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Cole's Plus/Minus: Pens vs. Leafs - Armageddon at 2-1-0

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01-24-2013, 07:01 AM
  #301
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Originally Posted by Bjindaho View Post
Tangradi seemed to be okay with Crosby. Maybe it's time Sid and Malkin swapped a winger?

Tangradi - Sid - Dupuis
Kunitz - Malkin - Neal
Poor Sid. Itīs not easy for him, so letīs make it even worse. Please no.

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01-24-2013, 07:07 AM
  #302
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This is real life. Shero can't just sign or trade for any old winger that you guys name of the top of your heads. First and foremost, they can't disrupt the locker room. Probably a reason Semin was out. They also need to be able to play a north south 2 way game. Preferably have some speed. Then they will have to fit under the cap structure both short term and long term.

Shero has tried and tried. So far James Neal and Chris Kunitz have not been have bad! These guys dont grow on trees though.

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01-24-2013, 07:11 AM
  #303
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post

Everyone on the team had a bad game. Tangradi did not have the worst turnovers of the night. I'm definitely leaning towards him not being a fit with Geno, but seriously the bashing is out of control. He's a developing forward in his 3rd game in the top 6. And really, it was his 3rd game where he thought he might get consistent minutes. He didn't. He made a mistake and was essentially benched. He will not develop into anything if he gets benched. If this is how they plan to use him, then sure they might as well trade him. If they want to see what he can actually do, then they need to live with him making some mistakes.

Despres is being given that liberty, no idea why Tangradi never has. Then again, Despres is being used on the 3rd pairing instead of with Geno. I think I'm in agreement with Jiggy, put him in the bottom 6 but give him the consistent ice time. I was all for him being given a shot in the top 6, but I think I am starting to turn against that. He needs to learn the NHL speed and whatnot, and right now he isn't really ready to play with Geno and Neal.
There is a big difference between Despres and Tangradi. Despres is a typical rookie who has his up and downs. He made some mistakes, but also showed some promise. Bortuzzo and maybe even Dumoulin could be better right now, but Despres is not a problem for us. Heīs in a 3rd pairing and doesnīt look out of place.

Tangradi is a different case. Heīs under radar with Geno on the ice. Thatīs understandable. Everybody makes mistakes, those are expected. I would have no problem with them, but he has to show something positive. He really didnīt. You can see Geno doesnīt want him there.

As for his role in bottom 6. Our bottom 6 is pretty much OK. No need for changes there. I donīt see a place for ET in our lineup at all and I donīt understand why we have to find that place for him. I described those two embarassing situations from TOR game and I think they are saying a lot, both offensively and defensively. Especially that lack of backchecking after his own mistake. Not acceptable if you donīt bring much the other way offensively.

Jeffrey is next try in Top 6. Book it. Heīll be there in WPG. I am not sure how it pans out, but I am at least hopeful. Jeffrey is just a better hockey player. It should be better, but still not enough, I guess.

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01-24-2013, 07:13 AM
  #304
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I'm confident Tangradi is a NHLer, but he is not a fit with Malkin, and I’m not even sure he has top 6 potential to begin with. Let him play with Vitale on the 4th line, they seem to play well together.

I liked Despres game tonight, seemed much more comfortable and had some nice plays.

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01-24-2013, 07:17 AM
  #305
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Originally Posted by Will Hunting View Post
There is a big difference between Despres and Tangradi. Despres is a typical rookie who has his up and downs. He made some mistakes, but also showed some promise. Bortuzzo and maybe even Dumoulin could be better right now, but Despres is not a problem for us. Heīs in a 3rd pairing and doesnīt look out of place.

Tangradi is a different case. Heīs under radar with Geno on the ice. Thatīs understandable. Everybody makes mistakes, those are expected. I would have no problem with them, but he has to show something positive. He really didnīt. You can see Geno doesnīt want him there.

As for his role in bottom 6. Our bottom 6 is pretty much OK. No need for changes there. I donīt see a place for ET in our lineup at all and I donīt understand why we have to find that place for him. I described those two embarassing situations from TOR game and I think they are saying a lot, both offensively and defensively. Especially that lack of backchecking after his own mistake. Not acceptable if you donīt bring much the other way offensively.

Jeffrey is next try in Top 6. Book it. Heīll be there in WPG. I am not sure how it pans out, but I am at least hopeful. Jeffrey is just a better hockey player. It should be better, but still not enough, I guess.
If he moves out of the 2nd line LW spot, someone else has to go there. That would be the spot for him. So if Cooke or TK takes his spot, either put Tangradi on the third line or bump Glass up and put Tangradi on the 4th line. The reason we want to find him that spot on the team is because even if he isn't a good top 6 guy today, the potential to be a good NHL player is still there. Most players don't develop overnight. He might never turn into a top 6 wing. That doesn't mean he should be given up on entirely.

