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P.K. Subban Thread - Edition 6.0 - #BlameSubban

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01-24-2013, 10:35 AM
  #126
JustAHabFan
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Agreed...his problem is that he has an outgoing personality in a sport where personality is frowned upon.
You hit the nail on the head.

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01-24-2013, 10:35 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
What about Kaberle at 4.25?

Subban's contract demands are not unrealistic. Especially when you look at what premiere young D get paid across the league. Teams seem eager to lock them up. Why? BECAUSE THEY ARE HARD TO COME BY. But we don't want ours, no, because it has to be a BRIDGE deal. Why? No one knows. It's just a stupid principle.
Kaberle (who I dont like much) has been a +/- 40 pts defenseman for OVER a decade... he even put up 50+ and 60+ pts seaons...

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01-24-2013, 10:35 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
We all know why they aren't labelled with those problems and Subban is. However, we really don't need this debate. People don't like to admit to it and it's best to leave their heads in the sand than deal with the true issue.
Damn, there must be something about Turris that I'm missing. He's pretty white.

Making anything like that into a racial issue is just ignorant. Subban's teammates have shown that they get annoyed with him and he has been labelled with attitude problems because there are rumours that he has them. It has nothing to do with his race.

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01-24-2013, 10:36 AM
  #129
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I agree with you, but the fact still is that Subban has attitude problems. Trust me you wouldve known if Benn and O'reilly were not liked in the room
Apart from being eccentric, I haven't a clue what these "attitude problems" that people keep citing are

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01-24-2013, 10:36 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Habtchum View Post
North of 5 milion for many years is not shabby too.
you mean similar money to what we gave 34yo roman hamrlik?

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01-24-2013, 10:36 AM
  #131
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How do you think he will be received in the room? You think they will be thrilled when he comes back? You think he's thrilled to come back?

Don't be so naive.
I think he'll be glad it's over and they'll be thrilled to have him. Not sure what your point is?

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01-24-2013, 10:36 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Habtchum View Post
Kaberle has at least 10 years of pro hockey under his belt, and he got the stats too.
Yet after wining the cup with a team... They did not ask him back. Didn't even tender him a contract. He signed with the Canes. They couldn't WAIT to get rid of him. Then we got him and guess what? He's terribad.

The goal is to win the ****ing cup. It isn't to sit there and look at your roster and go "WOW, look how many players I have below market value!!"

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01-24-2013, 10:37 AM
  #133
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If PK maintains his progression (or even slows, but logically his prime is at about 26, so he should continue to progress), in 2 years he will probably cost a lot more than what he's asking now, correct? ( I know this is based of rumours, but let's say he's asking roughly $5M)

By that logic, it's not a matter of money, but a matter of principle (bridge contracts).

If we alienate our #1 d-man for the last two years over a matter of principle that holds little logic, I'm not sure how I would react, but it wouldn't be pretty.

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01-24-2013, 10:37 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Kaberle (who I dont like much) has been a +/- 40 pts defenseman for OVER a decade... he even put up 50+ and 60+ pts seaons...
he's also terrible in his own end and rode on the back of mccabe for his 2 best seasons.

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01-24-2013, 10:38 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
Damn, there must be something about Turris that I'm missing. He's pretty white.

Making anything like that into a racial issue is just ignorant. Subban's teammates have shown that they get annoyed with him and he has been labelled with attitude problems because there are rumours that he has them. It has nothing to do with his race.
So because they don't like his personality he has "attitude" problems? Have you ever been on a ****ing team before? Not everyone likes each other in the room. There are people who have nothing in common who barely speak to each other outside team functions. When you're on the ice? You are all brothers. That is all that matters.

If people in the room are ******** because Subban has an eccentric personality than I think THEY need to grow up and not Subban.

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01-24-2013, 10:38 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Kenny Powders View Post
I agree with you, but the fact still is that Subban has attitude problems. Trust me you wouldve known if Benn and O'reilly were not liked in the room
So you posting it on a messageboard makes it a FACT?

I have never heard anybody associated with the team say he had an attitude problem. Maybe he lacked maturity a certain points, but I could make a long list of NHLers you can say that about, a lot of them now stars or superstars.

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01-24-2013, 10:39 AM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Habtchum View Post
Have you read the interview with him in the Montreal Gazette today ?

Theze are His words,not fiction.
I did read it. And I just read again. Your comment is your interpretation. No where does it say he isn't listening to his agent. No where does it say he disrespects his coach or management. If there were issues last year between him and coaches. That was due to last year's crew. And PK was probably not the only one frutrated with the situation.

So yes, your judgement about PK being higher than the Habs was baseless.

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Originally Posted by HomaridII View Post
In my opinion, and its just my opinion, the big problem isn't the money, but the term of the contract.

