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Cole's Plus/Minus: Pens vs. Leafs - Armageddon at 2-1-0

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01-24-2013, 12:08 AM
  #276
LetangInTheSO
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The idea of promoting Glass to the second line is a major *facepalm* IMO and speaks to our dearth of talent on the wings. I am a huge fan of Glass dating back to his Vancouver days. I want him on the 4th line of my team...but he's no solution for a 2nd line.

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01-24-2013, 12:10 AM
  #277
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
Cooke to Geno's line, Tangradi to Vitale's line, Glass to Sutter's line. Go Pens.

Kunitz-Sid-Dupuis
Cooke-Malkin-Neal
Glass-Sutter-TK
Tangradi-Vitale-Adams
I think this is the better lines we can put out given our depth.

And then give the lines some decent playing time.... Why even put Tangradi or Jeffrey on Line #2 if they get 5 minutes a night and only play every 4th shift...

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01-24-2013, 12:16 AM
  #278
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To tag along with Cole's point from before...
If we ice exactly the same lineup at Winnipeg, chances are we get a strong win and most the negative vibes after this game are totally forgotten... so the frustration levels here are obviously over the top.

A few hours after the game, my only enduring issue is that I don't like Bylsma becoming desperate with juggling in the third game of the season when the chips are down a bit.
We were 2-0-0 on the season. We weren't trailing in a playoff series here. Stick to what you've decided is the lineup in practice and give people some time to get comfortable with each other.

Ultimately the only reason for the juggling was (PK effects apart), that he threw the 'lets hope Sid and Geno can get it done' card. But if you want to throw all the big guns together, at least get them out there at an appropriate time. You have last change.

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01-24-2013, 12:19 AM
  #279
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Jiggy, the flaw in this argument isn't that you're right. You are right. Rather, the question for me is whether the damage is done. I don't know. Maybe he CAN rediscover his game on a fourth line. Thing is, this organization just so thoroughly ******* the pooch on this one that I have my doubts. It makes me worry about how they're going to handle Bennett.
Quote:

“They‘ve made it pretty clear to me that Pittsburgh Penguins hockey is all about north and south,” Bennett said. “That‘s been a change for me a little bit, but I‘m getting used to it, and I have a pretty good idea of what they want out of me.”
http://triblive.com/sports/penguins/...#axzz2IoZ4PHPd

FTR, if he's called up this year, I can't see Bylsma giving him only playing time on the 4th line when there's an open spot on a top line, but who knows?
Problem is, from what I've heard (haven"t seen him play yet) it sounds like he would be a better fit on Crosby's line than Malkin's, but it most likely won't happen.


Last edited by zhenyas most fly rep: 01-24-2013 at 12:32 AM.
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01-24-2013, 12:48 AM
  #280
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+ Vitale. He was incomparable as always
+ Sid.

- Everyboby else. Geno looks uncomfortable with ET. He said something angrily to ET on ice after Toronto equaled 1:1. TK looked good with Geno in his rare shifts with him. No one line works well currently. We won't go too far this season with that performance. We need change

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01-24-2013, 12:54 AM
  #281
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+ Martin had a few skittish plays but I thought he looked good again.

+ Adams has kicked this year off in a great way. He's doing everything a player of his ilk is asked to do.

+ Vittles and TK have been great too. Loads of energy and always hunting down pucks.

+ Engo and Orr... Great tilt. I hope Engo doesn't miss any time.

+ I liked the PP set up with Crosby at the right side of the net and Kunitz in front or moving to the left side. I just wish someone would find them with a backdoor pass.

Meh... the third game in is a loss. Big deal. The only things that got under my skin were...

- Legal hits being called for PIMs and the Leafs putting their back to the hitter.

- The defense doubling up behind the net and in corners. This is an on going thing. We've seen it before and we'll see it again.

- Poor support for MAF around his net. Honestly the Pens have been lacking in this area since Gill and Scuds left.

- Lack of quality offensive zone time.