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01-24-2013, 07:30 AM
  #306
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Not much to like about this game.

The PK did a nice job keeping us in it until that last PP.

I thought the biggest issue was mismanaging the puck so much. We either didn't connect on passes or turned the puck over which led to scoring chances against or over-passed which led to squandered scoring chances of our own.

I thought Tangradi looked a bit more dangerous than usual especially early on when he got a shift with Sid.

I also thought Despres looked a little more comfortable in this game.

Sutter amazes me defensively. I guess he was just under the radar in Carolina. The guy plays like a Selke caliber defensive forward. It's amazing how smart he is defensively. It was also interesting to see him get a few shifts on the wing even though they were uneventful. We could find some use for him there situationally.

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01-24-2013, 07:30 AM
  #307
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
If he moves out of the 2nd line LW spot, someone else has to go there. That would be the spot for him. So if Cooke or TK takes his spot, either put Tangradi on the third line or bump Glass up and put Tangradi on the 4th line. The reason we want to find him that spot on the team is because even if he isn't a good top 6 guy today, the potential to be a good NHL player is still there. Most players don't develop overnight. He might never turn into a top 6 wing. That doesn't mean he should be given up on entirely.
You can try Bennett or Jeffrey instead of Tangradi there and you donīt have a free roster spot for ET in bottom 6. Thatīs what I meant. Breaking up our bottom 6 would be a mistake, they are really fine.

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01-24-2013, 07:34 AM
  #308
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The game and situation is just too big for him in a top 6 role. That stupid pass to Neal is a perfect example of that. If that is a practice, preseason, or meaningless game, he would have dumped it and created havoc. The kid becomes an idiot when it is a real game situation on a skill line. That isnt his game and that is why DB was so furious.

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01-24-2013, 07:37 AM
  #309
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Originally Posted by Will Hunting View Post
You can try Bennett or Jeffrey instead of Tangradi there and you donīt have a free roster spot for ET in bottom 6. Thatīs what I meant. Breaking up our bottom 6 would be a mistake, they are really fine.
I love our bottom 6 right now, so its hard to argue. But I don't want to let a guy like Tangradi slip away from us because we are too impatient to actually let him develop.

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01-24-2013, 07:40 AM
  #310
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Originally Posted by Candyman View Post
loss is entirely my fault. First game this season I didn't check out the GDT thread pre-game... It won't happen again in the future and Penguins will go 47-1 this season!
It was actually completely on me. Never ever I am allowed to consume any food or drink during the game, needles to say I was starving last night had to eat and have coffee...My bad

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01-24-2013, 07:45 AM
  #311
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
I love our bottom 6 right now, so its hard to argue. But I don't want to let a guy like Tangradi slip away from us because we are too impatient to actually let him develop.
Agreed. People complain for him to get an opportunity, he finally is and they want to give up on him after 3 games? We gotta be more patient than that.

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01-24-2013, 07:45 AM
  #312
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Pretty much what I expected - a sloppy letdown game after two big division rivalries to open the season. The Pens are the better team overall but they weren't last night, so credit to the Leafs for taking advantage of that. They deserved the two points.

They're going to lose games this season and I'd just as soon it be with non-division rivals.

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01-24-2013, 07:52 AM
  #313
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
To tag along with Cole's point from before...
If we ice exactly the same lineup at Winnipeg, chances are we get a strong win and most the negative vibes after this game are totally forgotten... so the frustration levels here are obviously over the top.

A few hours after the game, my only enduring issue is that I don't like Bylsma becoming desperate with juggling in the third game of the season when the chips are down a bit.
We were 2-0-0 on the season. We weren't trailing in a playoff series here. Stick to what you've decided is the lineup in practice and give people some time to get comfortable with each other.

Ultimately the only reason for the juggling was (PK effects apart), that he threw the 'lets hope Sid and Geno can get it done' card. But if you want to throw all the big guns together, at least get them out there at an appropriate time. You have last change.
Two things:

1. I'll be interested to see, if we win in Winnipeg, HOW we win. We won playing reckless hockey against them all last year. Ottawa will be a comparable test. That really was the refreshing thing about beating Philly . . . not just beating them, but beating them by doing a 180 on everything that went wrong in the playoffs.

2. The questions about who played where on LW and the impact were there in the first two games of the season too. I don't know when he does it, but I suspect Bylsma will make a change soon. IMO, if he does, then make it Cooke-Malkin-Neal, Glass-Sutter-Kennedy, and Tangradi-Vitale-Adams.

