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P.K. Subban Thread - Edition 6.0 - #BlameSubban

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:18 PM
  #351
Slew Foots
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
and that's the main reason why people side with him in this.
No, I'm siding with PK because he's proven to me that he's capable of being an everyday top-pair d-man.

He's not without his faults. Like many young players, he takes some bad decisions in his own zone. He needs to improve his decision-making. I find he overrates his offensive ability, leading him to sometimes try overly ambitious rushes. He's a great skater, but his hands aren't elite. He's also not a very good PP QB yet.

But he's capable of producing offence. He thrives in high pressure situations, which is essential in a market like Montreal. He can play huge minutes. And people forget how good he is at shutting down the opposing team's best players. He's capable of executing such assignments as good as the best d-men in the league.

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:18 PM
  #352
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Canadian astronaut Chris Hadfield just posted a picture to twitter taken from the ISS


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Old
01-24-2013, 12:19 PM
  #353
ECWHSWI
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Then why shouldn't he get paid like one? And this is besides the fact that he still has potential to get better.
like an above average D ? no problem with that, considering he's a RFA I dont think above average would get him 4 or 5 per...

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:19 PM
  #354
uiCk
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Thats why he has little to none leverage. Only thing he got is that he can ask for a trade. At that point, i don't want him anywere close to this team.
how is the possibility of losing one of, if not your best defense, "little to none leverage" ?

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:19 PM
  #355
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Originally Posted by Charkey View Post
I would actually do, Subban for Benn with Dallas
What does your Habs D corps look like in 2014-15?

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:22 PM
  #356
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And what if all your peers took that 15k salary when starting out before getting that 40k salary? Is it really that insulting? Seniority is more the issue, he's good but he hasn't been around for years to get the big bucks yet.
"... No one wants to be in this position. Of course you always try to get the best contract but a guy in his position does not have a lot of leverage so he needs to say yes to a transition contract. Then you aim for higher and better terms; that’s the path 95% of the players followed...” – Josh Gorges

Labbé interviewed Gorges in English, translated it in French... and I translated it back in English! The nuances are probably lost in the process but the bulk of Gorges’ opinion is respected.

Ref.: http://www.lapresse.ca/sports/hockey...ans-subban.php


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post

(...)

Maybe the club is offering him 3 mil a year. Nowhere in the CBA does it say that you have to accept a lowball offer. You don't know what's going on here any more than I do.

(...)
I agree and just to be clear: IF they are offering him 3M$ per season, I would be seriously annoyed!

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:27 PM
  #357
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Where you you feel you fit in in terms of $$/years

As per cap geek:

Markov, Andrei » $5,750,000 x2

Kaberle, Tomas » $4,250,000 x2

Gorges, Josh » $3,900,000 x6

Emelin, Alexei » $2,000,000 x 2 (ELC)


As Hab fans, we can all agree PK brings more all around than Emelin so he should make more than him. IMHO, PK should be of greater value than Josh Gorges because he can give you as much defensively if put in that position plus deliver offense. PK has shown ability in penalty killing, power play and 5 on 5 at both ends. Gorges has an edge in heart, leadership and character though.
We can all agree he is all around better than Kaberle, no question so really that leaves Markov, who at his best is better than what we have seen from PK so far. In PK we have Markovs' eventual replacement. We should be paying him accordingly, if Markov goes down (hopefully not) is Kaberle capable of replacing him? NO. PK has already shown he can. 5 - 6 per for 2 years is fair.

Comparing Max or Carey's bridge contracts is not really applicable in the sense that PK is proven, not coming off an injury etc..

The only glitch is the possible Cap space problem this and next season. I think we have just over 6m available this season but only 11m available next season with only 16 signed. If PK gets even just 5m that will leave around 6m for 7 guys? I guess we could send Kaberle away next year though.

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:29 PM
  #358
Kenny Powders
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Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
how is the possibility of losing one of, if not your best defense, "little to none leverage" ?
If we trade him were getting something in return btw. It's sad if we lose him that way but whatever.

Habs can say that he doesnt play at all this year too cuz they dont want to meet his demand and he's gonna lose any option he got. He's not a UFA. Thats why he cant play hardball too much.

You can't argue with me that Price isnt the franchise player of this team, we'll he got paid on a bridge contract and now he's getting the big money. Once Subban gets that, we have a deal.

He hasnt broke ant record, no cup, no trophy, no calder. Even if he play 25 minutes per game and racks up 40 pts, he doesnt derserve the 5-6 mil contract yet.

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:29 PM
  #359
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I know you didn't... I did... and not afraid to use it. Ignorance and fear are pretty much always at the source of racism.
Thank you. People are so scared to call it out for what it is.

