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P.K. Subban Thread - Edition 6.0 - #BlameSubban

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Old
01-24-2013, 09:49 AM
  #51
Agnostic
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More appropriate comparison is Rod Langway.
Rod had less than 300 games under belt, but was a rising star when he became disgruntled with his pay and being paid in Canadian Dollars.

Habs sent him as centrepiece in multiplayer deal to Washington, and did not receive full value back in the deal.

Langway went on to multiple Norris trophy's and Hall of Fame.

Some say the trade marked the start of the Habs slide back into being in the middle of the pack of the NHL.

That's my cautionary tale anyway.

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01-24-2013, 09:49 AM
  #52
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Teams have no leverage when comparing players who make less. Every agent can just say, "He took less to stay with the team he's on". When a player makes more, it's the team agreeing to pay the player what they feel they are worth.
au contraire. the more agree to less money the more teams gain leverage.

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01-24-2013, 09:50 AM
  #53
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2.5M$ for Del Zotto and Kulikov, is it a joke too???
If subban was traded for del zotto people would be calling for Bergy"s head.

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01-24-2013, 09:51 AM
  #54
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Don't ever compare Del Zotto to Subban
Why not? You have to compare with players with same age.

I don't say Del Zotto/Kulikov is equal to Subban, I only say if the 2,75 M$ offer made 3 weeks ago by Bergevin to Subban is a joke for you, I suppose that the 2,5M$ deal of Del Zotto is a true steal for Rangers too. Because both Del Zotto/Kulikov surely received a offer well below of 2.5M$ before of that...

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01-24-2013, 09:52 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Here's my issue with going through the trade route.

A- I think we can all agree, if PK is put on the trade market, every team will call to see what the asking price is.

B- He is unsigned, and if traded, it's because he doesn't want a short term, at a cheap price. So, whoever calls, is doing so knowing PK is looking for a longer term at a fair value.

C- Any GM calling knows, they won't pay cheap for PK in terms of compensation to Habs via trade.

D- Bergevin doesn't want to give big money to PK, so what trade package return could we get that doesn't bring the cap up so much and is as good as PK?? Another young player on a ELC?? But then, won't we find ourselves in the exact same situation again after because Bergevin believes in bridge contracts after ELC?


Bergevin, just looking at A and C, should step back and think. Why is everybody interested in PK, and willing to pay a big return for him, and then give him the contract he wants??? Hmmm, could it be that he might actually be worth it??? He is by no means perfect, but there's little doubt as to him remaining a top pairing Dman. I mean, really, who questions that?? So, what's the risk here???

Bergevin said you need to have vision for the future, not just the now. He's going against his own words by saying he wants to instill a philosophy with bridge contracts. How does that show vision?? I mean, if you're hesitant to the point of locking out a player that's as sure as Subban to become a solid NHLer, your vision sucks, badly.

This is more than just a PK thing to me, this is scaring me from a managerial point of view. If Bergevin had some experience and we could look back at his doings and have an idea of what he can do. Unfortunately, he doesn't. So we have a rookie GM that is locking out arguably your best player over the past 2 years, just based on principle. Can't say that this makes me hopeful for the future. He better sign PK.
What you say depend on what PK's asking for. If PK's asking for 9mil (exaggeration to prove a point) then I don't entirely blame Bergie. You're right in thinking that everyone will want PK. But I don't think everyone will want to sign him for loads amounts of money. I'm positive Bergie sees the talent in PK. But it all comes down to his plan and what's being offered. Which we don't know on both accounts.

Who knows, maybe Bergie's trying to save up space for big ufa signings in the off-season or trades??? I wouldn't be against adding some of the players that will be available.

I want us to sign PK as much as most of us. I'm sure PK will become a great player. But what will it cost us?

We might end up with nothing. We might end up with PK playing extremely well, or very mediocre. And we might end up with not enough room to sign other UFAs that we could be desperately needing.

We can't judge on Bergevin's vision for our future whether we sign or deal PK. It will mostly depend on what he does in the future, or what he doesn't do.

Personally, I hope we sign PK.

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01-24-2013, 09:53 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Le depisteur View Post
Why not? You have to compare with players with same age.

I don't say Del Zotto/Kulikov is equal to Subban, I only say if the 2,75 M$ offer made 3 weeks ago by Bergevin to Subban is a joke for you, I suppose that the 2,5M$ deal of Del Zotto is a true steal for Rangers too. Because both Del Zotto/Kulikov surely received a offer well below of 2.5M$ before of that...
2.75m for 3 years is a lowball offer imo. There is no way Subban is slightly worth more than Del Zotto. Subban plays against top lines while MDZ gets sheltered minutes.