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Originally Posted by jmelm View Post
^ Fixed ^

This isn't only in direct response to your post, as i was going to post something similar anyway, but it's time to scratch Tangradi and bring Jeffrey back, but this time try him on LW with Geno and Neal. Why? ...


Jeffrey has far superior playmaking ability and hockey IQ to Tangradi, and even though we're losing some size, ET isn't really banging guys around and opening up enough space for Geno & Neal (as if they need it). I know ET is just getting his feet wet, and he'll get another chance, but he has done ZERO in the few games that he has played in. And with the addition of Tanner Glass, Glass can bring the size and grit that we thought ET coulld to the 4th line, except Glass brings defensive play, toughness, defensive play and PKing ability that ET cannot in that role.


I think that Jeffrey could really do very well on a line with Geno-Neal because he is so smart and such a good playmaker, and he knows where to be, how to dish the puck, and can better take advantage of being left wide open if there's over-coverage to Neal/Malkin. Jeffrey is just plainly more skilled and more likely to capitalize in the offensive zone than ET, and while he's a little shorter, he's still 6'2 and plenty big and good reach and brings more size to that line (as opposed to, say, Kennedy).


Last but not least, I think we really need Jeffrey on the 2nd PP. Perhaps on the point, but more likely on the RW half-wall. He is really, really good on the PP and our 2nd PP was brutal tonight when Sid/Geno/Neal/Letang went off. We're missing that left shot and a QB in general, and he would be a nice copliment to Kennedy's and Sutter's right-handed shots.

Dan Bylsma said that he thinks Jeffrey can be a key contributor this season. Well then, he needs an opportunity to prove it, and it's more than clear that it should not be at the exense of Vitale, or even Adams at this point.
I could see that happening too. Thing is, the key is to find the best possible fit out of the available options for Geno and Neal. Jeffrey is available. Glass is available. But, Cooke makes the most sense.

Strike that: The guy who makes the most sense is Joe Vitale on that off wing. Let Adams play fourth line center, and let the one true hockey god play more.


Last edited by KIRK: 01-24-2013 at 07:58 AM.
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01-24-2013, 07:53 AM
  #314
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Originally Posted by zhenyas most fly rep View Post
http://triblive.com/sports/penguins/...#axzz2IoZ4PHPd

FTR, if he's called up this year, I can't see Bylsma giving him only playing time on the 4th line when there's an open spot on a top line, but who knows?
Problem is, from what I've heard (haven"t seen him play yet) it sounds like he would be a better fit on Crosby's line than Malkin's, but it most likely won't happen.
That's my worry too.

EDIT: I think he's a smart enough player than Geno will come to trust him quickly, but I wonder how his not being a forechecker/physical guy would work with those two. Conversely, Sid's line is crying out for someone not named Sid who can make a play more than once in a blue moon.

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01-24-2013, 07:58 AM
  #315
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Agreed. People complain for him to get an opportunity, he finally is and they want to give up on him after 3 games? We gotta be more patient than that.
No. Not everyone wanted him for that spot. Those who are actually complaining are especially Jeffreyīs and Bennettīs supporters (like myself). Only people who wanted that opportunity for ET are calling for more games for him. He wonīt get it, Bylsma doesnīt like him too much.

Itīs time for Jeffrey now. If he fails, then Bennett. If he fails, then we probably have to make trade. I still believe we have enough talent to make just enough wins while still trying those "questionable" guys on that Top6 spot.

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01-24-2013, 07:58 AM
  #316
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I love our bottom 6 right now, so its hard to argue. But I don't want to let a guy like Tangradi slip away from us because we are too impatient to actually let him develop.
I wasn't too impressed with Glass in the first game, but he is growing on me. I never saw Glass play before and from what people said about his skating and hitting, I expected another Vitale out there. There is only one Vitale so I was being stupid, obviously.

He and Vitale are starting to show a little chemistry.

Adams is Adams. He did well the first two games, but fast teams like the Leafs always expose him. He didnt play poorly, but his lack of speed shows quite clearly agt. them.

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01-24-2013, 08:00 AM
  #317
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Re: Tangradi and patience, just looking at the sheer odds, there is a far better chance that he's just a bum than that he becomes a good player. How would you guys handicap it that he puts it together and becomes the next Malone? 20 percent chance? 10 percent? 5 percent?

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01-24-2013, 08:02 AM
  #318
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Which is more likely -- In one month's time, Tangradi is A) still on Malkin's line, B) Bottom six/healthy scratch, or C) No longer on this team.

Gun to my head I'd probably say C.

