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Philadelphia Phillies (MLB): The "Ruf"fled Offseason Thread

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01-22-2013, 06:19 PM
  #876
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Originally Posted by Broad Street Elite View Post
Generally speaking, I support competition.
With a different manager I'd agree, but not with Chollie. This is a man that played Ibanez for an entire season despite hitting well below replacement level (with suspect defense) while he had Brown and Mayberry on the bench. This is a man that publicly put his GM in a terrible position by borderline demanding a RH'd OF while Mayberry was putting up a fantastic OPS. Is there any question of who gets playing time between Darrin Ruff and Delmon Young?

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01-23-2013, 01:07 AM
  #877
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Originally Posted by CootaRoo View Post
With a different manager I'd agree, but not with Chollie. This is a man that played Ibanez for an entire season despite hitting well below replacement level (with suspect defense) while he had Brown and Mayberry on the bench. This is a man that publicly put his GM in a terrible position by borderline demanding a RH'd OF while Mayberry was putting up a fantastic OPS. Is there any question of who gets playing time between Darrin Ruff and Delmon Young?
are you seriously defending mayberry and brown?

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01-23-2013, 01:15 AM
  #878
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Originally Posted by Slowbro View Post
are you seriously defending mayberry and brown?
Mayberry is better than Delmon Young. Bat ~same with better defense and baserunning. Dom Brown hit better than Young last year, and there's more reason to believe Brown will improve with more experience and at-bats than there is to believe Young will. Mayberry and Brown absolutely deserve defense in this case.

Best case scenario: Ruf and Brown play well and Young is let go.

Scenario where Young helps: Ruf is awful and Young becomes a bat off the bench.

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01-23-2013, 03:52 PM
  #879
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Pretty much my thoughts to a tee (though they don't mention the opportunity cost of Ruff's impending demotion):

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index...-delmon-young/

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01-23-2013, 03:54 PM
  #880
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yeah but you were comparing ibanez and those two...

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01-23-2013, 04:15 PM
  #881
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Originally Posted by Slowbro View Post
yeah but you were comparing ibanez and those two...
I wasn't responding to your comment, but since you thought I did I'll respond now.

In 2011 (the year the Phillies acquired Pence), Ibanez finished with a .707 OPS (575 ABs) while Mayberry finished with a .854 OPS (267 ABs). Chollie went to the media, prior to the trade deadline, to whine and moan about needing a RH'd power bat in the OF despite having one on a 30/100 pace with a .500+ SLG (with pretty damn good corner OF defense, too), while he blindly kept pushing Ibanez's square peg through the lineups round hole while he was playing below replacement level on BOTH sides of the ball.

This whining then forced Amaro to make one of the worst trades of his tenure to acquire an overhyped career .800 OPS corner outfileder by the name of Hunter Pence (you may remember him... he was the one who sucked last year). Meanwhile, one of the top prospects in the league (just a few short years ago) has only been allowed 433 ABs in THREE YEARS while being tossed around like a college coed between AAA, the DL and the majors. And now that he may finally be healed from his Hamate bone break (takes about 2 years to regain full strength) we got out and get a career .317 career OBP Hitler Youth who can't run around the OF (only 2 out of 6 career seasons with a positive WAR... bravo Mr. Young) to steal even more ABs from him.

So, yeah... what were you trying to say again?

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01-23-2013, 06:46 PM
  #882
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Ruben said in a radio interview that he "doesn't care about walks" he just "cares about (run) production". The interview was mostly based around the Young signing.

If I didn't have doubts about Rube before, I definitely do now. No one who doesn't "care about walks" should be allowed to be a MLB GM.

http://www.975thefanatic.com/teams/p...tryID=10494211

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01-23-2013, 06:54 PM
  #883
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Originally Posted by zarley zelepukin View Post
Ruben said in a radio interview that he "doesn't care about walks" he just "cares about (run) production". The interview was mostly based around the Young signing.

If I didn't have doubts about Rube before, I definitely do now. No one who doesn't "care about walks" should be allowed to be a MLB GM.

http://www.975thefanatic.com/teams/p...tryID=10494211
It shows in his signings and even in the system. I always thought that was their theory and now its confirmed. Does he even know walks are directly related to run production?

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01-23-2013, 06:56 PM
  #884
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Originally Posted by FLYguy3911 View Post
It shows in his signings and even in the system. I always thought that was their theory and now its confirmed. Does he even know walks are directly related to run production?
Apparently this basic truth eludes him.

