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P.K. Subban Thread - Edition 6.0 - #BlameSubban

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:03 PM
  #326
shutehinside
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
I wasn't comparing the players.

Just pointing out how dumb it is to bring up Subban's 11-12 salary as a measuring stick of what he should get. Or how much X$ is a raise over last yer. It has ZERO relevance in the negotiations.

Does the fact that Gomez started out at 10 mil/year with the Rangers have any bearing on what he is worth now or next summer as a UFA?
Rick DiPietro says hi!

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:04 PM
  #327
ECWHSWI
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
Seems like we're getting like a page of posts per minute or something now, the Subban Saga is hitting a fever pitch!

It would be kind of nice if this was all connected to like a big alarm in Bergevin's office, maybe a big LED thermometer display or something, graphically showing that Habdom is going bonkers on this. Red alert. Red Alert. Sign Subban. Or the internet will explode.
meh, I dont remember many screaming PK PK last game

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:04 PM
  #328
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Originally Posted by elsubz View Post
Not comparable at all. Price had lost his no.1 spot to Halak when he signed that contract and Pacioretty had proven absolutely nothing in the NHL. Subban has been our most used dman for the past 2 seasons playing 24+mins every night logging 1st PK and PP minutes.
Yep, he was. But you can't ignore the fact that it was because there was no other choice. He played all those big minutes and played well, but the team did finish dead last in the East. Not that that was entirely his fault of course, but you have to take that into consideration. Also he could use a lot of refinement on his PP quarterbacking abilities. Markov pretty much put that ink to paper the other night.

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:04 PM
  #329
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
So he's a 3.25 million dollar man?



One of us is wrong here. (Hint: its you.)
if he ever sign for less than 3.5 per for two years, i'll be glad to accept your apologies....

your in title to your opinion, but until it's done i would not call anyone right or wrong....

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:05 PM
  #330
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Originally Posted by CastroLeRobot View Post
This is the real issue with Subbans reputation imo.

I mean, there are so many a**holes in the league, why one flamboyant, assertive, take no **** guy is labeled as a "problem in the lockeroom" is really no mystery at all when you take ethnicity in perspective.

The same can be said about European players in perceived "laziness", or "softness"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWtQGKMJF5I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvUhd-gYnuA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUbScz871dw

Spin it how you want, he practices hard, only picked up because its MTL but this happens everywhere, all the other players except PK are ******** etc... this type of behavious isn't par for the course with NHL players. Makes for a bad teammate and I don't blame Bergevin for wanting to pay him what he's worth now on a 2 year contract in hopes that 1) He becomes a better player and 2) he changes his attitude.

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:05 PM
  #331
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Why does every player have to fit this cookie cutter mould / boring cliché of how a hockey player should act?

Yes, PK has swagger. Yes, he's very confident in himself. Yes, he's flashy.

The Habs desperately need some flair, and I'm getting this sick feeling that Bergevin and Therrien want to neuter him, just like the Randys did last season. Also, I hate to say it, but people are being very naive if they don't think race has something to do with the way people are lashing out at PK for holding out.

And why should he sign a bridge contract? Price hadn't established himself as a clear #1 on the team when he signed his bridge contract. Pacioretty hadn't established himself as a top-line player when he signed his bridge contract. Like it or not, PK has established himself as very good D-man. Nobody is arguing that he deserves elite D-man money. But to lowball him with a 2-3m/year 2-year bridge contract is completely unreasonable, and I fully support PK in this current impasse with Bergevin.

Quite frankly, I'm unimpressed with Bergevin so far. He strikes me as someone with a very old school hockey mentality, hooking up all his buddies with jobs with blatant nepotism, hiring a retread coach who embraces old school traditional coaching and wants to ''correct'' PK on and off the ice, and ignoring the latest innovative trends that other GMs like Chiarelli and Gillis or coaches like Tippett are embracing. It's early, but I don't like what I'm seeing so far.

