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P.K. Subban resigns with Montreal, Jan. 28 (post #1)

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01-24-2013, 12:20 PM
  #276
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Originally Posted by Stonehands77 View Post
So they don't get him in a trade. But Montreal just got hosed on their cap space, making them less likely to be able to compete for other players. Really, I see marginal downside here.

And if teams start the whiny "What a violation of the game's unwritten rules" BS, then screw them. They don't want offer sheets a part of the game? Should have pushed to get that changed in the CBA. It's there, and teams like the Flyers are perfect for taking advantage of it. They've got money, they like to take risks, they want to win, and they have an organization that takes care of its players such that they should have few worries about offer sheets coming their way.
Instead of trying "hose" a team with a bad contract, why not try and trade for him since their negotiations with said player aren't going well. There is a downside to all this offer sheet talk, we wouldn't have Subban(if he does get traded) available to trade for. Offer sheet completely screws our opportunity for that. GM's don't offer sheet players to "hose" another team, they do it because they feel their offer is too substantial to be matched (i.e Weber) Montreal would easily match it, and then if they had to can buy out a player this summer to make it work salary wise.

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01-24-2013, 12:25 PM
  #277
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The one Flyers poster Gustaffson is making some pretty lofty claims out on the main board. Saying the Flyers would trade Read + 2 1st rounders for Subban. Also saying we are willing to offer sheet Subban with the demands he wants. I have no clue how he knows this info or if it is even accurate.

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01-24-2013, 12:25 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Still don't like the JVR trade.

Had we not panicked and traded him, we could've traded BSchenn for Subban about now.

Not that I like Subban, but I really liked JVR.

JVR+Weber > JVR+Subban > Schenn+Schenn

Man, I wish we got Weber so none of this mattered.
I have to say the Maple Leaf uniform fits him better, though

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01-24-2013, 12:27 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
not a fan of Subban's contract demands.
Neither am I, but at this point I'd give a young Mike Green 6m/year to replace Timonen after this season. I'm bummed about Edler though.

And I'm bummed about Weber.

And I'm bummed that we can't seem to get things going in the early parts of this season...

But you knew it had to be somebody, and we got the **** end of the deal. We'll pull it back together. I'm not overly concerned since it's only a half season. If we have a bad year, there's a high draft pick at the end of it to add to our arsenal. Laughton looks awesome, Gostisbehere is looking great, Cousins is pulling his weight, and Bryzgalov hasn't sucked so those panic attacks are gone.

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I have to say the Maple Leaf uniform fits him better, though
Not really. Coupled with that 2006-07 season, the fact that Kane is the one who ended us in 2010, and the standing ovation JVR got in Atlantic City...JVR should've been a Flyer. The Schenns seem awkward.

It may be nice having #21 hit somebody for a change, but JVR was different. He was going to struggle down the line, but he was always going to finish a Hartnell or a Knuble; somebody absolutely invaluable to your team every day in the locker room and every third day on the ice.

Sort of like Coburn emerging from his awkward youth, JVR would've done the same thing to be a steady guy on the outside. No world-beater, but someone who is really loved by a fanbase.

LSchenn can get there too. It's BSchenn I don't see that from despite the fact that he will get his points; it's inevitable.


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01-24-2013, 12:36 PM
  #280
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Neither am I, but at this point I'd give a young Mike Green 6m/year to replace Timonen after this season. I'm bummed about Edler though.

And I'm bummed about Weber.

And I'm bummed that we can't seem to get things going in the early parts of this season...

But you knew it had to be somebody, and we got the **** end of the deal. We'll pull it back together. I'm not overly concerned since it's only a half season. If we have a bad year, there's a high draft pick at the end of it to add to our arsenal. Laughton looks awesome, Gostisbehere is looking great, Cousins is pulling his weight, and Bryzgalov hasn't sucked so those panic attacks are gone.
with the cap going down and with the looming RFA deals to Giroux and Schenn after next season and Read being a UFA can we afford to make a deal like that and keep the rest of the D in place?
It would be nice to have a guy like John Carlsson around. But no we had to have Steve ****ing Eminger. LOL
People wonder why I am against all these trade proposals involving forwards for defenseman. A couple guys go down and we are stuck with Shelley and Sestito in the lineup in a very important divisional game.
its reasons why what happened to Briere, Hartnell and Schenn on why I get so ticked off on why we give up high end draft picks every freakin year. It wasnt until just recently that management finally got it.

