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The Kreider Thread (1/22: Kreider fine, skating at practice)

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Old
01-24-2013, 12:37 PM
  #326
BroadwayBlues
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If they are planning to send him down after 3 games, they're not showing a lot of patience.
I guess that's what happens when you're championship caliber team. Two years ago, Kreider would have all the time in world to work things out.

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01-24-2013, 12:38 PM
  #327
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I think Kreider can learn a lot from Nash and sending him down will interfere with that.
Meh, Kreider is a very different player than Nash. I don't see it.

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01-24-2013, 12:50 PM
  #328
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If they are planning to send him down after 3 games, they're not showing a lot of patience.
I guess that's what happens when you're championship caliber team. Two years ago, Kreider would have all the time in world to work things out.
Its not "Oh, he hasnt looked good"

Its that hes looked bad.

Look what the Islanders have done to prospects by keeping them up while they clearly struggled. And thats a team with no pressure to perform whatsoever.

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01-24-2013, 12:54 PM
  #329
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Sending him down, and scratching him for a game so he can watch from a different perspective are two different things.

They may do both, I'm not saying that won't happen but when/if it does it'll be because the org wants to bring him along at the right pace.

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01-24-2013, 12:59 PM
  #330
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are the really scratching Kreider to play Rupp at 3rd line C and have Newbury and Bickel on the 4th line?

Send the poor kid down then to play. This is going to be a revolving door for the 12th F spot.....we have already seen Segal, Newbury, Bickel and I imagine Ferriero comes up if Kreider is going down.

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01-24-2013, 01:06 PM
  #331
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Originally Posted by Vitto79 View Post
are the really scratching Kreider to play Rupp at 3rd line C and have Newbury and Bickel on the 4th line?

Send the poor kid down then to play. This is going to be a revolving door for the 12th F spot.....we have already seen Segal, Newbury, Bickel and I imagine Ferriero comes up if Kreider is going down.
Rupp won't be playing center, but yeah he'll likely play 3rd line.

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01-24-2013, 01:17 PM
  #332
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To those ho hope for Kolarik to recalled, ain't gonna happen.

Steve Zipay ‏@stevezipay
All the NYR morning news from Philly: Chris Kreider, Asham scratched; Lundqvist, Newbury in, Kolarik traded, more http://*******/W2Y6xQ

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01-24-2013, 01:24 PM
  #333
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To those ho hope for Kolarik to recalled, ain't gonna happen.

Steve Zipay ‏@stevezipay
All the NYR morning news from Philly: Chris Kreider, Asham scratched; Lundqvist, Newbury in, Kolarik traded, more http://*******/W2Y6xQ
Never mind haha

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01-24-2013, 01:48 PM
  #334
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Originally Posted by BroadwayBlues View Post
If they are planning to send him down after 3 games, they're not showing a lot of patience.

The only reason he was called up is that myth spread that he's a better player at the NHL level than at the lower levels. It was a myth. He was merely a guy who could have good stretches, but could never keep it up. That's why he could do well in tournaments, but never in the regular season.

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01-24-2013, 01:57 PM
  #335
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The only reason he was called up is that myth spread that he's a better player at the NHL level than at the lower levels. It was a myth. He was merely a guy who could have good stretches, but could never keep it up. That's why he could do well in tournaments, but never in the regular season.
So our organization is making decisions based on myths? Yeah, I buy that.

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01-24-2013, 01:58 PM
  #336
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So our organization is making decisions based on myths? Yeah, I buy that.
Newbury's only up because of the Sasquatch.

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01-24-2013, 02:15 PM
  #337
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He hasn't been great. But he hasn't been as bad as his detractors proclaim, either. He obviously needs time to develop. Be it at the NHL level or the AHL the organization needs to decide. What's also obvious is he has a ton of potential. He's 21. He will be fine once he has the confidence at this level to realize he can play at this level.

They also shouldn't be ramming a role down his throat that he doesn't fit. He's at his best when he's on the attack. When he was being coached a little less, and being allowed to just play a little more, he was fine. Rangers systems are a bit complicated. For a kid like him to try to develop his game and learn the system, and be flawless, is too much to ask. His performance is equally as much the coaching staff's fault as it is his own. Pull back a little and let his skill come out.

He made a couple of good defensive plays last night. He broke up a sure scoring chance coming back. He needs to be allowed to attack without feeling like if he makes one mistake he's out for the rest of the night.

The kid is playing like he has to be flawless. He's afraid to make a mistake. Because it means less playing time. Kreider, Bickel, Eminger...for some reason, the accountability only applies to guys playing to retain their spot. Meanwhile other guys can't do anything wrong in Torts' eyes. There are some guys here that have been awful this season, and haven't had to answer for it at all. Be it for political reasons or what ever. I've been in situations like that before as a player. Having to be flawless while learning a system. It's not easy.