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:06 PM
  #332
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Originally Posted by Ollie Williams View Post
I always saw the bridge contract as a necessity for the team, but only when it came to players that have a little more to prove. To me, nearly every player falls into this category except for the ones that greatly exceed expectations or the really high draft picks that meet what is expected of them before the "bridge contract" time comes. Pacioretty would be part of the large group of players that needed to prove more. Price, in my opinion, would have been one of the players exempt from the bridge contract had he performed to the expected level before that. I don't think Subban should be exempt from this treatment. Yes he's a great defenseman but I also think he can be better and has a lot more to show.
That's pretty much it.

In addition, if I were GM there's more than just company protocol to why I want to give Subban a bridge contract. Subban is a good player but has a chance to be great. I don't want to make him too comfortable and make him forget that he's gotta improve.

It's not to say subban doesn't have the work ethic or whatever, he does. It's just obvious Subban beats to his own drum and that's fine. I just think you're more likely to listen to other people's criticisms when your contract is up. If you're secure, you'll play the way you want to play and in the case of subban, never end up elite.

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:06 PM
  #333
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*sigh* Tired. Both parties just sign already...

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:07 PM
  #334
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Just having a discussion and all of this started because someone suggested that it has nothing to do with how he's perceived.

I whole heartedly disagree with that and I think it's important to not ignore this because there's a culture in the hockey community that's still very much out of touch. I think it would be great if the sport of hockey actually stepped into today's world, especially with the sport of hockey becoming a more diverse sport. This issue is much deeper than just PK Subban.
Well, that may be the case, but that's another can of worms altogether. I think the reasons for the impasse are all 100% hockey related.

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:07 PM
  #335
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Originally Posted by NRG87 View Post
Why does every player have to fit this cookie cutter mould / boring cliché of how a hockey player should act?

Yes, PK has swagger. Yes, he's very confident in himself. Yes, he's flashy.

The Habs desperately need some flair, and I'm getting this sick feeling that Bergevin and Therrien want to neuter him, just like the Randys did last season. Also, I hate to say it, but people are being very naive if they don't think race has something to do with the way people are lashing out at PK for holding out.

And why should he sign a bridge contract? Price hadn't established himself as a clear #1 on the team when he signed his bridge contract. Pacioretty hadn't established himself as a top-line player when he signed his bridge contract. Like it or not, PK has established himself as very good D-man. Nobody is arguing that he deserves elite D-man money. But to lowball him with a 2-3m/year 2-year bridge contract is completely unreasonable, and I fully support PK in this current impasse with Bergevin.

Quite frankly, I'm unimpressed with Bergevin so far. He strikes me as someone with a very old school hockey mentality, hooking up all his buddies with jobs with blatant nepotism, hiring a retread coach who embraces old school traditional coaching and wants to ''correct'' PK on and off the ice, and ignoring the latest innovative trends that other GMs like Chiarelli and Gillis or coaches like Tippett are embracing. It's early, but I don't like what I'm seeing so far.
You said it, it's early.....

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:07 PM
  #336
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Originally Posted by Ollie Williams View Post
I always saw the bridge contract as a necessity for the team, but only when it came to players that have a little more to prove. To me, nearly every player falls into this category except for the ones that greatly exceed expectations or the really high draft picks that meet what is expected of them before the "bridge contract" time comes. Pacioretty would be part of the large group of players that needed to prove more. Price, in my opinion, would have been one of the players exempt from the bridge contract had he performed to the expected level before that. I don't think Subban should be exempt from this treatment. Yes he's a great defenseman but I also think he can be better and has a lot more to show.
I find the "bridge" contract more a hinderance than a help for the team unless Subban falls on his face the next 2 years or his agent was looking for 6 years at 42 mil.

Instead of signing Subban at 2 years 8 mil...better to sign him for 6 years at 27-28 mil and not have to sign him in 2 years for 4 years and 26-30 mil. Good cap mangement.

Comparing Subban to Pacioretty and Price isn't right because the year before they signed their "bridge" they had career sebacks. Price was relegated to #2 and Pacioretty started the year AHL.

