HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Washington Capitals
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Capitals @ Lightning. 1.19.13. 7PM

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-24-2013, 11:53 AM
  #726
BTCG
Registered User
 
BTCG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,411
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Millhaus View Post
I could be wrong but I believe there are 2 organizations in the league that have made 3 finals in the last 15 seasons, the Wings and Devils.

You still feel that is a 'reasonable' expectation?
Consider: the Wings last top 10, 1st round pick..... came in 1991 (Keith Primeau).

Yet, look at the results.

Fair to compare? I'd say so.

BTCG is offline  
Old
01-24-2013, 11:59 AM
  #727
Millhaus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 5,914
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BTCG View Post
Consider: the Wings last top 10, 1st round pick..... came in 1991 (Keith Primeau).

Yet, look at the results.

Fair to compare? I'd say so.
Well in that case I have absolutely no problem stating that IMO McPhee is not in Holland's or Lamoriello's class as a GM.

Millhaus is offline  
Old
01-24-2013, 12:06 PM
  #728
BTCG
Registered User
 
BTCG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,411
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Millhaus View Post
Well in that case I have absolutely no problem stating that IMO McPhee is not in Holland's or Lamoriello's class as a GM.
I think too, since 1995, the Wings have been in the SCF 7 or 8 times.

Not too shabby. This is why I wanted to see if mark Howe could be enticed to take the Cap's GM job, as he's said by many to be the best player scout in the business, and we need someone who can assess talent.

But it'll never happen: GMGM is the Russ Thomas of the NHL.

FYI (for those unfamiliar)... Russ Thomas is the man responsible for decades of Detroit Lion football teams. Lion fans could never get rid of him.... because the team made money, and the Ford's placed that as their #1 priority.

BTCG is offline  
Old
01-24-2013, 12:22 PM
  #729
Ridley Simon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 5,244
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stewie G View Post
I could probably be described as a GMGM apologist but one thing I try to look at when evaluating any GM is not only the results, but the potential of the rosters he puts together. The guy doesn't play the games. I know talking heads are just that, but there have been several respected publications/analysts over the past several years who have picked the Caps as favorites for the Cup at the start of the season. Heck, even this season one of the guys on the NHL Network preview show picked the Caps to win it all.

Maybe he should have been better in targeting tougher "playoff" players or gone with more established coaches, but he couldn't stop Halak from turning into a wall or prevent the refs from waving off the goal in Game 7 vs. the Habs or stop Orpik from slashing Semin or having half the defensemen end up with broken feet against the Pens.

Should he have been fired already? Maybe. You could also talk me into probably, but an argument could be made for keeping him around as well.
GM also choose the coaches (who is supposed to lead the talent), and is directly involved in the locker room dynamic, as he again chooses the players and the coach.

Ultimately, the GM is the driver of the franchise. If the team succeeds, its on him. If it fails, its on him.

Too many apologists for George on this board

Ridley Simon is offline  
Old
01-24-2013, 12:23 PM
  #730
Ridley Simon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 5,244
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BTCG View Post
Ridley,

I realize you're passionate about wanting real change, and accountability. But there's no need to be sharp with the tongue (I do totally agree with you, though, and think you make great arguments via darn good writing).

The truth is, Forsberg/Wilson are not in the NHL yet, and the difference between the NHL and other leagues is like comparing college football to the NFL.

Good play in any other league is no indicator of the level that player will produce if he makes it into the NHL.

And that's the truth of it.
I get tired of people not reading. If they are sensitive to it, then thats on them. Its not like I called him an imbecile or challenged him to an internet fight.

Ridley Simon is offline  
Old
01-24-2013, 12:32 PM
  #731
Millhaus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 5,914
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BTCG View Post
I think too, since 1995, the Wings have been in the SCF 7 or 8 times.
6, 4 wins and 2 losses.

