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Philadelphia Phillies (MLB): The "Ruf"fled Offseason Thread

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Old
01-24-2013, 04:04 PM
  #901
JDinkalage Morgoone
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
They had Gavin Floyd, Gio Gonzalez, and Carlos Carrasco right? Floyd was supposed to be better than Hamels at one point, and Carrasco was supposed to be a top of the rotation starter.
This. I won't call this trade a win yet. I know Medlen had a great year last season but so did Jair Jurrjens a few years back and look where he is now. Anything can happen.

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01-24-2013, 04:07 PM
  #902
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
They had Gavin Floyd, Gio Gonzalez, and Carlos Carrasco right? Floyd was supposed to be better than Hamels at one point, and Carrasco was supposed to be a top of the rotation starter.
Yes but none of those names were established young aces with the Phillies at that point. Big difference between having ace potential prospects and young pitchers who have already broken through. Medlen and Minor are already established at the MLB level and damn good as well.

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01-24-2013, 04:13 PM
  #903
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Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone View Post
This. I won't call this trade a win yet. I know Medlen had a great year last season but so did Jair Jurrjens a few years back and look where he is now. Anything can happen.
Comparing jurrjens and medlen is pretty bad. Jurrjens never really had big league stuff and his low era resulted from having an unrealistic ba/bip once that luck change he flamed out. He always walked way too many people as well. Nothing besides medlens win total really jumps out at him being a one year wonder.

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01-24-2013, 04:31 PM
  #904
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Originally Posted by TheIceman26 View Post
Comparing jurrjens and medlen is pretty bad. Jurrjens never really had big league stuff and his low era resulted from having an unrealistic ba/bip once that luck change he flamed out. He always walked way too many people as well. Nothing besides medlens win total really jumps out at him being a one year wonder.
Never really had big league stuff? The guy was pretty decent most of his career. Nothing going off the charts, but he certainly has (or at least had) major league stuff.

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01-24-2013, 04:45 PM
  #905
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Never really had big league stuff? The guy was pretty decent most of his career. Nothing going off the charts, but he certainly has (or at least had) major league stuff.
His career best K:BB ratio was 2.05 with a career average of 1.92. I think saying he didn't have ML stuff was hyperbole, but he certainly didn't have *good* ML stuff (or command). Jurrjens was a product of an impressive 78% career GB rate and a career .78 HR:9 coupled with a pretty generous (especially for a GB pitcher) career .291 BABIP (including 2 seasons of .273 and .274).

Without drudging through stats to back up my postulate, I suspect that Atlanta turned ALOT of DPs with Jurrgens on the mound - particuliarly after one of his many free passes. With a good defensive infield I think he is a fine #4, personally.

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01-24-2013, 05:01 PM
  #906
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Originally Posted by CootaRoo View Post
His career best K:BB ratio was 2.05 with a career average of 1.92. I think saying he didn't have ML stuff was hyperbole, but he certainly didn't have *good* ML stuff (or command). Jurrjens was a product of an impressive 78% career GB rate and a career .78 HR:9 coupled with a pretty generous (especially for a GB pitcher) career .291 BABIP (including 2 seasons of .273 and .274).

Without drudging through stats to back up my postulate, I suspect that Atlanta turned ALOT of DPs with Jurrgens on the mound - particuliarly after one of his many free passes. With a good defensive infield I think he is a fine #4, personally.
Oh that's fine. I am not saying the guy is something great or anything like that, but to say that he didn't have big league stuff is silly. He may have benefited from any number of things, but you don't put up his numbers (which I know, are not that great at all) if you don't have big league stuff.

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01-24-2013, 05:21 PM
  #907
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
but you don't put up his numbers (which I know, are not that great at all) if you don't have big league stuff.
Actually his "numbers" ARE great (2 seasons with <3 ERA and a career 3.62 ERA) its his "peripherals" that are pedestrian. I, for one, don't think Worley's "numbers" are sustainable for him over a career (roughly the same career ERA as Jurrjens - 3.5), but even he has better "peripherals" (2.45 K:BB ratio, .7 HR:9, etc.) than he does.