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:31 PM
  #360
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habfan1968 View Post
As per cap geek:

Markov, Andrei » $5,750,000 x2

Kaberle, Tomas » $4,250,000 x2

Gorges, Josh » $3,900,000 x6

Emelin, Alexei » $2,000,000 x 2 (ELC)


As Hab fans, we can all agree PK brings more all around than Emelin so he should make more than him. IMHO, PK should be of greater value than Josh Gorges because he can give you as much defensively if put in that position plus deliver offense. PK has shown ability in penalty killing, power play and 5 on 5 at both ends. Gorges has an edge in heart, leadership and character though.
We can all agree he is all around better than Kaberle, no question so really that leaves Markov, who at his best is better than what we have seen from PK so far. In PK we have Markovs' eventual replacement. We should be paying him accordingly, if Markov goes down (hopefully not) is Kaberle capable of replacing him? NO. PK has already shown he can. 5 - 6 per for 2 years is fair.

Comparing Max or Carey's bridge contracts is not really applicable in the sense that PK is proven, not coming off an injury etc..

The only glitch is the possible Cap space problem this and next season. I think we have just over 6m available this season but only 11m available next season with only 16 signed. If PK gets even just 5m that will leave around 6m for 7 guys? I guess we could send Kaberle away next year though.
¸
I don't think you cans ay Gorges as the ''edge'' in heart and charachter. Those are the main attribute that made Subban who he his today.

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:32 PM
  #361
ECWHSWI
5M? insulting!!!
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habfan1968 View Post
As per cap geek:

Markov, Andrei » $5,750,000 x2

Kaberle, Tomas » $4,250,000 x2

Gorges, Josh » $3,900,000 x6

Emelin, Alexei » $2,000,000 x 2 (ELC)


As Hab fans, we can all agree PK brings more all around than Emelin so he should make more than him. IMHO, PK should be of greater value than Josh Gorges because he can give you as much defensively if put in that position plus deliver offense. PK has shown ability in penalty killing, power play and 5 on 5 at both ends. Gorges has an edge in heart, leadership and character though.
We can all agree he is all around better than Kaberle, no question so really that leaves Markov, who at his best is better than what we have seen from PK so far. In PK we have Markovs' eventual replacement. We should be paying him accordingly, if Markov goes down (hopefully not) is Kaberle capable of replacing him? NO. PK has already shown he can. 5 - 6 per for 2 years is fair.

Comparing Max or Carey's bridge contracts is not really applicable in the sense that PK is proven, not coming off an injury etc..

The only glitch is the possible Cap space problem this and next season. I think we have just over 6m available this season but only 11m available next season with only 16 signed. If PK gets even just 5m that will leave around 6m for 7 guys? I guess we could send Kaberle away next year though.
listed UFA D...

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:32 PM
  #362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Powders View Post
If we trade him were getting something in return btw. It's sad if we lose him that way but whatever.

Habs can say that he doesnt play at all this year too cuz they dont want to meet his demand and he's gonna lose any option he got. He's not a UFA. Thats why he cant play hardball too much.

You can't argue with me that Price isnt the franchise player of this team, we'll he got paid on a bridge contract and now he's getting the big money. Once Subban gets that, we have a deal.

He hasnt broke ant record, no cup, no trophy, no calder. Even if he play 25 minutes per game and racks up 40 pts, he doesnt derserve the 5-6 mil contract yet.
Price wasn't the franchise player when he got his bridge contract. He was freshly anointed number 1 after Halak was traded. Not comparable situations.

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:33 PM
  #363
Ollie Williams
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Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
I guess the difference relies on what you think PK has brought to this team. My opinion is that he has brought more to this team then anyone except price.

Also, if you think PK is a great defenseman and has alot more to show, then it should be even clearer that bridge contract is not needed in his case.
Well, for this point, I submit the following scenario:

Suppose PK signs a 2 year "bridge" contract. During those 2 seasons he exceeds expectations and performs better (which I believe he can) than the way he performed to date. Would the dollar amount of his following contract be greater than what he is rumored to be seeking today?

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:33 PM
  #364
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give him 5M$ and thats it! if he want more....trade that punk to the flyers

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:33 PM
  #365
ECWHSWI
5M? insulting!!!
 
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Originally Posted by NRG87 View Post
No, I'm siding with PK because he's proven to me that he's capable of being an everyday top-pair d-man.

He's not without his faults. Like many young players, he takes some bad decisions in his own zone. He needs to improve his decision-making. I find he overrates his offensive ability, leading him to sometimes try overly ambitious rushes. He's a great skater, but his hands aren't elite. He's also not a very good PP QB yet.

But he's capable of producing offence. He thrives in high pressure situations, which is essential in a market like Montreal. He can play huge minutes. And people forget how good he is at shutting down the opposing team's best players. He's capable of executing such assignments as good as the best d-men in the league.
woah! you found a lot of flaws for a guy you'd be ok paying top dollars.