Richards has been disgusting by his standards so far this season, the stat sheet doesn't tell the story. His play has been awful. Bad decisions with the puck. No accountability, however. Boyle has been invisible. No accountability. Staal was a -3 to start the season. Bickel was even. The next night, in a game where the Rangers allowed 6 goals, Bickel was a -1 with 3 blocked shots in 14+ minutes. One mistake and he's benched.

Double standard.

It's the perfect time for one of the veteran players to step up as a leader and take the kid under their wing. Nash, looking at you. Richards did it for Del Zotto last year. Weekes did it for Lundqvist. Stepan was allowed to play with Gaborik for a huge portion of the season last year. Dubinksy rode shotgun with Jagr, Dubinksy hadn't scored a goal in his initial call up. The equivalent would be putting Kreider with Nash or Gaborik and letting him ride shotgun.

Hartford is a disaster. That isn't exactly the right environment for your top prospect, either.

They need to add more skill over there. The organization should have looked into bringing Fast and Lindberg over. They will have to play AHL hockey at some point, anyway. They aren't both jumping straight into the NHL next season. Hrivik being concussed doesn't help matters. The AHL is a black hole for talent. Miller, Jean, Hrivik are the only forwards who look like they have a future in the NHL. There needs to be more talent down there.

There's a misconception that because you have more talent means you should be the leader. Kreider won't be going back to Hartford and suddenly lead the team to the Calder Cup. He still needs a TEAM around him. The opposition put their top pair against him, he was one of the focuses of the opposition. Rangers brass themselves mentioned this.

Or, maybe he goes back with his recent experience and it helps the team in Hartford. Who knows, but it's not exactly doing wonders for McIlrath or Miller right now, down there.

It's not an easy decision to make.

But assuredly, the easiest way to "ruin" a player, is to try to make him something he is not, and not allowing him to play to his strengths.

I still have enough confidence in this coaching staff to get the most out of him eventually.

Last night the Rangers were beating the Bruins by stretching their team out. Getting the puck back behind defenders, going on the attack. Before the Bruins were handed five thousand power plays. That attack is where Kreider typically finds success. On the rush, or in front of the net. Boyle, Pyatt, and Callahan are not the right linemates for that kind of attack. Stepan, Richards, Gaborik, and Nash are. It's finding that chemistry that helps certain players. Someone who can get him the puck. Not just dump and chase.

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01-24-2013, 02:17 PM
  #338
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And him being scratched isn't an indictment on him either.

The coaching staff most likely wants him to watch and learn.

Last night when Kreider got back to the bench after the penalty, Tortorella didn't ignore him or rip into him, he was clearly explaining the game situation to him, gave him pats on the back.

Its a process, and the season is only 3 games old.

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01-24-2013, 02:34 PM
  #339
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We're playing a scrub like Rupp on the 3rd line? He's barely a 4th liner. Is Kreider really worse than Rupp? This is the personnel of a championship caliber team?

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01-24-2013, 02:36 PM
  #340
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
He hasn't been great. But he hasn't been as bad as his detractors proclaim, either. He obviously needs time to develop. Be it at the NHL level or the AHL the organization needs to decide. What's also obvious is he has a ton of potential. He's 21. He will be fine once he has the confidence at this level to realize he can play at this level.

They also shouldn't be ramming a role down his throat that he doesn't fit. He's at his best when he's on the attack. When he was being coached a little less, and being allowed to just play a little more, he was fine. Rangers systems are a bit complicated. For a kid like him to try to develop his game and learn the system, and be flawless, is too much to ask. His performance is equally as much the coaching staff's fault as it is his own. Pull back a little and let his skill come out.

He made a couple of good defensive plays last night. He broke up a sure scoring chance coming back. He needs to be allowed to attack without feeling like if he makes one mistake he's out for the rest of the night.

The kid is playing like he has to be flawless. He's afraid to make a mistake. Because it means less playing time. Kreider, Bickel, Eminger...for some reason, the accountability only applies to guys playing to retain their spot. Meanwhile other guys can't do anything wrong in Torts' eyes. There are some guys here that have been awful this season, and haven't had to answer for it at all. Be it for political reasons or what ever. I've been in situations like that before as a player. Having to be flawless while learning a system. It's not easy.

Richards has been disgusting by his standards so far this season, the stat sheet doesn't tell the story. His play has been awful. Bad decisions with the puck. No accountability, however. Boyle has been invisible. No accountability. Staal was a -3 to start the season. Bickel was even. The next night, in a game where the Rangers allowed 6 goals, Bickel was a -1 with 3 blocked shots in 14+ minutes. One mistake and he's benched.

Double standard.