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01-24-2013, 01:08 AM
  #282
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I've never been a Tangradi fan but I'm fine with giving him a fair shake in the top 6. I'll give him at least 7-10 more games before I start complaining about his play. That said, I'm going to make a prediction about what our top 6 will look like come the playoffs:

Bennett/Traded Winger - Crosby -Dupuis
Kunitz -Malkin -Neal

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01-24-2013, 01:19 AM
  #283
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May be it's sounds strange, but I'm glad that we lost today. It's like a slap into the face. It's better to get that slap earlier than later. We won first 2 games but didn't look good. I hope it will force DB and RS to make changes


Last edited by od71: 01-24-2013 at 01:32 AM.
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01-24-2013, 01:44 AM
  #284
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I've never been a Tangradi fan but I'm fine with giving him a fair shake in the top 6. I'll give him at least 7-10 more games before I start complaining about his play. That said, I'm going to make a prediction about what our top 6 will look like come the playoffs:

Kunitz - Crosby -Dupuis
Jeffrey -Malkin -Neal

^ Fixed ^

This isn't only in direct response to your post, as i was going to post something similar anyway, but it's time to scratch Tangradi and bring Jeffrey back, but this time try him on LW with Geno and Neal. Why? ...


Jeffrey has far superior playmaking ability and hockey IQ to Tangradi, and even though we're losing some size, ET isn't really banging guys around and opening up enough space for Geno & Neal (as if they need it). I know ET is just getting his feet wet, and he'll get another chance, but he has done ZERO in the few games that he has played in. And with the addition of Tanner Glass, Glass can bring the size and grit that we thought ET coulld to the 4th line, except Glass brings defensive play, toughness, defensive play and PKing ability that ET cannot in that role.


I think that Jeffrey could really do very well on a line with Geno-Neal because he is so smart and such a good playmaker, and he knows where to be, how to dish the puck, and can better take advantage of being left wide open if there's over-coverage to Neal/Malkin. Jeffrey is just plainly more skilled and more likely to capitalize in the offensive zone than ET, and while he's a little shorter, he's still 6'2 and plenty big and good reach and brings more size to that line (as opposed to, say, Kennedy).


Last but not least, I think we really need Jeffrey on the 2nd PP. Perhaps on the point, but more likely on the RW half-wall. He is really, really good on the PP and our 2nd PP was brutal tonight when Sid/Geno/Neal/Letang went off. We're missing that left shot and a QB in general, and he would be a nice copliment to Kennedy's and Sutter's right-handed shots.

Dan Bylsma said that he thinks Jeffrey can be a key contributor this season. Well then, he needs an opportunity to prove it, and it's more than clear that it should not be at the exense of Vitale, or even Adams at this point.

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01-24-2013, 03:43 AM
  #285
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Eric Tangradi has 42 caeer games played and he has 5 points, and only 1 goal, and that 1 goal was among the flukiest goals I've ever seen.

It's time to call a spade a spade.

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01-24-2013, 03:47 AM
  #286
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+sid multi points malkin-turn over lead to goal and didn't look to good

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01-24-2013, 03:48 AM
  #287
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beau should be playing on crosby wing

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01-24-2013, 05:06 AM
  #288
Coach John McGuirk
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Let's give Tangradi 10 games or so before we crucify him. If he fails, which is possible, Jeffrey could really benefit from it. I think he's a waste on the fourth line, and there's no room on the third line.

If Jeffrey doesn't work out, we can hope Bennett is ready by the end of the season or for the beginning of next season to hop on Sid's wing, giving Geno, Kunitz.

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01-24-2013, 05:13 AM
  #289
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So expected. I was telling it, Tangradi had his defenders since we were winning games. But after the loss, itīs another story. Here it is..

1) That possible 2-on-1 (with Geno waiting for the pass) shows you how embarassing his hockey IQ is. Not enough for NHL, let alone Top6 with MVP talent in the middle. What a joke. That doesnīt have an positive effect for Genoīs attitude. No wonder, he has to be angry after that.