I would be happy with 2 years 4-4.5.

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01-24-2013, 09:54 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Le depisteur View Post
Why not? You have to compare with players with same age.

I don't say Del Zotto/Kulikov is equal to Subban, I only say if the 2,75 M$ offer made 3 weeks ago by Bergevin to Subban is a joke for you, I suppose that the 2,5M$ deal of Del Zotto is a true steal for Rangers too. Because both Del Zotto/Kulikov surely received a offer well below of 2.5M$ before of that...
Because MDZ plays sheltered minutes on the 2nd or 3rd Rangers D pair with tons of PP time. He's basically playing the role Diaz is right now on the Habs.

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01-24-2013, 09:54 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Le depisteur View Post
2.5M$ for Del Zotto and Kulikov, is it a joke too???
For Del Zotto I think that's about right...Kulikov I thought would get a bit more

But I don't think Del Zotto or Kulikov are as good or will be as good as Subban

So.....

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01-24-2013, 09:55 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
au contraire. the more agree to less money the more teams gain leverage.
Again, an agent just has to point at the situations. New York already has Ryan McDonaugh and Marc Staal among other very good young blueliners. If Del Zotto asks for more, Sather can afford to lose him. Kulikov is #2 for the Panthers behind Gubranderson while Ellerby could move up in his spot. Both situations are where there's other guys.

Anaheim there is no other guy. It's just Cam Fowler. He has all the cards. Over in Buffalo, Tyler Myers was all the Sabres had for young D-men and winning the Calder was a lot like what it was for Phaneuf to be nominated for the Calder: oppressive leverage. For Montreal, the closest to a P.K. Subban replacement is Nathan Beaulieu and he's nowhere close to NHL ready. If Subban is gone, there's a hole in the teams development and especially in their current roster.

Unless Bergevin has already talked to a team that is willing to trade someone who can play Subban's minutes in all three zones with at least 30 points, he has no leverage. He loses either way. Meehan knows this. Subban knows this. You should know it.

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01-24-2013, 09:55 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Mats NAslund View Post
It's not about wanting or not wanting this kid...

Price Pacioretty Gorges and on and on all followed Management business rule of a transition contract.....Why should PK not have to as well?

I'll argue that Price is MUCH MUCH more important to this team then PK and he didn't fuss. He signed and played out his transition contract and got rewarded for it in the end.

I say if PK doesn;t want to sign a transition contract then trade him.
Montreal has the likes of Tinordi, Beaulieu and Ellis waiting in the wings and bringing in a guy ala Benn would suit thsi team just fine.

From al the suggested comments from players and news outlets it's not like Subban is apprecited in his own locker room either. This guy thinks he'sigger then the team.

While I'd love to keep PK, I would not keep him at any cost.

Signing him to a long term big money deal now would send the wrong message to the other young stars on this team and more then likely create some anomisty in the dressing room.

If PK doesn't want to be part of the Montreal Canadiesn then let's move on and get someone that does want to be part of a TEAM!

Maybe Edmonton would be interested!
Dude, are you even following the news?

First, you can't compare MaxPac or Gorges or Price's transition deals as to PK's. If I have to explain why, then you need to go back to read the old threads. It's been discussed countless of times.

Second, say you do want to stick to a bridge contract. That's fine. But offer him properly yearly value, not 2.75M.

Third, non of our prospects are set to even come close to what PK is. Not one.

Fourth, you want to trade PK, an unsigned player, for Benn, another one holding out. smart.

Fifth, there's absolutely no reason to think the guys in the locker room have any beef with PK. This is nothing more than BS spewed out by media and their interpretation. You just ate it right now.

Sixth, how exactly does signing PK long term send a bad message? This is the dumbest crap I've read. You have a young player that has played extremely well to the point where he became our #1 Dman and did well. You thank him by giving him a longer deal. Wait a second, you have a kid playing well, making All-Star rookie team, becoming your #1 Dman, and you give him a long term deal for it?? What?!??!?! Horrible message!!!! And the old veterans that are overpaid in the locker room are going to be little babies after they locked out the NHL for the EXACT SAME REASON and be jealous??...What?? How does this make sense in your head?

Seventh, did you read the Stubbs article. Subban says about a million times how he wants to play here.

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Old
01-24-2013, 09:57 AM
  #61
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Do you think Ottawa went to Karlsson after last season and said "We know you scored 70 points as a D this season but you are young and before we give you a reasonable contract, we want to see if you can improve in your own zone.. accept this 2 year contract worth 3 million dollars, it is non negotiable."