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:09 PM
  #337
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by Poulet Kostopoulos View Post
Patrick Roy? That's debatable.
Patrick Roy being flashy and arrogant? Not much of a debate there man. He's the most arrogant player I can think of.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poulet Kostopoulos View Post
Besides, it's a matter of degree and context.
Really? Please explain.

Patrick Roy was cocky as hell. He was still worth holding onto wasn't he? PK is the best young blueliner we've had since Chelios and he hasn't displayed anywhere near the arrogance that Roy did.

Seriously man, why do we care about arrogance? It's what the guy does on the ice that matters. That's why I loved Roy. Guy Lafleur is my favourite player of all time but all he did was smoke, party and drink. He got it done on the ice though and that's all that matters.

I don't care if he's not a saint. I care if he helps win us games. Trading him away would probably be disastrous for us. Haven't we learned our lesson yet? Roy, Chelios, Carbonneau... all guys who get dealt for character issues and all of them went on to win cups somehwere else. Why couldn't we put up with them whereas other teams could?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
I do not know if Subban is asking for the moon nor do I know if Bergevin is low balling him. I do know however that Meehan/Subban (with the final word belonging to Subban) are acting as if the concept of a RFA with no rights to arbitration has been removed from the new CBA.
How so?

Maybe the club is offering him 3 mil a year. Nowhere in the CBA does it say that you have to accept a lowball offer. You don't know what's going on here any more than I do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
I really hope Subban is not asking for a lot more than what Price received in the same context; he deserves more but definitely not “a lot more”. I also know that a lot of pro athletes (Pacioretty, Hossa, Brodeur, Jackman...) left money on the table in an effort to help build and play for a contender. Reading the Stubbs interview felt like watching an add commercial so I don’t expect Subban to follow their footsteps.

Again, if Subban inks a one year deal worth 3M$, we will know that Bergevin was low balling him but if he signs a one year deal worth 5M$, we will know that he was asking for the moon. Anything in between and it was only a matter of length.
I don't think 5 mil is the moon. I think 6 mil is the moon but not five.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
2 years at 4M$ per season.
Or one year at 4,5M$.
Game on.

PS if the Canadiens give a blank check to Subban, what will happen with Galchenyuk, Beaulieu... when they reach the same stage? Subban is no Crosby so I don’t think Mtl should completely overlook the fact that he is a freakin RFA player with no rights to arbitration... that’s how the CBA works when your name is not Malkin.
You're right, we have to be conscious of this. 4.5 might do the trick... (4 mil probably won't) we can all hope so. It's a bit of a hometown discount but it really sounds like PK wants a longer term.

The real wildcard is Meehan. That guy is horrible and it wouldn't surprise me in the least if he's the problem here.

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:09 PM
  #338
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Well, that may be the case, but that's another can of worms altogether. I think the reasons for the impasse are all 100% hockey related.
I never said otherwise and have said the exact same many times...

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:10 PM
  #339
uiCk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollie Williams View Post
I always saw the bridge contract as a necessity for the team, but only when it came to players that have a little more to prove. To me, nearly every player falls into this category except for the ones that greatly exceed expectations or the really high draft picks that meet what is expected of them before the "bridge contract" time comes. Pacioretty would be part of the large group of players that needed to prove more. Price, in my opinion, would have been one of the players exempt from the bridge contract had he performed to the expected level before that. I don't think Subban should be exempt from this treatment. Yes he's a great defenseman but I also think he can be better and has a lot more to show.
I guess the difference relies on what you think PK has brought to this team. My opinion is that he has brought more to this team then anyone except price.

Also, if you think PK is a great defenseman and has alot more to show, then it should be even clearer that bridge contract is not needed in his case.

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:12 PM
  #340
ECWHSWI
5M? insulting!!!
 
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Originally Posted by NRG87 View Post
Why does every player have to fit this cookie cutter mould / boring cliché of how a hockey player should act?