2)That 1st TOR goal shows you a lot, too. Firstly, ET made a sloppy pass on Neal, who lost the battle (btw, as many others that game). Leafs executing a counterattack. Tangradi didnīt give it **** and just watched them score. He could easily come back and backcheck it, but he just didnīt care. You are a borderline young player fighting for a spot, you just canīt act like that. Thatīs ****ing awful.

He was benched and rightfully so. Problem is, lines were misjuggled and it hurt us. We canīt risk things like this going forward. We have to play someone responsible there. Just not Tangradi. Btw. Steve Sullivan just scored a HT, OMG what an irony.

Saying he has done ZERO so far is an understatement. All the bad plays, ZERO hockey sense, pathetic defensive responsibilities, etc. Even that expected physical presence is just not there.

At least we can see the problem this early, in an almost meaningless game like this. Now itīs time to take some solutions.

Only pluses for me were Crosby(while still not close to being 100%) and Joey Vitale.

Malkin and Neal were both horrible, Neal just did nothing all game long. **** happens, he was our best player in first 2 games, so OK, I can live with that. Geno had an atrocious 2nd period, so I expected him in "beast mode" in the 3rd. It just didnīt happen, he was on the ice for another Leafs goal and did nothing the other way. Just a bad bad game, but they will be OK.

Same for Letang, nothing went his way. He was also shockingly outskated on that 2nd TOR goal.

Also, I hate officiating in our games vs Leafs. It seems to me like itīs every single game against us. Refs were horrible, but it still wasnīt the reason why we lost.

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01-24-2013, 05:41 AM
  #290
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Originally Posted by jmelm View Post
^ Fixed ^

This isn't only in direct response to your post, as i was going to post something similar anyway, but it's time to scratch Tangradi and bring Jeffrey back, but this time try him on LW with Geno and Neal. Why? ...


Jeffrey has far superior playmaking ability and hockey IQ to Tangradi, and even though we're losing some size, ET isn't really banging guys around and opening up enough space for Geno & Neal (as if they need it). I know ET is just getting his feet wet, and he'll get another chance, but he has done ZERO in the few games that he has played in. And with the addition of Tanner Glass, Glass can bring the size and grit that we thought ET coulld to the 4th line, except Glass brings defensive play, toughness, defensive play and PKing ability that ET cannot in that role.


I think that Jeffrey could really do very well on a line with Geno-Neal because he is so smart and such a good playmaker, and he knows where to be, how to dish the puck, and can better take advantage of being left wide open if there's over-coverage to Neal/Malkin. Jeffrey is just plainly more skilled and more likely to capitalize in the offensive zone than ET, and while he's a little shorter, he's still 6'2 and plenty big and good reach and brings more size to that line (as opposed to, say, Kennedy).


Last but not least, I think we really need Jeffrey on the 2nd PP. Perhaps on the point, but more likely on the RW half-wall. He is really, really good on the PP and our 2nd PP was brutal tonight when Sid/Geno/Neal/Letang went off. We're missing that left shot and a QB in general, and he would be a nice copliment to Kennedy's and Sutter's right-handed shots.

Dan Bylsma said that he thinks Jeffrey can be a key contributor this season. Well then, he needs an opportunity to prove it, and it's more than clear that it should not be at the exense of Vitale, or even Adams at this point.
Agreed. The best possible spin on Tangradi is that his play was neutral over the first two games. Yesterday he really hurt the Pens with his presence in the lineup both on the the ice and off the ice. I can pretty much guarantee that if Jeffrey is given 3 games with Malkin/Neal that there will be significantly more positive things to say about his performance than what we are getting now with Tangradi. The only "space" that Tangradi is creating on the ice is a black hole.

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01-24-2013, 05:45 AM
  #291
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Phaneuf makes a lot of little plays that other guys just don't make. One of my favorite players.
He's extremely long. I never fully appreciated it until I saw him in person from a seat up behind the goal. He covers so much of the ice with 2 strides.