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01-23-2013, 06:58 PM
  #885
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Originally Posted by zarley zelepukin View Post
Ruben said in a radio interview that he "doesn't care about walks" he just "cares about (run) production". The interview was mostly based around the Young signing.

If I didn't have doubts about Rube before, I definitely do now. No one who doesn't "care about walks" should be allowed to be a MLB GM.

http://www.975thefanatic.com/teams/p...tryID=10494211
Doesn't surprise me...amaro has been slowly running the team into the ground since he took over. Any idiot can throw money at free agents but the teams he has put together have been worse and worse since the beginning.

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01-23-2013, 07:03 PM
  #886
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Originally Posted by zarley zelepukin View Post
Apparently this basic truth eludes him.
Just look at the 2008 team. 6 regulars with a league average or better walk rate.

Why do I get the feeling Reuben is trying to single handily disprove the Sabre-metric formula?

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01-23-2013, 07:12 PM
  #887
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Originally Posted by TheIceman26 View Post
Doesn't surprise me...amaro has been slowly running the team into the ground since he took over. Any idiot can throw money at free agents but the teams he has put together have been worse and worse since the beginning.
I still have to give him credit for the Halladay and (first) Lee trade. Those moves made the team better in the next few seasons. But the Pence trade was a big strike against him and some of his other moves have been puzzling. If I look at all the trades he's made, they're good about as often as they're bad. But this apparent philosophy he has is inexcusable.

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01-23-2013, 07:26 PM
  #888
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Originally Posted by zarley zelepukin View Post
I still have to give him credit for the Halladay and (first) Lee trade. Those moves made the team better in the next few seasons. But the Pence trade was a big strike against him and some of his other moves have been puzzling. If I look at all the trades he's made, they're good about as often as they're bad. But this apparent philosophy he has is inexcusable.
as far as building a winning team, hes been pretty bad. I think the Phils are 3rd best in the nl east still... And while I won't be surprised if they make the playoffs with their pitching, I'm not expecting it for the first time since 06.

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01-24-2013, 09:46 AM
  #889
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Braves traded for Justin Upton. Fan-****ing-tastic.

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01-24-2013, 10:10 AM
  #890
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Kind of head scratching that we have stiffs like nix and young on this team. Does rube never look at statistics?

Brown better get 400+ ab's this year or rube really will have successfully destroyed an elite prospect

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01-24-2013, 10:15 AM
  #891
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Originally Posted by Hollywood Couturier View Post
Braves traded for Justin Upton. Fan-****ing-tastic.
See here's the difference between gms, amaro tries to sign Hamilton who will be on his way down soon, braves trade for a guy heading into his prime. Atlanta is stacked this year, their pitching is just as good imo and their line up blows the phils outta the water. Atlanta has a team that could win 13 division titles again with their age and skill, they rebuilt the complete right way.

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01-24-2013, 12:24 PM
  #892
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Originally Posted by TheIceman26 View Post
See here's the difference between gms, amaro tries to sign Hamilton who will be on his way down soon, braves trade for a guy heading into his prime. Atlanta is stacked this year, their pitching is just as good imo and their line up blows the phils outta the water. Atlanta has a team that could win 13 division titles again with their age and skill, they rebuilt the complete right way.
I think the difference is that Amaro cashed in his elite trade chips on Hunter Pence, and other GMs saved them for Upton or, maybe next year, Stanton. Atlanta gave up a good bit though. Obviously Upton's got the potential to be a huge difference maker but he hasn't been as good a player as Martin Prado in 2 of the last 3 seasons.

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01-24-2013, 12:45 PM
  #893
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Originally Posted by zarley zelepukin View Post
I think the difference is that Amaro cashed in his elite trade chips on Hunter Pence, and other GMs saved them for Upton or, maybe next year, Stanton. Atlanta gave up a good bit though. Obviously Upton's got the potential to be a huge difference maker but he hasn't been as good a player as Martin Prado in 2 of the last 3 seasons.
That's an incredibly talented outfield they now have with the Uptons and Heyward, with BJ being the oldest at what 27?

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01-24-2013, 01:27 PM
  #894
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Originally Posted by Hollywood Couturier View Post
Braves traded for Justin Upton. Fan-****ing-tastic.
For Prado and Delgado... don't actually like this deal for Atlanta, tbh. Prado is very underrated (better WAR the past 3 seasons than Upton - 12.1 vs. 9.2) and Delgado looks like he is a legit ace in the making that I wasn't looking forward to facing multiple times per year for the next 6 seasons minimum.