Subban might not score that many points but he is just as valuable to our team as Karlsson is to Ottawa. Pay him as he deserves and stop sticking by some imaginary policy you want to create. Gainey had a no negotiation during the season policy.. How did that turn out for us? Souray, Streit, Koivu, Kovalev, Tanguay, Komisarek.. the list goes on.. A list of players who LEFT the team for NOTHING. A 20 goal defenseman, a powerplay savant who actually turns out to be rather good at D, a 2nd line center capable of 50-70 points, a dynamic offensive forward who was a year removed from an 80 point season, a consistent scoring winger who we paid a 1st round pick to get and a player,who at the time, was seen as a premiere shot blocking and physical defenseman.

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01-24-2013, 09:58 AM
  #62
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People wanted to hear what they like and anything else will rub them the wrong way. In the last year of his contract, Sourray kept saying something along the line of "I liked the city, I loved the fans, and would like to sign a new contract to play for the Habs" but his true intention was to walk away and test free agency. Subban told people what was in his mind and people around here quickly turned against him. People enjoyed watching a rookies played like a vet but do not like the rookie to ask for vet's money. Subban played hard every shift, every game. What would happened if he signed a bridge contract of 2 years for 2.5-3M per and suffered a career threatening or career ending injury this year. He was well within his right to ask for a long term contract to protect himself. You wanted to see the same Subban who played hard the last two years and not a Subban who played tentatively, worrying about getting injured. Why MB negotiated and gave a contract with MaxPac and dragging contract negotiation with PK? MaxPac has a good season and MB is comfortable with a 6 years contract but he do es not want to give PK a long term contract despite the fact that PK could play as a Number 1 D? It's all about Markov. He wanted to see how Markov recovered from the knee injury and made a decision about PK's contract accordingly. If Markov's knee is finished, you bet that MB would give PK what he was asking. From the last two games, Markov looked good. You can be certain that MB will never give PK anything long term and he would eventually trade PK if PK do not sign the bridge contract.

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01-24-2013, 09:58 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre Dagenais View Post
2.75m for 3 years is a lowball offer imo. There is no way Subban is slightly worth more than Del Zotto. Subban plays against top lines while MDZ gets sheltered minutes.

I would be happy with 2 years 4-4.5.
Del Zotto accepted 2,5 M$, what was the original first offer made by the Rangers? Surely below of that...

What Subban did to deserve almost 2 times more money than Del Zotto?

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01-24-2013, 09:59 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Pierre Dagenais View Post
2.75m for 3 years is a lowball offer imo. There is no way Subban is slightly worth more than Del Zotto. Subban plays against top lines while MDZ gets sheltered minutes.

I would be happy with 2 years 4-4.5.
I'm hoping for the same kinda numbers!! Makes every sense in the world that he gets 4' to 4.5M

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01-24-2013, 10:01 AM
  #65
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What worries me the most is that it seems like management doesn't seem to see much value in Subba, IMO on a 2 year deal he should be getting 4M to 4.5 per.

And if they are only offering 2.5, and they want to move him, doubt they even ask for much.

I really wish we knew the details to make judgement but from what Subban said, it seems like he is ok with a short term deal at fair price, which should be 4-4.5.

I can't believe a deal isn't done, I literally am just lost, its as likely to see a heading on TSN or Subban traded as it is for a Subban re-signs header.
If they give him a 4 millions a year deal for 2 years, he scores the same amount of points per year, (probably a little more with an healty Markov) he's as good defensively, and the Habs makes the playoff in those 2 years, what does he asks in two years? 7 + ? Why not, we quadrupled is salary after a okay year and the team finishing 15 in the east... you want to raise him and overpay a little on a 2 year contract, but never more than 3.5 per...

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01-24-2013, 10:01 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Le depisteur View Post
Del Zotto accepted 2,5 M$, what was the original first offer made by the Rangers? Surely below of that...

What Subban did to deserve almost 2 times more money than Del Zotto?
Play good defense against opposition's top lines.

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01-24-2013, 10:02 AM
  #67
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Again, an agent just has to point at the situations. New York already has Ryan McDonaugh and Marc Staal among other very good young blueliners. If Del Zotto asks for more, Sather can afford to lose him. Kulikov is #2 for the Panthers behind Gubranderson while Ellerby could move up in his spot. Both situations are where there's other guys.

Anaheim there is no other guy. It's just Cam Fowler. He has all the cards. Over in Buffalo, Tyler Myers was all the Sabres had for young D-men and winning the Calder was a lot like what it was for Phaneuf to be nominated for the Calder: oppressive leverage. For Montreal, the closest to a P.K. Subban replacement is Nathan Beaulieu and he's nowhere close to NHL ready. If Subban is gone, there's a hole in the teams development and especially in their current roster.

