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Benn vs. Subban

View Poll Results: who holds more market value?
Benn 119 67.61%
Subban 32 18.18%
Even 25 14.20%
Voters: 176. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-24-2013, 10:07 AM
  #26
Blind Gardien
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I voted "even". But it depends on your team needs. Habs need their long-term #1 D, and seem to have him in hand (well, if they could just get their act together and sign him, anyway)... I wouldn't consider trading Subban for Benn as a Habs fan. It would just create a new void in the roster.

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01-24-2013, 10:47 AM
  #27
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Lets see, young PF or defenseman who is average in his own zone, takes stupid penalties and motivates his opponents? Difficult.

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01-24-2013, 11:02 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
I voted "even". But it depends on your team needs. Habs need their long-term #1 D, and seem to have him in hand (well, if they could just get their act together and sign him, anyway)... I wouldn't consider trading Subban for Benn as a Habs fan. It would just create a new void in the roster.
I'm with you in that it creates a hole. As I said in a thread on the Habs board, Bergevin's hands are tied because if he does explore the trade option, he'll basically be asking the return to be what he's offering, so who would make that trade?

Where our opinions differ is that to me, Subban shouldn't be a number one dman. He'd be a solid #2

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01-24-2013, 11:23 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Jerk Store View Post
I'm with you in that it creates a hole. As I said in a thread on the Habs board, Bergevin's hands are tied because if he does explore the trade option, he'll basically be asking the return to be what he's offering, so who would make that trade?

Where our opinions differ is that to me, Subban shouldn't be a number one dman. He'd be a solid #2
I'd consider Subban a "solid #2" on a team that has a Norris candidate already as #1. But when you actually look around the defense corps' of the NHL, there aren't more than maybe 10 or a dozen "#1" defensemen by that standard. Subban is in the top-30 in my books... but of course, it all blends together at some points. His upside at least is easily top-30, as soon as he starts shooting straight on the PP and getting more green lights to carry the puck and put up points.

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01-24-2013, 12:39 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by BruinsNeedaRussian View Post
Lets see, young PF or defenseman who is average in his own zone, takes stupid penalties and motivates his opponents? Difficult.

Are you talking about Lucic? He's a forward no?

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01-24-2013, 03:03 PM
  #31
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Are you talking about Lucic? He's a forward no?
Yes, Lucic is a forward. But, he is not in this poll, the forward I am referring to is Benn.


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Old
01-25-2013, 09:04 AM
  #32
KA BLAMO
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Accidently voted Subban. Meant to vote Benn.

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Old
01-25-2013, 09:14 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruinsNeedaRussian View Post
Lets see, young PF or defenseman who is average in his own zone, takes stupid penalties and motivates his opponents? Difficult.
Did you skip over this post?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post


Last edited by spiny norman: 01-25-2013 at 12:50 PM. Reason: not needed
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01-25-2013, 09:26 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Montreal Shadow View Post
Did you skip over this post?
It's really an op-ed. You can twist any statistics into anything really. Are you saying he's an elite defenseman? Do you think he's worth 5-5.5 per on a 5-6 year contract at the moment? Do you think he holds more value than Benn? The url of the link alone tells you what side it's gonna be on. Come on man...


Last edited by spiny norman: 01-25-2013 at 12:51 PM. Reason: qmep
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01-25-2013, 09:32 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerk Store View Post
It's really an op-ed. You can twist any statistics into anything really. Are you saying he's an elite defenseman? Do you think he's worth 5-5.5 per on a 5-6 year contract at the moment? Do you think he holds more value than Benn? The url of the link alone tells you what side it's gonna be on. Come on man...
No I don't think he's an elite defenseman. That page linked should just put to rest anybody suggesting he's poor defensively. Still, he played in every situation, faced top opponents and performed very well. That's a pretty damn good defenseman.

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01-25-2013, 09:38 AM
  #36
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No I don't think he's an elite defenseman. That page linked should just put to rest anybody suggesting he's poor defensively. Still, he played in every situation, faced top opponents and performed very well. That's a pretty damn good defenseman.
I'm in agreement with you that he's effective in his zone. But so are a number of sub 40 pts dmen in this league. I just don't see the over valuation most Habs fan seem to think he has.

