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P.K. Subban Thread - Edition 6.0 - #BlameSubban

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01-24-2013, 04:21 PM
  #701
LyricalLyricist
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Right, Galchenyuk won't get a pay cut, but if he gets back-to-back 70 point seasons and they offer him a long-term rather than a 2-year bridge contract, then there's a double standard.

A lot of people are saying we need to underpay Subban so that we can underpay Galchenyuk, Tinordi, etc.

IMO those posters have a loser mentality. I am all for paying Tinordi, Beaulieu, etc 5 million a year if they earn it. I would be 100% ecstatic to see them get 5 million dollar/year paychecks if they earn it as Subban has earned it.
back to back 70 points seasons is elite and does not deserve a bridge contract. Being a #2 D-man is not elite. Subban is close but not at that level.

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01-24-2013, 04:22 PM
  #702
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Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
"... No one wants to be in this position. Of course you always try to get the best contract but a guy in his position does not have a lot of leverage so he needs to say yes to a transition contract. Then you aim for higher and better terms; that’s the path 95% of the players followed...”
Josh Gorges

Labbé interviewed Gorges in English, translated it in French... and I translated it back in English! The nuances are probably lost in the process but the bulk of Gorges’ opinion is respected.

Ref.: http://www.lapresse.ca/sports/hockey...ans-subban.php

If the Canadiens give a blank check to Subban, what will happen with Galchenyuk, Beaulieu... when they reach the same stage? Subban is no Crosby so I don’t think Mtl should completely overlook the fact that he is a freakin RFA player with no rights to arbitration
Yeah I posted that in the last thread, it's an interesting quote. Personally I don't believe Subban is looking for a blank check, and I won't assume anything, but I digress.

It still doesn't remove the fact that Subban is due good money. His stats prove it. He played #1 minutes for two years now on a very cheap contract.


Like Gorges said (and I agree I'm sure a lot of nuances were lost in translation), you always try to get the best contract possible. It's the nature of the beast.

I disagree that he HAS to say yes to a bridge contract. Besides, those bridge contracts usually end up costing us more in the long run (Plekanec, Gorges). An example of a successful bridge contract would probably be Pacioretty, but at this point Subban has proven more than Pacioretty did at the time that his ELC expired.

So many people got more than a bridge contract coming off their ELC. I know Bergevin likes this philosophy, but if a guy like Hjalmarsson can sign a longer extension off his ELC, why can't Subban? He certainly has the upside, numbers and talent to deserve it.

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01-24-2013, 04:22 PM
  #703
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That says very little considering doughty got an 8 year 7 mil per year deal.
It says a lot actually. They wouldn't bother saying "PK isn't looking for Doughty money" if PK was asking for 6.75 million.

I take it as meaning that PK is asking for no more than 6 million per year, and possibly less.

Add in the 2-3 million split, and that confirms that Bergevin is seeking to radically underpay Subban.

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01-24-2013, 04:23 PM
  #704
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Guys I was just kidding, by the way...

I hope we sign Subbie-doo and he does the Subbie-doo shuffle on his 1st shift back.


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01-24-2013, 04:24 PM
  #705
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
It says a lot actually. They wouldn't bother saying "PK isn't looking for Doughty money" if PK was asking for 6.75 million.

I take it as meaning that PK is asking for no more than 6 million per year, and possibly less.

Add in the 2-3 million split, and that confirms that Bergevin is seeking to radically underpay Subban.
Is the 2-3 million split per year or for the length of the contract? I can't believe it's per year.

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01-24-2013, 04:25 PM
  #706
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
back to back 70 points seasons is elite and does not deserve a bridge contract. Being a #2 D-man is not elite. Subban is close but not at that level.
Subban is already a #2 on a typical above-average team and a #1 on a typical below average team.

That's approximately what Galchenyuk would be if he has back-to-back 70 point seasons. Maybe you'd like to be pedantic and argue that the threshold is at 65 rather than 70 points.

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01-24-2013, 04:27 PM
  #707
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Originally Posted by Harpo View Post
Is the 2-3 million split per year or for the length of the contract? I can't believe it's per year.
I think it's per year.

Occam's razor thus concludes that Subban wants ~5.5 million a year, whereas Bergevin is offering ~3 million a year.

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01-24-2013, 04:27 PM
  #708
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Subban is already a #2 on a typical above-average team and a #1 on a typical below average team.

That's approximately what Galchenyuk would be if he has back-to-back 70 point seasons. Maybe you'd like to be pedantic and argue that the threshold is at 65 rather than 70 points.
So 38 points per season makes you a #1 ?

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01-24-2013, 04:27 PM
  #709
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not sure if this was posted

http://www.journaldemontreal.com/201...une-resolution

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01-24-2013, 04:29 PM
  #710
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
It says a lot actually. They wouldn't bother saying "PK isn't looking for Doughty money" if PK was asking for 6.75 million.

I take it as meaning that PK is asking for no more than 6 million per year, and possibly less.

Add in the 2-3 million split, and that confirms that Bergevin is seeking to radically underpay Subban.
It could also mean total money, that subban is not asking for 56 mil but could be asking for 36 mil(6 mil for 6 years).

I doubt he is, just saying the point is it doesn't mean much.