I believe Habs want 2 years, Subban wants a long term deal.

I am not a talent evaluator, nor a scout, but my personal believe is that it is stupid not to sign him to a long term deal at 4-5 million.

But I also do not like some of his comments, like saying he wants to be paid what he thinks he is worth, etc.. honestly those comments are part of PK being PK, what makes him great and why we all love him, but they are also typical of what gets him in trouble sometimes, he has a very high opinion of himself, which gives him great confidence and the ability to play shutdown D against Crosby in his first playoff game, but also makes him come across as cocky, selfish and arrogant. Can't have one without the other IMO ... Hal Gill said it best when he said after he left, that you have to let PK be PK, you don't change him .. but you have to understand, that means you get some bad with the good too.
Agreed

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Originally Posted by Kenny Powders View Post
Blinded by love. If the guys in the room wanted Subban, they wouldve call for it in the media. He's not 100% loved and it shows.
I'm not blinded by love. That's just a silly argument people use to undermine other people's opinions. I'm all for signing PK. But at the right price. If he's too demanding, I'm not against trading him.

It would be unprofessional for payers in the room to call out for or against Subban. They know the sport is a business. And how much other players make is none of their concern. And the players have showed neutrality so far. They don't want to know or get involved in other players signings. As much as they don't want others involved in theirs. That's called professional etiquette. And I strongly doubt the players will judge PK on his contract. Otherwise, Gomez would not have been so loved in the room.

Try again some other time.

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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
You realize Stubbs had a 1 on 1 with PK recently right?? Where PK came out with his words about wanting fair value, etc..
If after this interview, Stubbs says PK isn't looking for Doughty cash, I think there's a very good chance he's right. It could be an opinion, it could also be an off the record statement from PK.
But being a guy that had the chance to talk to PK, I won't believe a random rumor over his words.
I did read it. Twice. No where does it state that PK doesn'T want Doughty money. It only states what PK says. That PK wants his fair value. PK knows he's played very well and has been a huge piece of the team. And he wants to be payed accordingly. That's all that's ever said.

You're right that PK may have mentioned something off the record about the price range. But Stubbs does not mention anything about it.

Personally, I believe it's contract length.

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01-24-2013, 10:39 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
Damn, there must be something about Turris that I'm missing. He's pretty white.

Making anything like that into a racial issue is just ignorant. Subban's teammates have shown that they get annoyed with him and he has been labelled with attitude problems because there are rumours that he has them. It has nothing to do with his race.
I think it's ignorant to think think race has nothing to do with all the hate PK has and is getting.

I'm not saying race is why he's not signed...but race for sure plays a factor in all the 'attitude problems' rumors that you keep hearing/reading people mention but not actually prove.

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01-24-2013, 10:39 AM
  #139
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
fixed.
and what is your point? if you don't offer pk fair value then you have the situation we have now. you still don't get the player

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Old
01-24-2013, 10:40 AM
  #140
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Yet after wining the cup with a team... They did not ask him back. Didn't even tender him a contract. He signed with the Canes. They couldn't WAIT to get rid of him. Then we got him and guess what? He's terribad.

The goal is to win the ****ing cup. It isn't to sit there and look at your roster and go "WOW, look how many players I have below market value!!"
Yes he was. and yet he produced at a 40 pts pace with us...

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01-24-2013, 10:40 AM
  #141
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Both sides need to suck it up but Subban needs to realize the team is running things and has a set agenda for all ELC players with a transition contract. If Subban wants to be here as badly as he says he will suck it up and sign one I do not think he should get more than 3.5/yr max though.

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01-24-2013, 10:40 AM
  #142
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Originally Posted by malton View Post
you mean similar money to what we gave 34yo roman hamrlik?
Once again, you cannot compare a salary given to a vet player who is sweating and bleeding in this league for over ten years and a young guy with only a couple of seasons under the belt.

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01-24-2013, 10:41 AM
  #143
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
I'm not saying race is why he's not signed...but race for sure plays a factor in all the 'attitude problems' rumors that you keep hearing/reading people mention but not actually prove.
Look back to how many of the talking points started with Don Cherry, the closest thing there is in the NHL community to a confirmed xenophobe -- who has no relationship tighter than a burned bridge in the Montreal organization but didn't mind sowing the manure wide and deep.

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01-24-2013, 10:41 AM
  #144
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
If we can get PK for 5 year $25M, I say git er' done.

That being said, PK would likely be better off taking a 2 year (16 month) bridge contract and going for the $6M+ money south of what Price got in a year and a half. Just my opinion but I think he's ego is getting in the way of a better contract.