Unless Bergevin has already talked to a team that is willing to trade someone who can play Subban's minutes in all three zones with at least 30 points, he has no leverage. He loses either way. Meehan knows this. Subban knows this. You should know it.
Meehan also know it could very well be "you play at that price or you dont play", I hope Subban knows this and that you know this too.

I also hope that everyone knows that, contrary to vets who have been in the league and prove their worth on the ice for a long period of time, a youngster like Subban lose a lot of value when not playing.

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01-24-2013, 10:03 AM
  #68
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What you say depend on what PK's asking for. If PK's asking for 9mil (exaggeration to prove a point) then I don't entirely blame Bergie. You're right in thinking that everyone will want PK. But I don't think everyone will want to sign him for loads amounts of money. I'm positive Bergie sees the talent in PK. But it all comes down to his plan and what's being offered. Which we don't know on both accounts.

Who knows, maybe Bergie's trying to save up space for big ufa signings in the off-season or trades??? I wouldn't be against adding some of the players that will be available.

I want us to sign PK as much as most of us. I'm sure PK will become a great player. But what will it cost us?

We might end up with nothing. We might end up with PK playing extremely well, or very mediocre. And we might end up with not enough room to sign other UFAs that we could be desperately needing.

We can't judge on Bergevin's vision for our future whether we sign or deal PK. It will mostly depend on what he does in the future, or what he doesn't do.

Personally, I hope we sign PK.
Well, we can only go on what we heard, otherwise, why even discuss it.
PK isn't asking for the moon, he said so himself, and Stubbs even said PK isn't asking for Doughty money.

You want to get Subban for cheap, or not at all, so you can go overpay for aging players on the open market?? Ya, terrific vision...

If you are sure that PK will become a great player, you sign him long term now at a cheaper price than it will in a few years. What will it cost you indeed? Knowing PK isn't asking for the moon nor Doughty cash.

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01-24-2013, 10:04 AM
  #69
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Chris Chelios now P.K Subban

It's as if history is trying to repeat itself. Both play a similar style, both have strong characters and there is no doubt in my mind that by the time Subban retires they will both be Norris trophy winners.

Draw the comparables for fun...its scary how many there are.
I hope PK does less cocaine

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01-24-2013, 10:04 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Le depisteur View Post
Del Zotto accepted 2,5 M$, what was the original first offer made by the Rangers? Surely below of that...

What Subban did to deserve almost 2 times more money than Del Zotto?
Del Zotto is not a top pairing defenceman and no, he wouldn't be on Montreal either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Meehan also know it could very well be "you play at that price or you dont play", I hope Subban knows this and that you know this too.

I also hope that everyone knows that, contrary to vets who have been in the league and prove their worth on the ice for a long period of time, a youngster like Subban lose a lot of value when not playing.
Dryden sat for a year and still won Cups. Yashin sat for a year and still ended up being the best player on the Islanders. Lindros sat for a year and still put up a season with more points than games played with the Rangers until the injuries put him out. Markov has been doing a whole lot of sitting due to injuries and he's still Andrei freakin' Markov.

If Subban's value drops, it'll just make him a great bargain for a team. If Subban doesn't play in a half season, he doesn't have much to lose.

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01-24-2013, 10:04 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Pierre Dagenais View Post
2.75m for 3 years is a lowball offer imo. There is no way Subban is slightly worth more than Del Zotto. Subban plays against top lines while MDZ gets sheltered minutes.

I would be happy with 2 years 4-4.5.
And why, for God's sake, Subban's agent, Don Meehan the Great, advised him to accepted the 2 year offer of the Montreal Canadiens???

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01-24-2013, 10:05 AM
  #72
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Well, we can only go on what we heard, otherwise, why even discuss it.
PK isn't asking for the moon, he said so himself, and Stubbs even said PK isn't asking for Doughty money.

You want to get Subban for cheap, or not at all, so you can go overpay for aging players on the open market?? Ya, terrific vision...

If you are sure that PK will become a great player, you sign him long term now at a cheaper price than it will in a few years. What will it cost you indeed? Knowing PK isn't asking for the moon nor Doughty cash.
P.K. also said that what he's asking if a fair deal in HIS opinion...


so, what's fair in HIS opinion ?

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01-24-2013, 10:06 AM
  #73
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Play good defense against opposition's top lines.
Because the Habs defense squad was decimed... Not because Subban is 2 more better than Del Zotto. We finished 15th for this reason, for your information...

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01-24-2013, 10:07 AM
  #74
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Del Zotto is not a top pairing defenceman and no, he wouldn't be on Montreal either.
Last year? You are sure?

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01-24-2013, 10:07 AM
  #75
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Play good defense against opposition's top lines.
And consistently being the best player on the ice in the playoffs.

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