed. He is smarter than that. I dont get the "he is greedy" comment. He knows his value and he wants a fair deal. He is the face of the montreal canadiens. The highlight reel show and the one that is selling stuff. I dont know why Bergerin is taking so much time before signing him. A 1st defenceman doesnt come easily. When you get one, you dont get rid of him. I dont get the rethoric of some people saying he must be traded if he doesnt agree to a bridge contract.

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01-24-2013, 06:38 AM
  #918
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You bet I would want to hear that? Ohhh kay. So you wouldn't want to hear that?
Of course not, I prefer to hear substance and not clichés.

I still miss the Pacioretty of old who used to say that he'd rather play first line minutes in Hamilton than fourth line minutes in Montreal. I remember that a lot of fans went ballistic when he had to audacity to say something other than "the coach is always right".

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Kind of irrelevant. I'd rather he say, "Hey, this is the team I grew up loving. My Dad too. The organization has treated me well, the fans love me and I just love being a Hab. So, I'll sign this two year contract, be even better than I was the last two years, take us to the playoffs and since I understand that this organization is trying to get its **** together, I'll wait a measly two years before asking for a TON of cash, which I WILL get. Go Habs Go!"
So you want him to be a liar? You prefer lies over substance?

Fact: the organization is not treating him well if they don't want to pay him what he's worth, approximately 5-6 million dollars/year.

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01-24-2013, 06:39 AM
  #919
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I love PK and how he carries himself but I really don't like how he comes off in that interview. He comes off as having a chip on his shoulder.
Who wouldn't in that situation?

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01-24-2013, 06:40 AM
  #920
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I love PK and how he carries himself but I really don't like how he comes off in that interview. He comes off as having a chip on his shoulder.

Who really knows what the numbers are that are being thrown around by both sides. I really don't believe that Bergevin wouldn't sign him for long term if it was for 4 million or something. Bergevin couldn't be that stupid. With the way PK's talking it sounds like he wants 5.5-6. Could even be more.

I don't honestly know what to think of this whole situation. Can't really take a side without knowing what the actual figures that are being discussed.
I think you and I are on the same page in that it's not the figures per say, but rather how he's handling the situation. Others see it as confidence. (?) I see it as thinking he's too good to play for 3M for two years and that the Habs brand will suffer without him. That's just punching your fans and organization in the face. Using your popularity as leverage?

The ironic thing about this whole thread is that EVERYONE loves PK. It's really about people's attitude's towards how someone in his position should act. Humble (and a multi-millionaire) or cocky (and not playing hockey). It would be really great if he helped his new GM out, showed that he IS the real deal for a further two years at a very reasonable price and then asked for the big ticket. In fact, that's the type of person I thought he was, hence frustration.

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01-24-2013, 06:41 AM
  #921
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He worth 6 millions and he knows it. He brings to the table what a 6 mil defenceman brings. Bergevin is trying to have a deal like the Del Zotto one where he underpay the guy. It is not because some guy get screwed that Subban have to get screwed. He is smarter than that. I dont get the "he is greedy" comment. He knows his value and he wants a fair deal. He is the face of the montreal canadiens. The highlight reel show and the one that is selling stuff. I dont know why Bergerin is taking so much time before signing him. A 1st defenceman doesnt come easily. When you get one, you dont get rid of him. I dont get the rethoric of some people saying he must be traded if he doesnt agree to a bridge contract.
I can tell by your post you are a Boston fan an well I see that it would be to Boston advantage to see the Habs overpay Pk and have no money left to pay good players. This would leave Boston in a better position against the Habs. So what you think about all this is well suspect.

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01-24-2013, 06:47 AM
  #922
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Who wouldn't in that situation?
What is this situation that you think he's in?

Is he crucial to the Habs - YES

Has he stepped up big time in the last two years - YES

Do the fans love him - YES

Are we a much better team with him - YES, but he aint perfect. This controversy has made people really forget about the aspects of his game that he needs to improve to become a 6M player.