Millhaus is offline  
Old
01-24-2013, 12:36 PM
  #732
Millhaus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 5,914
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridley Simon View Post
Ultimately, the GM is the driver of the franchise.
Only if the owner lets the GM drive the franchise, which Leonsis did not do for a number of seasons in the middle of McPhee's reign and the repercussions of that extended IMO at least a couple of seasons after the last lockout.

Millhaus is offline  
Old
01-24-2013, 01:23 PM
  #733
Ridley Simon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 5,244
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Millhaus View Post
Only if the owner lets the GM drive the franchise, which Leonsis did not do for a number of seasons in the middle of McPhee's reign and the repercussions of that extended IMO at least a couple of seasons after the last lockout.
Lets look at the records of the 6 longest tenured NHL GM's, shall we?

1. Jim Rutherford, Carolina (19 years). Since 1997 (when GMGM was hired): 3 ECF's, 2 SCF's, 1 CUP

2. Lou Lamoriello, New Jersey (18 years). Since 1997: 4 SCF's, 2 Cups

3. George McPhee, Washington (15 years). Since 1997: 1 SCF

4. Darcy Regier, Buffalo (15 years). Since 1997: 4 ECF's, 1 SCF

5. Ken Holland, Detroit (15 years). Since 1997: 5 WCF's, 4 SCF's, 3 Cups

6. David Poile, Nashville (15 years). Since 1998 (1st year in league): 0 WCF's

Ok, so what does this tell you? Nashville didnt make it first playoffs til 2004.

The rest of the GM's all have minimum 3 Conference Finals. GMGM has 1. You wanted empirical proof of GM's ineptitude, and here you go. Obviously it can be even argued that the ONE ECF the Caps got too, was Poile's team (oddly enough).

So do you still think 3 Conference Finals is too much, Millhaus, for a 15 year reign?

Ridley Simon is offline  
Old
01-24-2013, 01:58 PM
  #734
Millhaus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 5,914
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridley Simon View Post
So do you still think 3 Conference Finals is too much, Millhaus, for a 15 year reign?
Not all 15 year reigns are created equally. There are many, many, many details that go into McPhee's 15 years that you choose to ignore for whatever reasons.

I see those 15 years broken up into 5 very different segments each with actual details that helped shape the results.

Millhaus is offline  
Old
01-24-2013, 02:33 PM
  #735
RandyHolt
Capitals Station
 
RandyHolt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Country: Poland
Posts: 24,651
vCash: 1300
Quote:
Obviously it can be even argued that the ONE ECF the Caps got too, was Poile's team (oddly enough).


Poor George

Ted's choice of Cassidy bought George extra years to tinker. But largely tinkering, is all he does.

I am not sure how many losses in a row it will take, if any, before he tries for a significant roster trade.

I kind of hope he goes down swinging and loots the place proper, goes down in a blaze of glory.

RandyHolt is offline  
Old
01-24-2013, 02:51 PM
  #736
Capitlols
Registered User
 
Capitlols's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 10,731
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Millhaus View Post
Ok so on average make the conference finals every 5 years then?

And does it matter if you are allowed to run the team the way you see fit with an agreed upon budget made well in advance or if the owner interferes and brings in a top player you don't want and gives him a huge contract and then when the fans don't support the team the way he would like makes a knee jerk reaction and slashes the budget putting you in an almost impossible position?
Not so much make it once every five years, but it's not unreasonable to make multiple ecf appearences when given a generational talent. Pitt complemented their stars with the right pieces, likewise for Tampa and their hampered with a budget. I think a couple ecfs could have been made with the correct and/or more aggressive moves during OV's tenure. Is that a unreasonable view?

Capitlols is offline  
Old
01-24-2013, 03:00 PM
  #737
brs03
Coo coo ca cha!
 
brs03's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Maryland
Country: United States
Posts: 12,216
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capitlols View Post
Not so much make it once every five years, but it's not unreasonable to make multiple ecf appearences when given a generational talent. Pitt complemented their stars with the right pieces, likewise for Tampa and their hampered with a budget. I think a couple ecfs could have been made with the correct and/or more aggressive moves during OV's tenure. Is that a unreasonable view?
By the same token, they were surprisingly close to the ECF in both 08-09 and 11-12 (not that they particularly deserved to be in either case, but go with it). Would a few random plays going differently in each case have suddenly validated GMGM's moves over that time?