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01-24-2013, 12:54 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by Prongo View Post
The one Flyers poster Gustaffson is making some pretty lofty claims out on the main board. Saying the Flyers would trade Read + 2 1st rounders for Subban. Also saying we are willing to offer sheet Subban with the demands he wants. I have no clue how he knows this info or if it is even accurate.
Its probably b.s. and the 1st round picks would suck but I could definitely see the Flyers making that kind of deal. They seem very comfortable with the current team and prospect pool right now going forward. They were about to hand over four straight first rounders for Weber. I would much rather it be 2 1sts starting next year.

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01-24-2013, 12:56 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by Prongo View Post
The one Flyers poster Gustaffson is making some pretty lofty claims out on the main board. Saying the Flyers would trade Read + 2 1st rounders for Subban. Also saying we are willing to offer sheet Subban with the demands he wants. I have no clue how he knows this info or if it is even accurate.
That Gustaffson guy was posting regularly after the Weber offer sheet. He was absolutely certain Nashville weren't going to match. He sort of has a way of posting that make whatever he says look like matter of fact. Doing the same with Subban now. I remember thinking the exact same thing in the summer when he was speaking about Weber.

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01-24-2013, 12:58 PM
  #283
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Trading a 1st round pick is foolish right now. Subban's a good player, but they put a lot of pressure on the kids to deliver and even though we're only 3 games in so far they aren't doing it. You give up a 1st and Subban doesn't turn it around you might have just given up a top 5 pick, plus the additional assets.

To me, the best option is to stay the course and if they aren't looking good around the deadline trade Timonen and Briere, if he'll go, to get a couple more capable prospects in the system.

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01-24-2013, 01:03 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by McNasty View Post
Trading a 1st round pick is foolish right now. Subban's a good player, but they put a lot of pressure on the kids to deliver and even though we're only 3 games in so far they aren't doing it. You give up a 1st and Subban doesn't turn it around you might have just given up a top 5 pick, plus the additional assets.

To me, the best option is to stay the course and if they aren't looking good around the deadline trade Timonen and Briere, if he'll go, to get a couple more capable prospects in the system.
A buddy and I were talking about this. It's not asinine to think Kimmo and Briere(both were willing to go to a contender) would fetch us two 1st rounders from a contending team. Look at Detroit, they could throw us a 1st and a top prospect for Kimmo(I think he is definitely worth that, and GM's and analyst seem to think he is invaluable to our team). Briere, I believe could fetch us a first as well. Maybe a 1st and a mid tier prospect just because of his contract(his offensive to a contending team in the playoffs would be a huge benefit) . We could end up with a good amount of picks, but we all know we wouldn't use them all. I don't want this team to miss the playoffs, but it wouldn't sting as much on a shortened season. Getting a high draft pick also would help this team in the defensive prospects. That does mean though, we would have to draft a defender. I guarantee if we miss the playoffs and get the 4-7th pick, we would take a forward.

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01-24-2013, 01:07 PM
  #285
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if the season started to come off the rails and the team wasnt able to recover the organization would be wise to see if they could get assets for Timonen and Briere. I would think Timonen probably gets moved first.
Briere has a NTC and would take some convincing consitering his kids and all.

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01-24-2013, 01:10 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by Prongo View Post
A buddy and I were talking about this. It's not asinine to think Kimmo and Briere(both were willing to go to a contender) would fetch us two 1st rounders from a contending team. Look at Detroit, they could throw us a 1st and a top prospect for Kimmo(I think he is definitely worth that, and GM's and analyst seem to think he is invaluable to our team). Briere, I believe could fetch us a first as well. Maybe a 1st and a mid tier prospect just because of his contract(his offensive to a contending team in the playoffs would be a huge benefit) . We could end up with a good amount of picks, but we all know we wouldn't use them all. I don't want this team to miss the playoffs, but it wouldn't sting as much on a shortened season. Getting a high draft pick also would help this team in the defensive prospects. That does mean though, we would have to draft a defender. I guarantee if we miss the playoffs and get the 4-7th pick, we would take a forward.
I agree with this.....leverage everything we have later on. No sense selling the farm out of panic. To be honest I'm more panicked about the potential loss of a lottery pick just so we can save face this season which is not looking good with the personnel we have or don't have b/c of injuries etc.