Everybody agreed that Wideman got overpaid in Calgary. I see the same type of thing here. Granted PK is younger but I don't see his ceiling being much higher than that. Add the lockerroom issues that everyone seem to ignore, and I have to side with Bergevin on the rumoured contract offer.

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01-25-2013, 09:47 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Jerk Store View Post
I'm in agreement with you that he's effective in his zone. But so are a number of sub 40 pts dmen in this league. I just don't see the over valuation most Habs fan seem to think he has.

Everybody agreed that Wideman got overpaid in Calgary. I see the same type of thing here. Granted PK is younger but I don't see his ceiling being much higher than that. Add the lockerroom issues that everyone seem to ignore, and I have to side with Bergevin on the rumoured contract offer.
Except the list of dmen who put up close to 40pts while playing the top opposition really isn't long. The over valuation is because there aren't many defensemen like him around. Myers, Pietrangelo, Doughty, OEL, McDonagh and a couple of others are in the same category. That is young top-pairing dmen who contribute offensively. I also don't see why you think his ceiling isn't much higher than Dennis Wideman. He's already much better in all aspects than Wideman was at the same age and unlike Wideman, he doesn't play sheltered minutes. He's also better in his own end than current Wideman is. He's already considered better than Wideman and defensemen seldom reach their prime at 24. He's a rare commodity Montreal won't soon find if they lose him. That's why he's valued like that. All comparable players are valued just as much and already locked up with other teams.

There are no locker room issues and nobody ignores them. People keep bringing up because he got in a scrum with a teammate when the team was going through a rough sequence. There's nobody available that can replace him in the near future and not many teams like to part ways with their top pairing dmen for nothing.

I have no idea what the amounts and terms discussed are so I can't say anything on that. If he's asking for Myler's money, it's fair because both are in the same tier.

Edit: We could probably make a list of defensemen who had around the same amount of success around the same age. My guess is that it'll be short and the players on that list will have turned into elite dmen or at least very very good ones.

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01-25-2013, 10:16 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Montreal Shadow View Post
Except the list of dmen who put up close to 40pts while playing the top opposition really isn't long. The over valuation is because there aren't many defensemen like him around. Myers, Pietrangelo, Doughty, OEL, McDonagh and a couple of others are in the same category. That is young top-pairing dmen who contribute offensively. I also don't see why you think his ceiling isn't much higher than Dennis Wideman. He's already much better in all aspects than Wideman was at the same age and unlike Wideman, he doesn't play sheltered minutes. He's also better in his own end than current Wideman is. He's already considered better than Wideman and defensemen seldom reach their prime at 24. He's a rare commodity Montreal won't soon find if they lose him. That's why he's valued like that. All comparable players are valued just as much and already locked up with other teams.

There are no locker room issues and nobody ignores them. People keep bringing up because he got in a scrum with a teammate when the team was going through a rough sequence. There's nobody available that can replace him in the near future and not many teams like to part ways with their top pairing dmen for nothing.

I have no idea what the amounts and terms discussed are so I can't say anything on that. If he's asking for Myler's money, it's fair because both are in the same tier.

Edit: We could probably make a list of defensemen who had around the same amount of success around the same age. My guess is that it'll be short and the players on that list will have turned into elite dmen or at least very very good ones.
Good enough points, although I think Wideman might be a little undervalued in your opinion, but I think we're closer here than Bergeving and Subban are

As for Myers money, while I understand the comparable, I still Myers is overpaid and I don't like the term of that contract, so I have to side with Bergeving on not wanting to make that mistake. For lockerroom issues, I posted 3 links on the first page with incidents with 3 different players. That, wether fans want to believe it or not, isn't standard behaviour.

I will tell you though, you made some good points. I would still only give him 2 years to see if he can boost his offensive production, but more importantly, gain a bit of maturity. However, while I believed he was worth around 3 million, I can see a 4, maybe 4.5 salary provided he agrees on the 2 year term.

