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P.K. Subban resigns with Montreal, Jan. 28 (post #1)

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Old
01-23-2013, 10:29 PM
  #251
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
We just traded JVR for defensive help.

Now we're going to trade Voracek for defensive help?

I feel like this is not a good idea.

Really, I think the best offer I'd do is probably

1st + Gostisbehere + Meszaros/Grossmann
I'm a bit wary of anything involving Gostisbehere, but I'm good with anything that has Grossmann on it. Not that I hate him, but he's someone I'd least miss on defense.

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01-23-2013, 10:33 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Gert B Frobe View Post
agreed. fleece the Habs for the 2013 versions of Desjardins and Leclair (they can keep Gilber Dionne). Hartnell can be Recchi and Subban can be Desjardins. Only problem is the Habs sure as hell don't have a young John Leclair
Patches could fit nicely

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01-24-2013, 08:15 AM
  #253
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Originally Posted by Gert B Frobe View Post
agreed. fleece the Habs for the 2013 versions of Desjardins and Leclair (they can keep Gilber Dionne). Hartnell can be Recchi and Subban can be Desjardins. Only problem is the Habs sure as hell don't have a young John Leclair
3 way trade with the Stars to get Jamie Benn?

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01-24-2013, 08:23 AM
  #254
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B. Schenn + for Subban. Offseason sign Zubrus and Gagne for a shutdown line. Just a thought.

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01-24-2013, 08:27 AM
  #255
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3 way trade with the Stars to get Jamie Benn?
Benn would likely cost couturier+... And idk. Id think about it. I really like Benn. He plays all fwd positions and can do everything well. pass, shoot, crash and bang, forecheck, backcheck. This team could really use a guy like him. Benn as our top line RW for the forseeable future could be great.

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Originally Posted by BillDineen View Post
B. Schenn + for Subban. Offseason sign Zubrus and Gagne for a shutdown line. Just a thought.
I honestly believe you'd be more likely to see Couts traded than Schenn. If you trade one you probably have to trade both of them, to avoid a bitter remaining Schenn.

I love Couts and I don't want to trade him. I wouldn't for Subban because I think a deal around Voracek could work, but I would consider Couts for Benn. But I probably still wouldn't pull the trigger


Last edited by SnS: 01-24-2013 at 10:35 AM.
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01-24-2013, 09:49 AM
  #256
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Im not sure we include Schenn or Couts in a trade for Subban. I know this has been said before but look at our offer for Weber according to Dreger..

Matt Read
Mez
1st rounder
2 second rounders
3rd rounder I beleive.

Even in serious trade discussions with Nashville for Weber that was our final offer made to them. No Schenn or Couts. Now I wouldn't mind seeing Voracek being sent in a deal for Subban, but Schenn and Couts seem to be off limits as of right now.

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01-24-2013, 10:08 AM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Prongo View Post
Im not sure we include Schenn or Couts in a trade for Subban. I know this has been said before but look at our offer for Weber according to Dreger..

Matt Read
Mez
1st rounder
2 second rounders
3rd rounder I beleive.

Even in serious trade discussions with Nashville for Weber that was our final offer made to them. No Schenn or Couts. Now I wouldn't mind seeing Voracek being sent in a deal for Subban, but Schenn and Couts seem to be off limits as of right now.
My patience w/ Schenn is running thin. At this point, I'd absolutely consider him in a trade for a legit #1. At least JVR showed flashes of extreme talent @ the NHL level... what has Brayden Schenn shown us other than a few big hits?

The only problem is it seems to me that if you deal one Schenn, you've got to deal them both.

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01-24-2013, 10:12 AM
  #258
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Why not just offer sheet him? At this point I believe Montreal would be happy with the picks they'd receive. If not, then they bite the bullet and sign him and deal with the cap hit. Win win for Flyers. We either get a good young d-man, or we stick it to a team in conference and piss off the fan base while we're at it.

Even if Holmgren knew they'd match, offer anyways just to get the city of montreal into riot mode.

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01-24-2013, 10:15 AM
  #259
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Originally Posted by FlyingHigh28 View Post
My patience w/ Schenn is running thin. At this point, I'd absolutely consider him in a trade for a legit #1. At least JVR showed flashes of extreme talent @ the NHL level... what has Brayden Schenn shown us other than a few big hits?
So you thought we gave up on JVR too early but it's ok to give up on Schenn..a player who is much more equivalent to a guy like LeClair than JVR is.