It's the perfect time for one of the veteran players to step up as a leader and take the kid under their wing. Nash, looking at you. Richards did it for Del Zotto last year. Weekes did it for Lundqvist. Stepan was allowed to play with Gaborik for a huge portion of the season last year. Dubinksy rode shotgun with Jagr, Dubinksy hadn't scored a goal in his initial call up. The equivalent would be putting Kreider with Nash or Gaborik and letting him ride shotgun.

Hartford is a disaster. That isn't exactly the right environment for your top prospect, either.

They need to add more skill over there. The organization should have looked into bringing Fast and Lindberg over. They will have to play AHL hockey at some point, anyway. They aren't both jumping straight into the NHL next season. Hrivik being concussed doesn't help matters. The AHL is a black hole for talent. Miller, Jean, Hrivik are the only forwards who look like they have a future in the NHL. There needs to be more talent down there.

There's a misconception that because you have more talent means you should be the leader. Kreider won't be going back to Hartford and suddenly lead the team to the Calder Cup. He still needs a TEAM around him. The opposition put their top pair against him, he was one of the focuses of the opposition. Rangers brass themselves mentioned this.

Or, maybe he goes back with his recent experience and it helps the team in Hartford. Who knows, but it's not exactly doing wonders for McIlrath or Miller right now, down there.

It's not an easy decision to make.

But assuredly, the easiest way to "ruin" a player, is to try to make him something he is not, and not allowing him to play to his strengths.

I still have enough confidence in this coaching staff to get the most out of him eventually.

Last night the Rangers were beating the Bruins by stretching their team out. Getting the puck back behind defenders, going on the attack. Before the Bruins were handed five thousand power plays. That attack is where Kreider typically finds success. On the rush, or in front of the net. Boyle, Pyatt, and Callahan are not the right linemates for that kind of attack. Stepan, Richards, Gaborik, and Nash are. It's finding that chemistry that helps certain players. Someone who can get him the puck. Not just dump and chase.
Great post man....agree on every point made

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01-24-2013, 02:47 PM
  #341
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So, basically, Kreider should be able to forget about the defensive side of the puck and go out there and score some goals!!! Oh, and Torts plays favorites. Right.

To think that guys like Richards and Staal havent built up collateral with Torts in hopes of making an argument for Kreider is completely ignorant. Richards and Staal are NHL players - they get leeway. Kreider? Bickel? They are clearly not established, and they'll need to prove they can consistently perform at this level. This is the problem with falling in love with a prospect - the first response is to blame everyone else.

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01-24-2013, 02:49 PM
  #342
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hopefully it works as a wake up call..

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01-24-2013, 03:05 PM
  #343
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No one said ignore defensive responsibility. Being irresponsible is one thing. But cramming complex systems down a kid's throat and expecting him to be flawless is another.

And yes, expecting a rookie to make mistakes is normal. As long as he is allowed to bounce back from it. And yes, expecting MORE from your "established" veterans is exactly what should happen. Those are the leaders of the team. They are the better players on the roster. More should be expected. There should be more accountability from them. Or were you fine with the likes of Lindros, Holik, and the abundance of other "established" veterans having no accountability.

It's the coaching staff's JOB to get the most out their players. Everyone from the rookies to the swansong veterans.

No one blamed anyone. There is equal responsibility on the staff and the player.

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01-24-2013, 03:11 PM
  #344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
He hasn't been great. But he hasn't been as bad as his detractors proclaim, either. He obviously needs time to develop. Be it at the NHL level or the AHL the organization needs to decide. What's also obvious is he has a ton of potential. He's 21. He will be fine once he has the confidence at this level to realize he can play at this level.

They also shouldn't be ramming a role down his throat that he doesn't fit. He's at his best when he's on the attack. When he was being coached a little less, and being allowed to just play a little more, he was fine. Rangers systems are a bit complicated. For a kid like him to try to develop his game and learn the system, and be flawless, is too much to ask. His performance is equally as much the coaching staff's fault as it is his own. Pull back a little and let his skill come out.

He made a couple of good defensive plays last night. He broke up a sure scoring chance coming back. He needs to be allowed to attack without feeling like if he makes one mistake he's out for the rest of the night.

The kid is playing like he has to be flawless. He's afraid to make a mistake. Because it means less playing time. Kreider, Bickel, Eminger...for some reason, the accountability only applies to guys playing to retain their spot. Meanwhile other guys can't do anything wrong in Torts' eyes. There are some guys here that have been awful this season, and haven't had to answer for it at all. Be it for political reasons or what ever. I've been in situations like that before as a player. Having to be flawless while learning a system. It's not easy.

Richards has been disgusting by his standards so far this season, the stat sheet doesn't tell the story. His play has been awful. Bad decisions with the puck. No accountability, however. Boyle has been invisible. No accountability. Staal was a -3 to start the season. Bickel was even. The next night, in a game where the Rangers allowed 6 goals, Bickel was a -1 with 3 blocked shots in 14+ minutes. One mistake and he's benched.