Honestly, the only reason this deal makes any sense is if Atlanta didn't want to pay the price to extend Prado which is insane because last I heard he only wanted about 10M/year (8M less over the next 2 years vs. Upton's deal) - which would put him at a very reasonable (roughly) 2.5M/WAR over the past 3 years.

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01-24-2013, 01:35 PM
  #895
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Originally Posted by zarley zelepukin View Post
I think the difference is that Amaro cashed in his elite trade chips on Hunter Pence, and other GMs saved them for Upton or, maybe next year, Stanton. Atlanta gave up a good bit though. Obviously Upton's got the potential to be a huge difference maker but he hasn't been as good a player as Martin Prado in 2 of the last 3 seasons.
I mean other than batting average, Upton has better stats than prado but the difference is the braves new short stop is 23 and had a .335 OBP so prado is easily replaced. Uggla is the oldest player at 32. Everyone else is early mid twenties hitting their prime. Seriously they're the anti-Phillies. A team that truly knows when to trade their prospects and when to keep them while staying competitive.

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01-24-2013, 01:53 PM
  #896
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Originally Posted by TheIceman26 View Post
I mean other than batting average, Upton has better stats than prado but the difference is the braves new short stop is 23 and had a .335 OBP so prado is easily replaced. Uggla is the oldest player at 32. Everyone else is early mid twenties hitting their prime. Seriously they're the anti-Phillies. A team that truly knows when to trade their prospects and when to keep them while staying competitive.
Prado was mostly playing LF for the Braves last year. Overall their stats were pretty close last year and in 2010, with Prado slightly better, mostly because a single is greater than a walk. Upton was also in a more HR friendly home park. It's a lot to give up a player who's that close in value to the guy your getting when you're also giving up a top prospect. But Upton is younger, and potentially a lot better than Prado going forward. Pretty good trade for both teams, I think.

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01-24-2013, 01:59 PM
  #897
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Originally Posted by zarley zelepukin View Post
Prado was mostly playing LF for the Braves last year. Overall their stats were pretty close last year and in 2010, with Prado slightly better, mostly because a single is greater than a walk. Upton was also in a more HR friendly home park. It's a lot to give up a player who's that close in value to the guy your getting when you're also giving up a top prospect. But Upton is younger, and potentially a lot better than Prado going forward. Pretty good trade for both teams, I think.
I agree. I don't think either team won the trade just that, Atlanta was really looking for a power bat and they got it, while prados high OBP is replaced by another younger guy in the system. That's good asset management.

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01-24-2013, 02:38 PM
  #898
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Originally Posted by TheIceman26 View Post
I agree. I don't think either team won the trade just that, Atlanta was really looking for a power bat and they got it, while prados high OBP is replaced by another younger guy in the system. That's good asset management.
Question for you.

If the Phillies, back in 2006, had traded Cole Hamels (a 23 year old ace in the making) and Jimmy Rollins (a consistent 4 WAR/year, late 20s player still in arbitration) for Matt Holiday (a mid 20s corner OFer with an average .850ish career OPS in a couple seasons in the majors) then what would you have thought about that asset management?

That is a very, very comparable metaphor to Prado+Delgado for Upton, imo. And I, obviously, think it would be terribly lopsided in Colorado's favor.

Edit. Ignore me, I mistook Delgado for Teheran...


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01-24-2013, 02:48 PM
  #899
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Originally Posted by CootaRoo View Post
Question for you.

If the Phillies, back in 2006, had traded Cole Hamels (a 23 year old ace in the making) and Jimmy Rollins (a consistent 4 WAR/year, late 20s player still in arbitration) for Matt Holiday (a mid 20s corner OFer with an average .850ish career OPS in a couple seasons in the majors) then what would you have thought about that asset management?

That is a very, very comparable metaphor to Prado+Delgado for Upton, imo. And I, obviously, think it would be terribly lopsided in Colorado's favor.
I don't think its a good analogy because the Phillies didn't have a young ace on their team in 06. Braves have medlen and minor currently with them and Teheran who's ceiling is around Delgados.

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01-24-2013, 03:54 PM
  #900
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I don't think its a good analogy because the Phillies didn't have a young ace on their team in 06. Braves have medlen and minor currently with them and Teheran who's ceiling is around Delgados.
They had Gavin Floyd, Gio Gonzalez, and Carlos Carrasco right? Floyd was supposed to be better than Hamels at one point, and Carrasco was supposed to be a top of the rotation starter.

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