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01-24-2013, 08:04 AM
  #319
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Wow, way too much hate for Tangradi around here. It just shows how most people don't even watch the games carefully. It seems like they just look at the scoresheet and it is much easier to blame guys like Tangradi instead of Malkin or Crosby, who BOTH played pretty bad.

Biggest minus was Bylsma and his lines. There is no way any of the lines can form any kind of chemistry with him changing them every other shift. He even broke up the Cooke-Sutter-Kennedy line, which was our most consistent in all 3 games so far.

I have no idea if Tangradi can make it in the top6, but Bylsma will never know if he keeps passing him around and doesn't let him get some confindence. Did Tangradi play great or good? No, but he played exactly like someone who plays in the Top6 for the first time with new linemates. He made some small mistakes and he did some small things right. Exactly what you should have expected. Give him 10-15 games watch if there is some progress. People who expect him to play like a top5 draftpick and score right away are just delusional. I guess you have to expect that from a board overrun with bandwagon fans who expect every young player to make an immediate impact like Crosby/Malkin.
You know, even though I've had my doubts, I've still insisted on 10-15 games. But, let's be honest here: His backchecking was lazy at best. The dump in that led to another counter? Skating with his head down to bust a move way wide to get space on a guy already a half dozen feet away causing him not to notice Geno busting into the zone clean.

I look at Despres and say to myself '****, he's done some god awful things, but he's also made the type of plays that are really going to make you appreciate the decision to keep him in April'. Can you really say the same about Tangradi?

I've got no problem giving him a chance on the fourth line. I don't expect him to be a world beater. But, for as much as people want to note that Geno doesn't trust Tangradi, I've got to ask: Can you really blame him?

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01-24-2013, 08:04 AM
  #320
Ogrezilla
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Originally Posted by Dupree13 View Post
Re: Tangradi and patience, just looking at the sheer odds, there is a far better chance that he's just a bum than that he becomes a good player. How would you guys handicap it that he puts it together and becomes the next Malone? 20 percent chance? 10 percent? 5 percent?
Is the question what are the chances he becomes a good player or the next Malone? There is a big range of NHL talent below Ryan Malone that are still good NHL players.

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01-24-2013, 08:07 AM
  #321
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Originally Posted by Bjindaho View Post
Tangradi seemed to be okay with Crosby. Maybe it's time Sid and Malkin swapped a winger?

Tangradi - Sid - Dupuis
Kunitz - Malkin - Neal
IF you want to give Tangradi one last chance in the top six, then make it Kunitz-Sid-Tangradi and Dupuis-Geno-Neal (Sid hasn't exactly been lighting it up with his two third wheels).

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01-24-2013, 08:09 AM
  #322
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Originally Posted by froods View Post
This is real life. Shero can't just sign or trade for any old winger that you guys name of the top of your heads. First and foremost, they can't disrupt the locker room. Probably a reason Semin was out. They also need to be able to play a north south 2 way game. Preferably have some speed. Then they will have to fit under the cap structure both short term and long term.

Shero has tried and tried. So far James Neal and Chris Kunitz have not been have bad! These guys dont grow on trees though.
And, I'll ask what I asked last night: At what point ISN't trying enough? Another early playoff exit after coming up empty again at the deadline? Another summer whiffing on everyone?

I don't know when it will happen, but, at some point, you've got to think that Mario and Burkle look at it and say 'results matter, and trying isn't enough when you've got Sid and Geno entering their primes'.

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01-24-2013, 08:09 AM
  #323
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Is the question what are the chances he becomes a good player or the next Malone? There is a big range of NHL talent below Ryan Malone that are still good NHL players.
Yeah, there is, but it seems the common wisdom on Tangradi is that he doesn't have to grit to become a Mike Rupp bottom six type. It's probably either scoring power forward or bust for him.

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01-24-2013, 08:11 AM
  #324
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
I love our bottom 6 right now, so its hard to argue. But I don't want to let a guy like Tangradi slip away from us because we are too impatient to actually let him develop.
No offense, but Sid and/or Geno has to take precedence over the construction of the bottom six.

I love Cooke with Sutter and TK, but c'mon, slide Glass up and then Cooke up with Geno.

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01-24-2013, 08:12 AM
  #325
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Originally Posted by Dupree13 View Post
Yeah, there is, but it seems the common wisdom on Tangradi is that he doesn't have to grit to become a Mike Rupp bottom six type. It's probably either scoring power forward or bust for him.
I don't know how he gets back there. Three years ago, that's the player he could have been, the type of player he was. This organization spent three years beating any of the skill out of him so he could play Bylsma hockey.

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