Double standard.

It's the perfect time for one of the veteran players to step up as a leader and take the kid under their wing. Nash, looking at you. Richards did it for Del Zotto last year. Weekes did it for Lundqvist. Stepan was allowed to play with Gaborik for a huge portion of the season last year. Dubinksy rode shotgun with Jagr, Dubinksy hadn't scored a goal in his initial call up. The equivalent would be putting Kreider with Nash or Gaborik and letting him ride shotgun.

Hartford is a disaster. That isn't exactly the right environment for your top prospect, either.

They need to add more skill over there. The organization should have looked into bringing Fast and Lindberg over. They will have to play AHL hockey at some point, anyway. They aren't both jumping straight into the NHL next season. Hrivik being concussed doesn't help matters. The AHL is a black hole for talent. Miller, Jean, Hrivik are the only forwards who look like they have a future in the NHL. There needs to be more talent down there.

There's a misconception that because you have more talent means you should be the leader. Kreider won't be going back to Hartford and suddenly lead the team to the Calder Cup. He still needs a TEAM around him. The opposition put their top pair against him, he was one of the focuses of the opposition. Rangers brass themselves mentioned this.

Or, maybe he goes back with his recent experience and it helps the team in Hartford. Who knows, but it's not exactly doing wonders for McIlrath or Miller right now, down there.

It's not an easy decision to make.

But assuredly, the easiest way to "ruin" a player, is to try to make him something he is not, and not allowing him to play to his strengths.

I still have enough confidence in this coaching staff to get the most out of him eventually.

Last night the Rangers were beating the Bruins by stretching their team out. Getting the puck back behind defenders, going on the attack. Before the Bruins were handed five thousand power plays. That attack is where Kreider typically finds success. On the rush, or in front of the net. Boyle, Pyatt, and Callahan are not the right linemates for that kind of attack. Stepan, Richards, Gaborik, and Nash are. It's finding that chemistry that helps certain players. Someone who can get him the puck. Not just dump and chase.
I believe point B is part of the reason for point A. The only thing Gernander knows how to do is to beat the right way for a no-skill 3rd line grinder into a player. That's what he was - and that's what he knows how to teach. I think he's stifling the development of any player with even a modicum of offensive skill who spends any time in Hartford.

Hartford SHOULD be a place where you can send guys to develop their games, whatever their strengths may be. It's not. Until that's fixed, I don't want Chris Kreider anywhere near that team.

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01-24-2013, 03:12 PM
  #345
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I think what Tort's said last night was very instructive. The Rangers have a process that Kreider has not had the benefit of. The Rangers have to be careful here. So much of what Kreider has can't be taught, yet he has a lot to learn.

Where is the best place for him to do that?

I'm confident that between Tort's, Schony, Sather and Gorton they can figure that out. My thinking is that he should go back to the Whale, but what the hell do I know. He could go back in the line up with the raw talent he has and put three in the back of the net in as many games.

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01-24-2013, 03:29 PM
  #346
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What pizza said. And that kinda goes back to the question dropped in the OP.

I dont think its a bad idea to have him watch a game upstairs tonight, and maybe simplify it in his mind. The thing about Kreider is that hes not an Enver Lisin out there ,hes a very intelligent hockey player and you would have to think he'll find his way into the system sooner or later.

Once he does that and is comfortable he needs to let his instincts take over because its obvious hes not using his speed and assets decisively. Thinking too much.

I know the Rangers will make the right decision but I feel like you gotta give him a few more games at this level before sending him down. That way he can bank all of that knowledge and try to apply it in the AHL for a bit.

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01-24-2013, 07:32 PM
  #347
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Watching a game in street clothes isn't the end of the world but it's not going to turn around Kreider's game either. You get better by playing and Kreider should be playing. End of story. He's better than a lot of what we have in the bottom six.

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01-24-2013, 07:48 PM
  #348
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We're playing a scrub like Rupp on the 3rd line? He's barely a 4th liner. Is Kreider really worse than Rupp? This is the personnel of a championship caliber team?
You mean in the last couple games? Here, at the NHL level? With a an analysis based in reality rather than ceiling?

Then yes, Kreider has been worse than Rupp.

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01-24-2013, 10:17 PM
  #349
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hagelin has been just as bad. I mean he was a ghost in the playoffs and he is continuing that trend

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01-24-2013, 10:53 PM
  #350
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he wasn't taken out because he sucks more than other people on the team, he was taken out because he's a kid that has huge potential and they want to give him every opportunity to improve. they're coddling him. either they're giving him a night to watch from the press box and see how things happen (ex. del zotto 2010-11), or they're sending him down so he can get the ice time that he needs to work on things. if he's not playing well defensively in the minors he's not going to in the majors.

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