Just to back up my post, Gorges would have signed for less, longer term before his bridge contract. I think he was asking for $3.5M and ended up gettin more than that by waiting. Same for Price, same for Patches. All got more money on longer contracts by waiting the 2 years, proving themselves and they were rewarded for their effort.

For that reason, I'm kind of torn. Would I do a long term deal at a lower number than would he'd get in 2 years, hells yeah. I'd go 5 - 6 years at between $5-$5.5 million. That being said, I can still see why the Habs want the bridge because you don't know what will happen and if PK continues to progress or not. We've seen this happen with a few promising, younger players who shown great promise and than wind up sucking for whatever reason be it injuries, lack of progression etc...

I can see why this is a difficuly negociation but the one thing I don't like is that PK came off sounding really bad in his interview in my opinion. Very much into himself and less into the team. Say what you will but many better players took a little off the table and showed their loyalty and were greatly rewarded for it. Yzerman, Sakic, Brodeur etc... they all could have gone elsewhere or driven up their own price but didn't and they're legends because of it. There's an old saying that you always leave something on the table during a negiciation to make the other side happy. It seems that PK wants EVERYTHING coming his way and I don't like that sense of entitlement after just 2 years in the league. A little humility and towing the company line would go a long way in a situation like this. It's not like he won't get paid and paid well.

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01-24-2013, 10:41 AM
  #145
ECWHSWI
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and what is your point? if you don't offer pk fair value then you have the situation we have now. you still don't get the player
UFAs usually sign for more for the simple fact they are UFAs.

fair again, so, what's fair for PK in his own opinion ?

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01-24-2013, 10:41 AM
  #146
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I just read what he said to Stubbs, and I got to say this does not look good. The fact that he wants premium D money because he's proven he can handle the pressure of Montreal, and that he has accomplished a lot in 2 years, is pretty lame. Yes he seems to thrive here, but he's yet to prove he's anywhere near all-star calibre.

I think the only way out of this for Bergevin is to offer Subban a Semin-like contract. Basically a lot of money for one year, and hope they can work things out before July 1st. If it doesn't work out, at least you can stop his value from dropping like Heatley's did, if you want to trade him. If he sits for the whole year, i think we'll end up losing him for a lot less otherwise.

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01-24-2013, 10:43 AM
  #147
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
I think it's ignorant to think think race has nothing to do with all the hate PK has and is getting.

I'm not saying race is why he's not signed...but race for sure plays a factor in all the 'attitude problems' rumors that you keep hearing/reading people mention but not actually prove.
Ah yes, because he's the only player of his type that has ever had anything negative said or posted about his personality -- and it's just because he's black.

What a crock of ****. Look down the line at any and all the players that have been labelled as locker room problems. It has nothing to do with his race and everything to do with the way he relates to people, obviously.

There's a difference between not liking someone's eccentric personality (Bryzgalov for example) and that person just being a ******. Most reports are that Subban can be pretty douchey. That's probably why people dislike him. You've obviously never been on a team before.

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01-24-2013, 10:43 AM
  #148
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
You dont get is for a very simple reason, not once I said P.K. is a greedy ******* or anything.

But since you want to believe Habs management is wrong so much, everyone who doesnt think that way is against P.K.
You're putting in question what he thinks is fair value. In the next post, you're suggesting that the insider might have gotten it wrong with 500K on every amount thrown out by him.
You suggest PK might be asking as much as 6.5M (I'm guessing this is over a long term deal), which means Doughty cash, despite another journalist that had the privilege of interviewing him recently saying he isn't looking at such a deal.

You don't need to write it word for word, I can read between the lines. ***** might have been harsh, but it's tough to keep up with all the crap being spewed out here.

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01-24-2013, 10:44 AM
  #149
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
I think it's ignorant to think think race has nothing to do with all the hate PK has and is getting.

I'm not saying race is why he's not signed...but race for sure plays a factor in all the 'attitude problems' rumors that you keep hearing/reading people mention but not actually prove.
You are in the left field big time. If the guy would be Caucasian, he would be perceived the same way. Just a huge hot dog, media attention lover with some ego problems like Gary Carter when he was in Montreal.

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01-24-2013, 10:44 AM
  #150
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
It seems both sides are completely mishandling the situation. On PK's side, he should just be quiet and let his agent handle the negotiations. I'm more puzzled by what MB has to gain by taking such a principled position. This is not Chicago. PK has only missed two games and it's already a media circus. Some are saying MB can't cave in and all that but if he signs PK to something like a 5yr/25M, both sides come out looking great imo. That contract would not be too long and even look like a fantastic deal when PK hits his prime. Instead, things are going to get bitter and it will be more difficult to integrate PK back with the team. What's the upside for MB here? I don't get it. I never thought I would say that but this is the kind of situation where Gainey would have taken a long walk with PK instead of this type of cold war between the two sides.

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