Yes, PK has swagger. Yes, he's very confident in himself. Yes, he's flashy.

The Habs desperately need some flair, and I'm getting this sick feeling that Bergevin and Therrien want to neuter him, just like the Randys did last season. Also, I hate to say it, but people are being very naive if they don't think race has something to do with the way people are lashing out at PK for holding out.

And why should he sign a bridge contract? Price hadn't established himself as a clear #1 on the team when he signed his bridge contract. Pacioretty hadn't established himself as a top-line player when he signed his bridge contract. Like it or not, PK has established himself as very good D-man. Nobody is arguing that he deserves elite D-man money. But to lowball him with a 2-3m/year 2-year bridge contract is completely unreasonable, and I fully support PK in this current impasse with Bergevin.

Quite frankly, I'm unimpressed with Bergevin so far. He strikes me as someone with a very old school hockey mentality, hooking up all his buddies with jobs with blatant nepotism, hiring a retread coach who embraces old school traditional coaching and wants to ''correct'' PK on and off the ice, and ignoring the latest innovative trends that other GMs like Chiarelli and Gillis or coaches like Tippett are embracing. It's early, but I don't like what I'm seeing so far.
and that's the main reason why people side with him in this.

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01-24-2013, 12:12 PM
  #341
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by HABsurde View Post
if he ever sign for less than 3.5 per for two years, i'll be glad to accept your apologies....

your in title to your opinion, but until it's done i would not call anyone right or wrong....
Okay. I promise you this, if he signs for less than 3.5 per for two years, I'll be happy to apologize to you.

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:13 PM
  #342
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Patrick Roy also led Montreal to two Stanley Cups before being traded.

Not the same at all. Has nothing to do with arrogance.

People are just confusing PK's great personality and popularity with the fans with actual on-ice performance.

Yes he's a thoroughbred with a boatload of talent, but he hasn't quite put it all together and refined it just yet. That's all.

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:14 PM
  #343
Et le But
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
and that's the main reason why people side with him in this.
And this is why there's no point in arguing with you about this.

We've given you facts on why Subban is an above average defenseman, and you respond with ridiculous strawmen like this.

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:14 PM
  #344
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Okay. I promise you this, if he signs for less than 3.5 per for two years, I'll be happy to apologize to you.
Honestly, i don't care about the amount, it's not my money... let's just hope he signs

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:14 PM
  #345
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Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
Patrick Roy also led Montreal to two Stanley Cups before being traded.

Not the same at all. Has nothing to do with arrogance.
You're coming into the middle of a conversation with no context. Nobody is suggesting PK is as good as Patrick Roy.

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:15 PM
  #346
ECWHSWI
5M? insulting!!!
 
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
And this is why there's no point in arguing with you about this.

We've given you facts on why Subban is an above average defenseman, and you respond with ridiculous strawmen like this.
and you know what ? not once I disagreed with this.

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01-24-2013, 12:15 PM
  #347
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
You're coming into the middle of a conversation with no context. Nobody is suggesting PK is as good as Patrick Roy.
Well then don't compare them.

The point is PK still has quite a bit to improve on. A rookie goalie who wins the cup and then wins it again 6 years later after a final appearance in the middle doesn't.

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:16 PM
  #348
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Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
The leverage PK has is that he might not be with the team in the foreseeable future. if team doesn't care about that aspect, then he should be traded. Since that doesn't seem to be what the habs want to do, it's pretty obvious PK does have leverage.
Thats why he has little to none leverage. Only thing he got is that he can ask for a trade. At that point, i don't want him anywere close to this team.

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:16 PM
  #349
Et le But
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
and you know what ? not once I disagreed with this.
Then why shouldn't he get paid like one? And this is besides the fact that he still has potential to get better.

It has nothing to do with how flashy he is.

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01-24-2013, 12:18 PM
  #350
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Originally Posted by Montreal Impact FC View Post
Subban for Schultz and 2nd rounder?
I would actually do, Subban for Benn with Dallas

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