Step back...


Last edited by SnS: 01-24-2013 at 10:36 AM.
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01-24-2013, 10:17 AM
  #260
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Everyone, an offer sheet would be matched. We wouldn't probably go down that route again either. Montreal is trying to get him on their terms, but would match any sheet thrown his way.

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01-24-2013, 10:20 AM
  #261
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I don't know why we would trade Meszaros. He looks better again this season already.

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01-24-2013, 10:23 AM
  #262
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Originally Posted by BillDineen View Post
I don't know why we would trade Meszaros. He looks better again this season already.
I'd rather have pk than mez...nothing against him I think he's been good considering his injury.

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01-24-2013, 10:23 AM
  #263
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Originally Posted by BillDineen View Post
I don't know why we would trade Meszaros. He looks better again this season already.
I think if Mez was asked as part of the package for Subban you have to move him. Mez, after this year, has one more deal until UFA. Subban is growing into a star defender(something Mez will never be) and has the potential to round out as a true #1 defender. If they wanted Mez+Ghost, I would do that deal in a heartbeat.

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01-24-2013, 10:27 AM
  #264
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Originally Posted by OccupySouthBroadSt View Post
So you thought we gave up on JVR too early but it's ok to give up on Schenn..a player who is much more equivalent to a guy like LeClair than JVR is.

Step back and think about your idiotic statement....
Trading Schenn to get Subban wouldn't be "giving up" on him. It's trading a potential #1C for a #1D. The Flyers need the #1D a lot more.

I never said I'd trade Brayden Schenn for scraps and I certainly wouldn't trade him for a defenseman equivalent to Luke Schenn. But I am more willing to explore trading him for a legitimate #1 defenseman than I was last year. To me, the Flyers' "untouchable list looks like this:
#1 Giroux
#2 Couturier
/end list

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01-24-2013, 10:28 AM
  #265
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Originally Posted by Prongo View Post
Everyone, an offer sheet would be matched. We wouldn't probably go down that route again either. Montreal is trying to get him on their terms, but would match any sheet thrown his way.
exactly why it could be done. Offer sheet whatever Subban has been asking for (Which montreal has not wanted to do). Forcing them to match. Who does hurt? except Montreal.

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01-24-2013, 10:29 AM
  #266
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exactly why it could be done. Offer sheet whatever Subban has been asking for (Which montreal has not wanted to do). Forcing them to match. Who does hurt? except Montreal.
Or the Flyers chances of getting him in a trade. The Weber situation was different. Nashville had to pull the owners together to make sure they had enough money to afford him. Montreal does not have that problem, they want to make this team better now and in the future, which is why they are trying to get Subban on their typical 2 year deal.

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01-24-2013, 10:31 AM
  #267
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Originally Posted by Prongo View Post
Or the Flyers chances of getting him in a trade. The Weber situation was different. Nashville had to pull the owners together to make sure they had enough money to afford him. Montreal does not have that problem, they want to make this team better now and in the future, which is why they are trying to get Subban on their typical 2 year deal.
OK fair point

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01-24-2013, 10:38 AM
  #268
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Originally Posted by FlyingHigh28 View Post
Trading Schenn to get Subban wouldn't be "giving up" on him. It's trading a potential #1C for a #1D. The Flyers need the #1D a lot more.

I never said I'd trade Brayden Schenn for scraps and I certainly wouldn't trade him for a defenseman equivalent to Luke Schenn. But I am more willing to explore trading him for a legitimate #1 defenseman than I was last year. To me, the Flyers' "untouchable list looks like this:
#1 Giroux
#2 Couturier
/end list
It's really no different than trading JVR's inconsistent ways with that of Luke Schenn's ..they traded potential for potential. Subban has shown more than B Schenn but we really haven't seen what B Schenn has to offer..we saw more with JVR at least and it was inconsistent although injuries didn't help I agree. Subban is ahead of B Schenn obviously and yes we need a D man more than a forward just like with L Schenn vs JVR but I think B Schenn's upside b/c of his toughness has more upside than JVR..although Subban has more upside than L Schenn.

In short, It's hard to say how much of a 1 for 1 Subban for B Schenn would be especially since we would have to give up more for Subban than Schenn so it wouldn't be a 1 for 1 necessarily. I just worry out of desperation for a puck moving D man we give up more than we should....