All of this (coupled with the .27ish BABIP in his 2 career years) are what, I'm sure, Iceman was trying to get at.

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01-24-2013, 05:23 PM
  #908
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Originally Posted by CootaRoo View Post
His career best K:BB ratio was 2.05 with a career average of 1.92. I think saying he didn't have ML stuff was hyperbole, but he certainly didn't have *good* ML stuff (or command). Jurrjens was a product of an impressive 78% career GB rate and a career .78 HR:9 coupled with a pretty generous (especially for a GB pitcher) career .291 BABIP (including 2 seasons of .273 and .274).

Without drudging through stats to back up my postulate, I suspect that Atlanta turned ALOT of DPs with Jurrgens on the mound - particuliarly after one of his many free passes. With a good defensive infield I think he is a fine #4, personally.
I grew up a braves and phils fan as a kid since braves were always on tbs around here and I love baseball. He has no command, and you're correct atl turned a ton of double plays but his stuff was just ok but once major leaguers got used to him he got smoked and they became more patient in turn leading to his last season which was awful. Atlanta's infield was great that year though. Medlen is a completely different and better pitcher is what more I was trying to say.

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01-24-2013, 05:24 PM
  #909
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CootaRoo View Post
Actually his "numbers" ARE great (2 seasons with <3 ERA and a career 3.62 ERA) its his "peripherals" that are pedestrian. I, for one, don't think Worley's "numbers" are sustainable for him over a career (roughly the same career ERA as Jurrjens - 3.5), but even he has better "peripherals" (2.45 K:BB ratio, .7 HR:9, etc.) than he does.

All of this (coupled with the .27ish BABIP in his 2 career years) are what, I'm sure, Iceman was trying to get at.
I wouldn't call them great. I think he had respectable stuff, and he had respectable numbers.

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01-24-2013, 05:27 PM
  #910
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I wouldn't call them great. I think he had respectable stuff, and he had respectable numbers.
Sure he had ok stuff but he had no control and that'll burn you at the major league level so it wasn't surprising to see him come down to earth ..what I really meant.

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01-24-2013, 05:46 PM
  #911
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I wouldn't call them great. I think he had respectable stuff, and he had respectable numbers.
A 2.6 ERA isn't "great"? Tough crowd...

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Old
01-25-2013, 07:55 AM
  #912
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Originally Posted by TheIceman26 View Post
Yes but none of those names were established young aces with the Phillies at that point. Big difference between having ace potential prospects and young pitchers who have already broken through. Medlen and Minor are already established at the MLB level and damn good as well.
Medlen and Minor are not established young aces either though. Minor hasn't had an ERA under 4 yet, and Medlen had a very lucky year as far as HR and stranding runners, his walk rate is pretty crazy though.

However, neither of them are really that young. Minor is Carrasco's age, and last year they had similar numbers. Medlen will be 28 by the end of the year, the same age as Gio Gonzalez, who is definitively the more proven pitcher at this point. Both Minor and Medlen only have about 1 1/2 seasons worth of innings so far.

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01-25-2013, 08:01 AM
  #913
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
Medlen and Minor are not established young aces either though. Minor hasn't had an ERA under 4 yet, and Medlen had a very lucky year as far as HR and stranding runners, his walk rate is pretty crazy though.

However, neither of them are really that young. Minor is Carrasco's age, and last year they had similar numbers. Medlen will be 28 by the end of the year, the same age as Gio Gonzalez, who is definitively the more proven pitcher at this point. Both Minor and Medlen only have about 1 1/2 seasons worth of innings so far.
Your second paragraph was what I was basically trying to say. Jurrjens was a guy I could think of off the top of my head that pitched well for the Braves. I just can't see Medlen coming close to last year and I was never really impressed by Minor.

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01-25-2013, 09:34 AM
  #914
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Back onto the Phillies....

They just signed a 16 year old LA pitcher, Lewis Alezones. 6'3 155 and already throwing 90 MPH. I shudder to think how hard he'll be throwing at age 20 when he is 195 lbs.