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01-25-2013, 10:27 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerk Store View Post
Good enough points, although I think Wideman might be a little undervalued in your opinion, but I think we're closer here than Bergeving and Subban are

As for Myers money, while I understand the comparable, I still Myers is overpaid and I don't like the term of that contract, so I have to side with Bergeving on not wanting to make that mistake. For lockerroom issues, I posted 3 links on the first page with incidents with 3 different players. That, wether fans want to believe it or not, isn't standard behaviour.

I will tell you though, you made some good points. I would still only give him 2 years to see if he can boost his offensive production, but more importantly, gain a bit of maturity. However, while I believed he was worth around 3 million, I can see a 4, maybe 4.5 salary provided he agrees on the 2 year term.
Wideman is a very good offensive dman but in his own end he isn't that great. I've seen him often for a couple of years while was with Boston and I've seen him regularly with the Caps as well. From both fanbases perspective, he's a fine specimen when it comes down to give an offensive boost but not reliable when it comes down to defending a lead or shutting down the opposition.

As for Myers, I agree that he is overpaid. Thing is, his agent knows that's how much he's worth on the market. Oversized defenseman who can skate like him are a rare commodity. I think we'll both agree that a precedent for Myers is Chara. That's what most people believe he can/will become.

Same goes for Subban. Looking at precedents, he knows he can cash-in big. Not many defensemen have done what he has so quickly in recent memory and if they did, most of them turned out to be pretty damn good.

Has Subban done anything warranting a huge payday? No. Are precedents enough for him to be valued that much? Yes. We look at precedents to make projections. That's why most Montreal fan value him so highly. We're scared of losing him. We'd be awfully silly if he leaves and ends up winning a Norris or something. Knowing our luck, it wouldn't surprise me that much really.

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01-25-2013, 10:53 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Montreal Shadow View Post
Wideman is a very good offensive dman but in his own end he isn't that great. I've seen him often for a couple of years while was with Boston and I've seen him regularly with the Caps as well. From both fanbases perspective, he's a fine specimen when it comes down to give an offensive boost but not reliable when it comes down to defending a lead or shutting down the opposition.

As for Myers, I agree that he is overpaid. Thing is, his agent knows that's how much he's worth on the market. Oversized defenseman who can skate like him are a rare commodity. I think we'll both agree that a precedent for Myers is Chara. That's what most people believe he can/will become.

Same goes for Subban. Looking at precedents, he knows he can cash-in big. Not many defensemen have done what he has so quickly in recent memory and if they did, most of them turned out to be pretty damn good.

Has Subban done anything warranting a huge payday? No. Are precedents enough for him to be valued that much? Yes. We look at precedents to make projections. That's why most Montreal fan value him so highly. We're scared of losing him. We'd be awfully silly if he leaves and ends up winning a Norris or something. Knowing our luck, it wouldn't surprise me that much really.
I just personally don't see that elite talent in him and again, given his antics, I don't blame Bergevin for wanting to be cautious and stick to his guns on the term. If then he proves to be worth that much to the organization, then cash in.

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01-25-2013, 11:20 AM
  #41
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Benn signed a sweetheart deal for Dallas, I'm hoping Meehan goes in there and says "we'll take the same deal" and MB does it.

As for value, I voted even although I think Benn has a bit more value due to the fact he's a #1C

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01-25-2013, 11:35 AM
  #42
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Jamie Benn

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Old
01-26-2013, 10:59 AM
  #43
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Close but Benn

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01-26-2013, 03:36 PM
  #44
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For the Canucks, I would give up more for Jamie Benn than PK Subban.

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01-27-2013, 01:01 AM
  #45
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benn

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Old
01-27-2013, 02:00 AM
  #46
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Habs fan voting Benn

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01-27-2013, 02:52 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poetryinmotion View Post
Subban doesn't have off ice issues, and what (the bold)?? I don't even think you can back that up in any way, you just made that up.

Benn will destroy Subban in a poll on the main boards but any impartial fan will tell you that their trade value is so close that any minimal advantage either has on the other can be easily overlooked.

Do people honestly think we will add anything to Subban in order to get Benn if such a trade were to go down?
I'm as impartial as it gets, value wise it's not even close, to get Benn you're going to need to Add a good piece to Subban.

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