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01-24-2013, 10:51 AM
  #269
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Originally Posted by OccupySouthBroadSt View Post
It's really no different than trading JVR's inconsistent ways with that of Luke Schenn's ..they traded potential for potential. Subban has shown more than B Schenn but we really haven't seen what B Schenn has to offer..we saw more with JVR at least and it was inconsistent although injuries didn't help I agree. Subban is ahead of B Schenn obviously and yes we need a D man more than a forward just like with L Schenn vs JVR but I think B Schenn's upside b/c of his toughness has more upside than JVR..although Subban has more upside than L Schenn.

In short, It's hard to say how much of a 1 for 1 Subban for B Schenn would be especially since we would have to give up more for Subban than Schenn so it wouldn't be a 1 for 1 necessarily. I just worry out of desperation for a puck moving D man we give up more than we should....
I don't look @ the Luke Schenn / JVR trade as "potential for potential". One of them (JVR) has the opportunity to be an elite 1st line power-forward, the kind of guy who never becomes available via free agent and is thought of as a franchise player. The other guy (L. Schenn) has no offensive ability or potential. He cannot / will not ever be a true #1 defenseman. His top potential is to become a great shutdown defenseman, which is nice, but those types of players are regularly available via free agency and the absolute best guys in the business @ shutting opponents down while providing no offense barely make that much more than Schenn makes now (as far as cap hit goes).

My issue wasn't with trading JVR, it's with the return we got for him. If Luke was the best we could do, we should've retained him for another year.

Likewise in this situation I'm open to trading B. Schenn (just as I was open to trading JVR). I'm not OK w/ another GM skullf***ing us on the value yet again though. I'd be cool trading Schenn for Subban, but I'm not adding Voracek or Simmonds or Read or something outrageous like that. But if we could get a close to 1 for 1 trade w/ us throwing in a 2nd rounder or something, I'd probably do it. Or if we could trade both Schenns for Subban + another valuable player from the Habs, I'd do that too.

I don't think you really have to worry about Brayden Schenn being traded though, because I just can't see Holmgren and co. trading Brayden while keeping Luke and I think it's tough at this point to move the Schenns in a package deal and get good value for them.

But if Brayden were ever to be traded, I'd root for him to be successful (unless he was with a division rival). And I wouldn't speak poorly about him like a ton of people do w/ JVR. It's really just ridiculous to me how many people knock a 23 year old because he's got consistency issues...

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01-24-2013, 11:05 AM
  #270
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Originally Posted by Prongo View Post
Or the Flyers chances of getting him in a trade. The Weber situation was different. Nashville had to pull the owners together to make sure they had enough money to afford him. Montreal does not have that problem, they want to make this team better now and in the future, which is why they are trying to get Subban on their typical 2 year deal.
So they don't get him in a trade. But Montreal just got hosed on their cap space, making them less likely to be able to compete for other players. Really, I see marginal downside here.

And if teams start the whiny "What a violation of the game's unwritten rules" BS, then screw them. They don't want offer sheets a part of the game? Should have pushed to get that changed in the CBA. It's there, and teams like the Flyers are perfect for taking advantage of it. They've got money, they like to take risks, they want to win, and they have an organization that takes care of its players such that they should have few worries about offer sheets coming their way.

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01-24-2013, 11:40 AM
  #271
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Still don't like the JVR trade.

Had we not panicked and traded him, we could've traded BSchenn for Subban about now.

Not that I like Subban, but I really liked JVR.

JVR+Weber > JVR+Subban > Schenn+Schenn

Man, I wish we got Weber so none of this mattered.

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01-24-2013, 11:44 AM
  #272
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Originally Posted by FlyingHigh28 View Post
I don't look @ the Luke Schenn / JVR trade as "potential for potential". One of them (JVR) has the opportunity to be an elite 1st line power-forward, the kind of guy who never becomes available via free agent and is thought of as a franchise player. The other guy (L. Schenn) has no offensive ability or potential. He cannot / will not ever be a true #1 defenseman. His top potential is to become a great shutdown defenseman, which is nice, but those types of players are regularly available via free agency and the absolute best guys in the business @ shutting opponents down while providing no offense barely make that much more than Schenn makes now (as far as cap hit goes).

My issue wasn't with trading JVR, it's with the return we got for him. If Luke was the best we could do, we should've retained him for another year.