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01-24-2013, 04:29 PM
  #711
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Originally Posted by Habtchum View Post
So 38 points per season makes you a #1 ?
I know you are being facetious, but there is so much more to being a defender than just points. A pro-rated 40+ season is nice, but PK excels in all aspects of the game. And that's the key to his value.

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01-24-2013, 04:29 PM
  #712
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So 38 points per season makes you a #1 ?
38 points per season makes you someone who is not watching enough hockey and not looking at the right stats. But, to play along - yeah, Subban was in the top 30 point producers on defence last season.

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01-24-2013, 04:31 PM
  #713
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From aboves same source:

@JFChaumont: #Habs: Don Meehan en entrevue au téléphone: « P.K. m’a demandé de trouver un terrain d’entente rapidement » - Meehan

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01-24-2013, 04:31 PM
  #714
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Originally Posted by Habtchum View Post
So 38 points per season makes you a #1 ?
It's been explained many times on this forum, but I'll do it again.

Subban is solid offensively, but he is not elite. He is a #2 or #3 offensively depending on what team you put him on. He got a lot of points on the PP last year because he had a lot of ice time. However, he does have the potential to be offensively elite.

He is already elite defensively. When he was drafted in 2007 he told the media that "PK" stands for "penalty killer", and people thought it was a cocky joke because he was perceived as a potential power play specialist in the mold of marc-andre bergeron. However, he is amazing at shutdown duty and penalty killing ability. A #1 on most teams in the NHL, maybe a #2 on a few teams.

Basically, he is a #1 defensively and a #2 offensively, even on good to great teams, and this is at age 23.

Read this article,, he's done a greatt job explaining things:
http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/20...real-canadiens

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01-24-2013, 04:32 PM
  #715
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Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
38 points per season makes you someone who is not watching enough hockey and not looking at the right stats.
Subban was #1 by default in the last couple of years in Montreal.

The guy has flaws and he needs more time to reach his full potential. First of all, cut on the useless penalties, and turnovers.

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01-24-2013, 04:32 PM
  #716
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I think it's per year.

Occam's razor thus concludes that Subban wants ~5.5 million a year, whereas Bergevin is offering ~3 million a year.
If that's the case, then obviously it's for a short term contract. A 4 million contract for 2 years would be allright for everyone, no idea why any side would refuse this.

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01-24-2013, 04:33 PM
  #717
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Originally Posted by beaverBFP View Post
From aboves same source:

@JFChaumont: #Habs: Don Meehan en entrevue au téléphone: « P.K. m’a demandé de trouver un terrain d’entente rapidement » - Meehan
First good news since a while !

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01-24-2013, 04:33 PM
  #718
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Originally Posted by Habtchum View Post
So 38 points per season makes you a #1 ?
I guess you're one of those people who thinks that Karlsson is the best defender in the league. You know, when you're a defender your job before everything is to DEFEND, not produce points. If PK can be solid defensively and give you almost 0.5PPG, he's a keeper and no doubts a #1 in the NHL.

Without being a homer PK is a #1 on 18-21 teams in the NHL.

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01-24-2013, 04:34 PM
  #719
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Originally Posted by beaverBFP View Post
From aboves same source:

@JFChaumont: #Habs: Don Meehan en entrevue au téléphone: « P.K. m’a demandé de trouver un terrain d’entente rapidement » - Meehan
Translation? Sorry guys...

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01-24-2013, 04:35 PM
  #720
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Originally Posted by Chris Cutter View Post
I guess you're one of those people who thinks that Karlsson is the best defender in the league. You know, when you're a defender your job before everything is to DEFEND, not produce points. If PK can be solid defensively and give you almost 0.5PPG, he's a keeper and no doubts a #1 in the NHL.

Without being a homer PK is a #1 on 18-21 teams in the NHL.
I never said he would not become a real #1 . For the moment he has not reached that potential yet.

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01-24-2013, 04:36 PM
  #721
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Translation? Sorry guys...
PK asked Meehan to look (negotiate) for an agreement a.s.a.p.

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01-24-2013, 04:36 PM
  #722
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Can someone please explain to me in short why isn't PK signing his new contract ? What's the issue ?

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01-24-2013, 04:36 PM
  #723
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Originally Posted by Habtchum View Post
So 38 points per season makes you a #1 ?
Well, he was 28th in the league last year in D scoring. There are 30 teams. Do the math?

(Actually, there were I think 6 or so teams who had multiple D in the top 30, so clearly the duplicate entries can't all be #1... some of them are by default #2 on their team... so Subban slides up to something like #22 amongst #1 D's).

And that's just on offense. He was better than that on defense, I'd say.

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01-24-2013, 04:37 PM
  #724
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It only mitigates the risk if you don't burn all bridges with the player trying to get him to take the bridge contract, though. If the battle becomes too bitter or the sides too entrenched on the issue, you've just turned "risk" into a full-blown realization of failure.

(And it had been looking like we might indeed be going that way. Fingers crossed that something more positive is now afoot).
This is a great, great comment.

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01-24-2013, 04:37 PM
  #725
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Originally Posted by Habtchum View Post
PK asked Meehan to look (negotiate) for an agreement a.s.a.p.
Thanks!! There has got to be a middle ground...

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