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01-24-2013, 05:51 AM
  #292
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Would be nervous about playing the leafs in a 7 game series. We don't match up well with them. We have struggled with them recently.
what? yes we beat you but lets be honest while anything is possible the chances of us winning 4 of 7 games is VERY slim

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01-24-2013, 06:18 AM
  #293
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May be it's sounds strange, but I'm glad that we lost today. It's like a slap into the face. It's better to get that slap earlier than later. We won first 2 games but didn't look good. I hope it will force DB and RS to make changes
"Glad" isn't the right word for it but yeah, those were my exact thoughts after the game.

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01-24-2013, 06:24 AM
  #294
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Eric Tangradi has 42 caeer games played and he has 5 points, and only 1 goal, and that 1 goal was among the flukiest goals I've ever seen.

It's time to call a spade a spade.
Right...and being given 7 mins a game with Craig Adams in 39 games is a real good way to develop someone who has some talent.

He has been in the top 6 for 3 games.

I think it's time to have some realistic expectations for what it takes to develop players.



After reading through this, it's refreshing to see some things will never changed.

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01-24-2013, 06:32 AM
  #295
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Wow, way too much hate for Tangradi around here. It just shows how most people don't even watch the games carefully. It seems like they just look at the scoresheet and it is much easier to blame guys like Tangradi instead of Malkin or Crosby, who BOTH played pretty bad.

Biggest minus was Bylsma and his lines. There is no way any of the lines can form any kind of chemistry with him changing them every other shift. He even broke up the Cooke-Sutter-Kennedy line, which was our most consistent in all 3 games so far.

I have no idea if Tangradi can make it in the top6, but Bylsma will never know if he keeps passing him around and doesn't let him get some confindence. Did Tangradi play great or good? No, but he played exactly like someone who plays in the Top6 for the first time with new linemates. He made some small mistakes and he did some small things right. Exactly what you should have expected. Give him 10-15 games watch if there is some progress. People who expect him to play like a top5 draftpick and score right away are just delusional. I guess you have to expect that from a board overrun with bandwagon fans who expect every young player to make an immediate impact like Crosby/Malkin.

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01-24-2013, 06:42 AM
  #296
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Right...and being given 7 mins a game with Craig Adams in 39 games is a real good way to develop someone who has some talent.

He has been in the top 6 for 3 games.

I think it's time to have some realistic expectations for what it takes to develop players.



After reading through this, it's refreshing to see some things will never changed.
Not even 3 games. He's had 1 game worth of Ice Time.

They'll say otherwise, but reading people's opinions on him after every game really leave me with the impression that not only is Tangradi the worst NHLer in the..er, NHL, but they actually want him to fail and gtfo.

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01-24-2013, 06:44 AM
  #297
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Speculation aside, Shero will be judged on results.
There's actually a pretty evident hole in our top 6 and while it won't make us miss the playoffs, I can't see us going far into the playoffs as it is. There are some other issues but this is absolutely problemo n°1.

Keeping in mind that Shero is usually at his best when it comes to making a deadline deal, we'll see what Shero does, or doesn't, regarding this problem until trade deadline and we'll see how it affect us in Playoffs.
Then we will evaluate Shero's job for this season, or maybe we won't, "because, you know, he tried and we can't know for sure what happened".. well, that kind of excuses.
you aren't listening to what I'm saying. I have no problem with criticizing the results of Shero's moves or non-moves. It just bothers me when completely unsubstantiated speculation is used as evidence.

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01-24-2013, 06:47 AM
  #298
Mr Jiggyfly
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Hold on here Jiggy... Do you mean to tell me Tangradi can't develop by his AMAZING 5 minutes of ice time? Seriously, he should have had at least two hatties with all that work he's had : )

Bylsma has a real problem developing FORWARDS. Despres get solid work every game and on the 3rd line with the same partner.

Tangradi gets 1 shift... sits 3 shifts... 1 shift on. It's flat out stupid. Tangradi hasn't shown me anything and it's early but DB put a line of GLASS - GENO - NEAL... seriously WTF
Coming in to the season I had hoped he would play bottom six minutes and work his way up. Then I read he would be tried with Malkin and rolled my eyes. He has always looked like **** any time he is near Malkin, but I tried to be positive about it.