It sucks sucking but it's only 45 games left now as painful as it is so far

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01-24-2013, 01:15 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
with the cap going down and with the looming RFA deals to Giroux and Schenn after next season and Read being a UFA can we afford to make a deal like that and keep the rest of the D in place?
It would be nice to have a guy like John Carlsson around. But no we had to have Steve ****ing Eminger. LOL
People wonder why I am against all these trade proposals involving forwards for defenseman. A couple guys go down and we are stuck with Shelley and Sestito in the lineup in a very important divisional game.
its reasons why what happened to Briere, Hartnell and Schenn on why I get so ticked off on why we give up high end draft picks every freakin year. It wasnt until just recently that management finally got it.
(Let's not go back to Eminger. I once had basically a thesis on how every bad decision Holgrem has made in terms of signings and trades has stemmed from that one trade for Eminger. Ugh.)

Well let's see...

Let's make a VERY crazy assumption and say the Flyers management do nothing interesting this offseason. Let's also assume we get Subban to sign at 6m prying him away from Montreal for only futures. Let's say a 1st + Gostisbehere. Unrealistic I know, but play along.

* denotes ELC bonus cushion price
~ denotes new contract

2013 OFFSEASON

Hartnell (4.75) - Giroux (3.75) - Voracek (4.25)
Simmonds (3.98) - Couturier (0.93*) - Briere (6.50)
Read (0.90) - Laughton (0.93*) - Schenn (0.90*)
Talbot (1.75) - Wellwood (0.80~) - Rinaldo (0.60~)
Sestito (0.60~)

Coburn (4.50) - Grossmann (3.50)
Subban (6.00) - Schenn (3.60)
Meszaros (4.00) - Gustafsson (0.90~)
Gervais (0.83)

Bryzgalov (5.67)
Leighton (0.90~)

TOTAL: 60.54
CAP: 64.30
SPACE: 03.76

2014 OFFSEASON

Hartnell (4.75) - Giroux (6.75~) - Voracek (4.25)
Simmonds (3.98) - Couturier (3.00~) - Briere (6.50)
Cousins (0.93*) - Laughton (0.93*) - Schenn (3.00~)
Talbot (1.75) - Wellwood (0.80~) - Rinaldo (0.60~)
Sestito (0.60~)

Coburn (4.50) - Grossmann (3.50)
Subban (6.00) - Schenn (3.60)
Manning (0.80~) - Gustafsson (0.90~)
Bourdon (0.60~)

Bryzgalov (5.67)
Leighton (0.90~)

TOTAL: 64.31
CAP: TBD

2015 OFFSEASON

Hartnell (4.75) - Giroux (6.75~) - Voracek (4.25)
Simmonds (3.98) - Couturier (3.00~) - Schenn (3.00~)
Cousins (0.93*) - Laughton (3.00~) - xxxxxxxx
Talbot (1.75) - Wellwood (0.80~) - Rinaldo (0.60~)
Sestito (0.60~)

Coburn (4.50) - Grossmann (3.50)
Subban (6.00) - Schenn (3.60)
Gostisbehere (0.90*) - xxxxxxx
xxxxxxxx

Bryzgalov (5.67)
Leighton (0.90~)

TOTAL: 57.98
CAP: TBD

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01-24-2013, 01:18 PM
  #288
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Wait Flyers not making a big splash for a free agent?? There is no way anyone could play along with this because there is no way it happens.

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01-24-2013, 01:22 PM
  #289
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Wait Flyers not making a big splash for a free agent?? There is no way anyone could play along with this because there is no way it happens.
You mean like this past offseason?

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01-24-2013, 01:24 PM
  #290
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You mean like this past offseason?
Yea but they made the effort. They were right there with all the big free agents. It didn't turn out this off season, but next off season we have more big fish coming out(Mckenzie even said he thinks Perry hits the UFA market). There is no way the Flyers don't go all in for a scoring winger of his caliber to play along side Giroux.

8 to 9 million Perry could grab on the open market.

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01-24-2013, 02:31 PM
  #291
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Es PK as elite as people say he is? I mean I know he didn't stand out to me defensively during Flyers/Habs games. I remember he controlled the play a lot and was a good QB. Obviously good at puck moving. Can I get a scouting report on him?

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01-24-2013, 02:55 PM
  #292
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Es PK as elite as people say he is? I mean I know he didn't stand out to me defensively during Flyers/Habs games. I remember he controlled the play a lot and was a good QB. Obviously good at puck moving. Can I get a scouting report on him?
As of now, he's certainly a top pairing offensive QB. The thing about him is almost everything he does is average to above average currently (that is, no real weakness, with a couple of elite skills (shot/skating).

He has a hard shot, good passing, great skating, physical, good offensive and good defensive instincts.

He has lapses from aggressiveness, both in rushing the puck and being physical, but has a pretty good hockey IQ overall, with decent size to boot.