It's reasonable to say that GMGM should have made better moves (to take advantage of Ovi's best years or whatever other context you want to put them in). It's unreasonable to say that not making the ECF is the problem. The problem is whether or not he built a team that was good enough, not whether they got far enough. I know the result is what we as fans want to see, but it's the construction (all facets of it, so coaching decisions come into play as well) that he has control over.

brs03 is offline  
Old
01-24-2013, 03:13 PM
  #738
Capitlols
Registered User
 
Capitlols's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 10,731
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by brs03 View Post
By the same token, they were surprisingly close to the ECF in both 08-09 and 11-12 (not that they particularly deserved to be in either case, but go with it). Would a few random plays going differently in each case have suddenly validated GMGM's moves over that time?

It's reasonable to say that GMGM should have made better moves (to take advantage of Ovi's best years or whatever other context you want to put them in). It's unreasonable to say that not making the ECF is the problem. The problem is whether or not he built a team that was good enough, not whether they got far enough. I know the result is what we as fans want to see, but it's the construction (all facets of it, so coaching decisions come into play as well) that he has control over.
I just disagree that the ecf is not the problem, it is. It would show progress and validate the conservative approach gmgm has held. Instead this team has taken a step back, three coaches in less than two years, still haven't built a competent D, and still believes in this core. He seems to be steadfast in being patient, not realizing failure.

Capitlols is offline  
Old
01-24-2013, 03:15 PM
  #739
BTCG
Registered User
 
BTCG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,411
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Millhaus View Post
6, 4 wins and 2 losses.
Thank you for looking it up...I always rely on memory. 6 times.... not bad.

BTCG is offline  
Old
01-24-2013, 03:18 PM
  #740
Stewie G
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,184
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by brs03 View Post
By the same token, they were surprisingly close to the ECF in both 08-09 and 11-12 (not that they particularly deserved to be in either case, but go with it). Would a few random plays going differently in each case have suddenly validated GMGM's moves over that time?

It's reasonable to say that GMGM should have made better moves (to take advantage of Ovi's best years or whatever other context you want to put them in). It's unreasonable to say that not making the ECF is the problem. The problem is whether or not he built a team that was good enough, not whether they got far enough. I know the result is what we as fans want to see, but it's the construction (all facets of it, so coaching decisions come into play as well) that he has control over.
It's like you're in my brain.

To try to put it a different way. Let's say you're putting together a meeting. You could do everything right as a planner (get a good location, line up all the right people, set up all the A/V crap, etc.) but the meeting might not be a success for whatever reason (presenter gets sick the day of/snow storm/power failure/etc.). The blame for that shouldn't fall on the meeting planner.

Stewie G is offline  
Old
01-24-2013, 03:33 PM
  #741
BTCG
Registered User
 
BTCG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,411
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stewie G View Post
It's like you're in my brain.

To try to put it a different way. Let's say you're putting together a meeting. You could do everything right as a planner (get a good location, line up all the right people, set up all the A/V crap, etc.) but the meeting might not be a success for whatever reason (presenter gets sick the day of/snow storm/power failure/etc.). The blame for that shouldn't fall on the meeting planner.
Agreed.... until we start to see that these same factors are killing the meeting most or every year.

And even if a good portion of the failure is in bad luck, I still say... at a certain point, you've gotta find a luckier planner.

BTCG is offline  
Old
01-24-2013, 03:36 PM
  #742
usiel
HFBoards Sponsor
 
usiel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Malaz City
Country: San Marino
Posts: 10,006
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to usiel
Jeez the game was so two days ago.

__________________
True Story™®©
usiel is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:42 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.