I figured it was an opportunity (first mistake) and thought it was a logical choice since they needed to find out if he could be a solution for this season. I tried to give DB the benefit of the doubt and hoped he would feed him minutes and let him work through his mistakes, but he went right back to benching him for his mistakes. No wonder the kid said he thinks too much when he is out there. He literally can't make a single mistake without getting glued to the bench. How do you not play tight and nervous when your pivot won't give you the puck and your coach is just waiting to bench you the first time you mess up?

I can literally break down a dozen other guys who made way more mistakes than Tangradi, but didnt get benched. At least he isn't passing it right to JVR from deep in his own zone. Despres was making mistakes left and right the first two games, but he kept being fed minutes and looked much better last night.

It isn't a mystery how you develop young kids, fwds or blueliners. You keep rolling over their minutes and when they make mistakes (and they do) you live with them. You don't bench a kid over and over for making mistakes. That's not how you learn to play in this league.

I've literally watched hundreds of young kids develop over the years and never once saw a guy develop properly from routine benchings. Not once. Ever.

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01-24-2013, 06:53 AM
  #299
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+ Vitale. He was incomparable as always
+ Sid.

- Everyboby else. Geno looks uncomfortable with ET. He said something angrily to ET on ice after Toronto equaled 1:1. TK looked good with Geno in his rare shifts with him. No one line works well currently. We won't go too far this season with that performance. We need change
I wonder if ET said anything back to Geno after his much more egregious turnovers.

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Eric Tangradi has 42 caeer games played and he has 5 points, and only 1 goal, and that 1 goal was among the flukiest goals I've ever seen.

It's time to call a spade a spade.
nope. for the reasons everyone has mentioned in the last few days.

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Originally Posted by Will Hunting View Post
So expected. I was telling it, Tangradi had his defenders since we were winning games. But after the loss, itīs another story. Here it is..

1) That possible 2-on-1 (with Geno waiting for the pass) shows you how embarassing his hockey IQ is. Not enough for NHL, let alone Top6 with MVP talent in the middle. What a joke. That doesnīt have an positive effect for Genoīs attitude. No wonder, he has to be angry after that.

2)That 1st TOR goal shows you a lot, too. Firstly, ET made a sloppy pass on Neal, who lost the battle (btw, as many others that game). Leafs executing a counterattack. Tangradi didnīt give it **** and just watched them score. He could easily come back and backcheck it, but he just didnīt care. You are a borderline young player fighting for a spot, you just canīt act like that. Thatīs ****ing awful.

He was benched and rightfully so. Problem is, lines were misjuggled and it hurt us. We canīt risk things like this going forward. We have to play someone responsible there. Just not Tangradi. Btw. Steve Sullivan just scored a HT, OMG what an irony.

Saying he has done ZERO so far is an understatement. All the bad plays, ZERO hockey sense, pathetic defensive responsibilities, etc. Even that expected physical presence is just not there.
Everyone on the team had a bad game. Tangradi did not have the worst turnovers of the night. I'm definitely leaning towards him not being a fit with Geno, but seriously the bashing is out of control. He's a developing forward in his 3rd game in the top 6. And really, it was his 3rd game where he thought he might get consistent minutes. He didn't. He made a mistake and was essentially benched. He will not develop into anything if he gets benched. If this is how they plan to use him, then sure they might as well trade him. If they want to see what he can actually do, then they need to live with him making some mistakes.

Despres is being given that liberty, no idea why Tangradi never has. Then again, Despres is being used on the 3rd pairing instead of with Geno. I think I'm in agreement with Jiggy, put him in the bottom 6 but give him the consistent ice time. I was all for him being given a shot in the top 6, but I think I am starting to turn against that. He needs to learn the NHL speed and whatnot, and right now he isn't really ready to play with Geno and Neal.

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01-24-2013, 06:54 AM
  #300
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Tangradi seemed to be okay with Crosby. Maybe it's time Sid and Malkin swapped a winger?

Tangradi - Sid - Dupuis
Kunitz - Malkin - Neal

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