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:34 PM
  #366
Kenny Powders
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Price wasn't the franchise player when he got his bridge contract. He was freshly anointed number 1 after Halak was traded. Not comparable situations.
He was still considered the future franchise player. Like what Subban is right now. He's not there yet, just like Price was at that time.

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:35 PM
  #367
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Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
Well then don't compare them.
Go read the quotes before commenting. You don't know what you're talking about here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
The point is PK still has quite a bit to improve on. A rookie goalie who wins the cup and then wins it again 6 years later after a final appearance in the middle doesn't.
Nobody said otherwise. Again, you don't know what you're talking about.

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01-24-2013, 12:35 PM
  #368
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I'm not taking sides but does some on if he is popular in the dressing room or a cancer?Guy Lafleur was a very good teamate if you worked hard on the ice other players like Pierre Larouche were not liked because of their work ethics in pratice in my day.

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:37 PM
  #369
Dr Gonzo
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Originally Posted by Kenny Powders View Post
He was still considered the future franchise player. Like what Subban is right now. He's not there yet, just like Price was at that time.
Subban's on ice Goal Differential was 2nd best in the league among top pairing d-men. His TOI, +-, corsi, defensive zone starts and all the other statistics prove that he is in fact "there".

More info, check here:

http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/20...real-canadiens

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:37 PM
  #370
uiCk
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Originally Posted by Ollie Williams View Post
Well, for this point, I submit the following scenario:

Suppose PK signs a 2 year "bridge" contract. During those 2 seasons he greatly exceeds expectations. Would the dollar amount of his following contract be greater than what he is rumored to be seeking today?
defiantly. even if he doesn't exceed expectations, he's a 5mil+ D

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:38 PM
  #371
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Originally Posted by Kenny Powders View Post
If we trade him were getting something in return btw. It's sad if we lose him that way but whatever.

Habs can say that he doesnt play at all this year too cuz they dont want to meet his demand and he's gonna lose any option he got. He's not a UFA. Thats why he cant play hardball too much.

You can't argue with me that Price isnt the franchise player of this team, we'll he got paid on a bridge contract and now he's getting the big money. Once Subban gets that, we have a deal.

He hasnt broke ant record, no cup, no trophy, no calder. Even if he play 25 minutes per game and racks up 40 pts, he doesnt derserve the 5-6 mil contract yet.

wrong... he can go play in Europe all he wants. He can't go play for another NHL team, yes, but he can go get paid well over 4M$/year playing in the KHL (tax-free and for less actual work)to continue playing/developing.

Habs, meanwhile, can't replace him at all, this year or in the foreseable future, for anything less than 6-7M$ (good luck finding a comparable player on the UFA market for less than that).

The only leverage Habs have, is Subban's desire to play in the NHL. It may end up being enough (we can hope), but even in that case, if Subban feels like he's getting a raw deal, good luck getting him extended long-term later on.

if 5-7 years at 5-5.5M$ would get it done, risking all the other potential scenarios is a serious lack of judgement on Bergevin's part

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:39 PM
  #372
Slew Foots
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
woah! you found a lot of flaws for a guy you'd be ok paying top dollars.
He's not perfect. And when did I ever say he should be paid top dollars? I said he should be paid fairly...2.5m-3m/year on a 2-year contract is nowhere near fair.

Either you're not the sharpest tool in the shed, or you're deliberately being dishonest and/or unfair in this discussion.

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:40 PM
  #373
Ollie Williams
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Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
defiantly. even if he doesn't exceed expectations, he's a 5mil+ D
Wouldn't it, therefore, be to his advantage to sign the bridge contract? ("his" being Subban of course)


Last edited by Ollie Williams: 01-24-2013 at 12:47 PM.
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Old
01-24-2013, 12:41 PM
  #374
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wrong... he can go play in Europe all he wants. He can't go play for another NHL team, yes, but he can go get paid well over 4M$/year playing in the KHL (tax-free and for less actual work)to continue playing/developing.
I'm only speculating but PK doesn't come across as the type of guy who wants to play in Russia......

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:42 PM
  #375
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Go read the quotes before commenting. You don't know what you're talking about here.

Nobody said otherwise. Again, you don't know what you're talking about.
I read all the posts. Including this one.

"Patrick Roy was egocentric, flashy and cocky. Are you happy we got rid of him? And look at the return we got on him... this club can't afford another mistake of that magnitude."

Sounds pretty close to a comparison to me. Or at least a parallel. I know you didn't mean to compare their on-ice performances but I really don't think my reply was out to lunch based on what was said.

Anyway, not looking to start a fight. I'm in the same boat, last thing I'd want to see is PK traded.

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