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01-25-2013, 09:38 AM
  #915
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Originally Posted by CootaRoo View Post
Back onto the Phillies....

They just signed a 16 year old LA pitcher, Lewis Alezones. 6'3 155 and already throwing 90 MPH. I shudder to think how hard he'll be throwing at age 20 when he is 195 lbs.
That's pretty exciting. I think one of the minor league signings RAJ made this season could be really helpful down the stretch.

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01-25-2013, 09:39 AM
  #916
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That's pretty exciting. I think one of the minor league signings RAJ made this season could be really helpful down the stretch.
Oh, that kid is an international signing going straight to rookie ball. He has like a 1% chance of ever reaching the majors, but I was still pretty intrigued by how hard a lanky 16 year old was throwing over in Venezuela.

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01-25-2013, 09:42 AM
  #917
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Oh, that kid is an international signing going straight to rookie ball. He has like a 1% chance of ever reaching the majors, but I was still pretty intrigued by how hard a lanky 16 year old was throwing over in Venezuela.
I didn't mean him, I was thinking more Rodrigo Lopez or Zach Miner possibly contributing.

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01-25-2013, 10:43 AM
  #918
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I didn't mean him, I was thinking more Rodrigo Lopez or Zach Miner possibly contributing.
I think they signed Lopez to protect Biddle et al's arb clocks should disaster strike in the rotation. Atm I gotta believe he is the 7/8 starter behind Pettibone at least for the AAA call-up.

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01-25-2013, 03:07 PM
  #919
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Originally Posted by CootaRoo View Post
Back onto the Phillies....

They just signed a 16 year old LA pitcher, Lewis Alezones. 6'3 155 and already throwing 90 MPH. I shudder to think how hard he'll be throwing at age 20 when he is 195 lbs.
Do we know what his bonus was? The Phils have historically not spent the big bucks in Latin America but they've done pretty well with low and mid-range signings there.

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01-25-2013, 10:49 PM
  #920
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Do we know what his bonus was? The Phils have historically not spent the big bucks in Latin America but they've done pretty well with low and mid-range signings there.
I'm pretty sure it was 300K. AFAIK the new CBA severely restricts international signing money, so idk we'll be seeing any crazy signing bonuses anymore.

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01-26-2013, 11:58 AM
  #921
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Originally Posted by CootaRoo View Post
Back onto the Phillies....

They just signed a 16 year old LA pitcher, Lewis Alezones. 6'3 155 and already throwing 90 MPH. I shudder to think how hard he'll be throwing at age 20 when he is 195 lbs.
16 throwing 90 at 155lbs. Dam. Now that he is property of a major league club he will now get the proper training that he may need to improve things such as his mechanics and health care. I to can only wonder where he top ends out.

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01-29-2013, 02:19 PM
  #922
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So is anyone else kind of hoping to see Ryan Howard's name down the road as one of the 11 out of 20 players not released in the Miami report this morning?

Anything to get out of that contract...

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01-29-2013, 02:37 PM
  #923
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So is anyone else kind of hoping to see Ryan Howard's name down the road as one of the 11 out of 20 players not released in the Miami report this morning?

Anything to get out of that contract...
Nope. And who cares about his contract. Big market, no cap, no problem.

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01-29-2013, 02:53 PM
  #924
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Big market, no cap, no problem.
Why have the Phillies habitually been one of the cheapest in the entire league for spending in scouting, draft slot signings and international signings over the past 5 seasons?

Why have they habitually vowed to not cross the luxury tax line that Selig drew in the sand?

Why did Amaro not break the bank on the Uptons, Hamilton or any other number of FAs this past offseason?

The organization recognizes that their recent run as the "Yankees of the NL" is coming to a close, it'll help the average bandwagon fan to accept it as well sooner than later.

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01-29-2013, 05:20 PM
  #925
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So is anyone else kind of hoping to see Ryan Howard's name down the road as one of the 11 out of 20 players not released in the Miami report this morning?

Anything to get out of that contract...
So, you want one of the best players in team history to have been a steroid user? Okay then.

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