Likewise in this situation I'm open to trading B. Schenn (just as I was open to trading JVR). I'm not OK w/ another GM skullf***ing us on the value yet again though. I'd be cool trading Schenn for Subban, but I'm not adding Voracek or Simmonds or Read or something outrageous like that. But if we could get a close to 1 for 1 trade w/ us throwing in a 2nd rounder or something, I'd probably do it. Or if we could trade both Schenns for Subban + another valuable player from the Habs, I'd do that too.

I don't think you really have to worry about Brayden Schenn being traded though, because I just can't see Holmgren and co. trading Brayden while keeping Luke and I think it's tough at this point to move the Schenns in a package deal and get good value for them.

But if Brayden were ever to be traded, I'd root for him to be successful (unless he was with a division rival). And I wouldn't speak poorly about him like a ton of people do w/ JVR. It's really just ridiculous to me how many people knock a 23 year old because he's got consistency issues...
It's equally ridiculous and hypocritical to knock and "speak poorly" of B Schenn like you did by saying all he's shown us is that he can check? Has he not been injured and is he not young? This is where I'm having a problem with your holier than though mockery of people who have a different view of JVR's ceiling. You say he may be an elite power forward so his potential is higher than that of L Schenn who you pretty much say is just at best a top 4 D man..maybe so. But my belief is that JVR will probably be a serviceable player..50pt type guy and not some elite player like you think.

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01-24-2013, 11:45 AM
  #273
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Still don't like the JVR trade.

Had we not panicked and traded him, we could've traded BSchenn for Subban about now.

Not that I like Subban, but I really liked JVR.

JVR+Weber > JVR+Subban > Schenn+Schenn

Man, I wish we got Weber so none of this mattered.
not a fan of Subban's contract demands.

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01-24-2013, 11:56 AM
  #274
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It's equally ridiculous and hypocritical to knock and "speak poorly" of B Schenn like you did by saying all he's shown us is that he can check? Has he not been injured and is he not young? This is where I'm having a problem with your holier than though mockery of people who have a different view of JVR's ceiling. You say he may be an elite power forward so his potential is higher than that of L Schenn who you pretty much say is just at best a top 4 D man..maybe so. But my belief is that JVR will probably be a serviceable player..50pt type guy and not some elite player like you think.
You apparently are misinterpreting my post. I wasn't knocking Brayden Schenn, I was simply saying that all he's shown he can consistently do @ the NHL level is bang bodies (since everyone knocked JVR for consistency). I was simply saying that if our organization considered (and eventually did) trade JVR, we should consider trading Schenn in the price is right. That doesn't mean I think he's a 3rd line grinder, or that I don't think he has talent / promise, it just means he's unproven just like JVR. Hence, if possible, I would look to trade him (trading from a position of strength) for a franchise defenseman (a position of immense weakness).

Jeez man, you're really reaching trying to make me out to be a Schenn hater / critic. I like him a lot, actually wore his jersey to the home opener, I'm just willing to explore all avenues to improve this team

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01-24-2013, 12:09 PM
  #275
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Originally Posted by FlyingHigh28 View Post
You apparently are misinterpreting my post. I wasn't knocking Brayden Schenn, I was simply saying that all he's shown he can consistently do @ the NHL level is bang bodies (since everyone knocked JVR for consistency). I was simply saying that if our organization considered (and eventually did) trade JVR, we should consider trading Schenn in the price is right. That doesn't mean I think he's a 3rd line grinder, or that I don't think he has talent / promise, it just means he's unproven just like JVR. Hence, if possible, I would look to trade him (trading from a position of strength) for a franchise defenseman (a position of immense weakness).

Jeez man, you're really reaching trying to make me out to be a Schenn hater / critic. I like him a lot, actually wore his jersey to the home opener, I'm just willing to explore all avenues to improve this team
I don't know ....when somebody says they are losing patience with a player after only playing 57 games in the NHL it's kind of hard to not interpret somebody at least as a critic..

Seriously man you are kind of all over the board. I think I know what you are getting at and it's not necessarily unreasonable but it's how you frame things that gets equally confusing and contradictory..that is all.

Anyway...my main point is that you think JVR has a higher ceiling and we weren't patient and the return was not good enough. My argument is that it might be a wash still b/c I don't see him as an elite player and yeah L Schenn is not gonna be one either. As far as B Schenn...I want to be patient with him too and it doesn't seem we'll be able to trade 1 for 1 for him either (especially if right now you see him as just some checker) so we have to give up more so yeah we are in agreement it shouldn't be done in that instance. With that it doesn't seem likely he will be traded but then again nothing surprises me with the Flyers...

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