He's exactly what the Flyers need; a complete defenseman, but he has the chance to be elite because of his tools. Will he get there? Maybe, but he's at least a top paring now, which will be a big boost to the D-Corps here, and knock everybody down one slot to where they should be.

He can already put up 30+ points and QB a PP - and Flyers may not be good at developing d-men from scratch, but they are very good at turning already established NHL d-men and maximizing their potential (Carle, Coburn).

If the Flyers have a chance to get him, they definitely should go for it. They dont' become available very often.

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01-24-2013, 03:17 PM
  #293
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Yea but they made the effort. They were right there with all the big free agents. It didn't turn out this off season, but next off season we have more big fish coming out(Mckenzie even said he thinks Perry hits the UFA market). There is no way the Flyers don't go all in for a scoring winger of his caliber to play along side Giroux.

8 to 9 million Perry could grab on the open market.
Would Giroux really want Perry on his team? Maybe they can forgive and forget like Hatcher and Roenick, but I don't know.

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01-24-2013, 04:00 PM
  #294
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As of now, he's certainly a top pairing offensive QB. The thing about him is almost everything he does is average to above average currently (that is, no real weakness, with a couple of elite skills (shot/skating).

He has a hard shot, good passing, great skating, physical, good offensive and good defensive instincts.

He has lapses from aggressiveness, both in rushing the puck and being physical, but has a pretty good hockey IQ overall, with decent size to boot.

He's exactly what the Flyers need; a complete defenseman, but he has the chance to be elite because of his tools. Will he get there? Maybe, but he's at least a top paring now, which will be a big boost to the D-Corps here, and knock everybody down one slot to where they should be.

He can already put up 30+ points and QB a PP - and Flyers may not be good at developing d-men from scratch, but they are very good at turning already established NHL d-men and maximizing their potential (Carle, Coburn).

If the Flyers have a chance to get him, they definitely should go for it. They dont' become available very often.
Much appreciated, thank you. The was he was being described sounded as though he had already transcended to elite, which I didn't think happened.

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01-24-2013, 04:28 PM
  #295
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Would Giroux really want Perry on his team? Maybe they can forgive and forget like Hatcher and Roenick, but I don't know.
Wouldn't be much of a Captain if he held a personal grudge that hurt the team. Clearly Corey Perry would help us.

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01-24-2013, 04:35 PM
  #296
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Offense has been our biggest problem, but I'd argue most of the issues with it have stemmed from the dmen rather than the forwards. We are SORELY missing Carle as a dman that can do something other than slap the puck up the boards for zone entry and we are SORELY missing a younger Timonen as a PP QB.

Also, the combination of Grossman and Schenn (while I have liked both thus far) and their lack of foot speed has killed Lavi's offensive scheme because they can't pinch and keep play alive like his uptempo, aggresive style requires. Against the Penguins we had dmen back at the red line for fear of giving up a breakaway while we were cycling down low in the offensive zone - it was insane.

Long story short, I think adding Subban could be the shot that this team needs to 'click'. Unfortunately, I think any hope of getting him in an OS is pie in the sky and I shudder to think what it would take in a trade (especially since they'd likely want our 1st - which may very well end up as a high one in a deep draft year if things continue like this).

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01-24-2013, 09:59 PM
  #297
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We are SORELY missing Carle as a dman that can do something other than slap the puck up the boards for zone entry and we are SORELY missing a younger Timonen as a PP QB.

Also, the combination of Grossman and Schenn (while I have liked both thus far) and their lack of foot speed has killed Lavi's offensive scheme because they can't pinch and keep play alive like his uptempo, aggresive style requires.
Do you still think this after tonight? Passing was tremendous through the neutral zone. Timonen was a grand master PP QB. Grossmann might be a bit slow, but positionally he was fantastic tonight, as was Cooter (as opposed to the first three games where he was largely responsible for two goals against).

The lack of footspeed might be a positive: They allowed 18 shots against. They challenged the blue line. Made a tired team fight for ice in all three zones.

Luke Schenn was jumping into play-- as were the other D-men, but it was measured. They were sweeping pucks off sticks into corners, minus one or two soft passes, the passing was decent. Schenn looked sound.

Real happy with the D men tonight.

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01-24-2013, 10:14 PM
  #298
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Subban really is the missing link defensively for the Flyers: an up-tempo offensive-minded defenseman with a hard accurate point shot. It would kill the Flyers to get and sign him, though. Marc Bergevin will want a king's ransom.

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01-24-2013, 10:18 PM
  #299
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The defenseman we need is him :


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01-24-2013, 10:25 PM
  #300
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The defenseman we need is him :

Everyone knows this. Unfortunately it's not an option.

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