Is he an RFA - YESSS!

Will we suffer without him - ALMOST SURELY

....


Is he coming off an ELC where his alleged "bridge contract" offer is more like a UFA signing for a decent player - YES

Is this for only two years - YES

Will he make way more after - If he is so confident, he shouldn't have to worry about it, so YES!

Does he reallllly want to be a Hab - Despite his fan-gasmic proclamations, I'm actually not so sure anymore and THAT is what sucks the most

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01-24-2013, 06:49 AM
  #923
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I think you and I are on the same page in that it's not the figures per say, but rather how he's handling the situation. Others see it as confidence. (?)
The difference between Subban's confidence and that of other players is that he speaks his mind. You can be sure that all players in the NHL as great as Subban think highly of themselves, they just don't usually talk about it publicly, which is a disservice to the game, with the exception of the Atlantic division which does have some trash talking.

NHL fans don't get the same exciting rivalries as NBA fans for example. At no time in the next 10 years will you hear one of Seguin or Galchenyuk call the other overrated, even though those two could become the rivalry of the decade, that is because they were raised and are continuously taught to be boring, in true stereotypical Canadian fashion. If more NHL players had personalities, the game would do better marketing-wise.

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I see it as thinking he's too good to play for 3M for two years and that the Habs brand will suffer without him.
He is indeed too good to play for 3 million.

The Habs had him at $850,000 for two years. That is sufficient extraction. They should now pay him what he's worth.

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01-24-2013, 06:52 AM
  #924
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He worth 6 millions and he knows it. He brings to the table what a 6 mil defenceman brings. Bergevin is trying to have a deal like the Del Zotto one where he underpay the guy. It is not because some guy get screwed that Subban have to get screwed. He is smarter than that. I dont get the "he is greedy" comment. He knows his value and he wants a fair deal. He is the face of the montreal canadiens. The highlight reel show and the one that is selling stuff. I dont know why Bergerin is taking so much time before signing him. A 1st defenceman doesnt come easily. When you get one, you dont get rid of him. I dont get the rethoric of some people saying he must be traded if he doesnt agree to a bridge contract.
At this point in time, he is NOT worth 6M (since it's all about absolute worth). He's not in the same class as those guys who have 6M, YET. He will get there and this is where I think MB is coming from. Earn the 6M - you'll get it. If you ask people around the league, he is not even mentioned in the conversation of top 10 D or even top 15 D. He still has to get both his O and his D working at the same time, which he will now that Markov is back and he's got some help from what I think is a better offense. (Although look at what can happen 3 games in re: lupul.)

He's definitely not worth that much yet. Two years, pretty sure he will be. Also, we gots bills to pay!

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01-24-2013, 06:55 AM
  #925
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Subban came off really well in that interview. He came off as being his own man, having confidence, and loving the team. I loved the quote about him wanting to kill everybody who comes into the zone.

Would you rather hear:

"I just want to give 110% and support the team"

I bet you would.
He did come out looking like a guy who thinks very highly of himself, that's for sure! However, you can't say you want to give 110% all the time and support your team if you don't show up to training camp and miss the beginning of the seasons because you feel you are not being offered what you think you are worth even perhaps if your agent suggets you should really accept this offer. You are 23 and you have done well, very well so far but you are not done, you still have to grow as a player and a person. I also think its inappropriate to go to the press and to talk about the status of the negotiations and how much you want to be with the team. The motivation here is gratuitous self-justification, and an unsuccessful attempt to sway the public's opinion in your favor (although you do say you don't really care what the fans think, you have to your thing) This piece will widen the gap between you and Habs management as I am sure this will not alter their position. In fact I fear you have just lost bargaining power here as you exhibit once more your unappreciated prima dona tendencies. The point is that you could be with the team if you accepted a little bit more reasonable offer and proved yourself to be a genuine top 10D in the league and surpass your play of the last two years. You would be king with the fans and management and get your dues then. Now you just come across as a publicity hungry little brat.

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